Why Valve games are not coming to Macs..

[makku]

In this article, http://games.kikizo.com/features/gab...v_sep07_p1.asp, Gabe Newell talks about why it is not happening.

While I don't game on my Macs, I think Apple should definately listen to these developers. The programming techniques and accumulated knowleged from this will be good not only for games but running other process intensive applications as well.

[Sijmen]

While the article stated that Apple didn't do what they wanted them to, but it's too bad they didn't say what they actually asked Apple. I'm curious.

[phillipjfry]

Originally Posted by Sijmen

While the article stated that Apple didn't do what they wanted them to, but it's too bad they didn't say what they actually asked Apple. I'm curious.

I'm sure it's a multi-years worth of mess dealing with a faceless company (eg. one where you can't really talk with anyone who can really push to make a difference). Regardless, the macs are becoming more popular and is going to have to seriously take a good look at their gaming side and try to help it mature a little more. Maybe we will see more games come out with Leopard/OpenGL2

[Nermal]

Surely it should be up to the porting house to decide what's missing from OS X. Glenda (Aspyr) was saying that they sometimes have their developers go over to Apple and work with the OpenGL team to get things sorted out, and it seems to happen. I think MacSoft did the same; I seem to recall that one of the Panther updates was Halo-focussed.

[GavinTing]

Well, I guess apple just doesn't care?

You could always just use bootcamp to play..

[Blacky]

I wonder what they asked apple and why they can't do what blizzard, epic and id software can.

[abackus]

Originally Posted by Blacky

I wonder what they asked apple and why they can't do what blizzard, epic and id software can.

You forgot to mention EA Games.

EA Games: These games are simply the exact same Windows executables, just running via emulation through a commercial WINE implementation. This is not acceptable. I want my games to run at full acceleration. It doesn't matter that WINE runs ok on Intel Macs.

Epic and ID: I haven't tried these because I really wish that I could transfer my software license for my Windows version over so I don't have to pay another $50 for games that are years old and selling for $10-20 on Windows now. That's about like buying the brand new (being sarcastic here) Halo 2 for Windows.

Blizzard: These guys do a remarkable job of simultaneously releasing patches and new releases on both Windows and Mac platforms. In fact, the recent patch introduced a Mac-only feature of recording video in-game. How cool is that?

Valve: I completely believe Gabe's comments about gaming concerns and suggestions being ignored. Case in point is an issue that's been plaguing WoW players on the MacBook Pro for months. If you install a recent MBP update, your video becomes choppy in game. The last thing I heard is that Apple is working with Nvidia to remedy the issue. That was at least a month ago. I can't wait to play WoW full screen again.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...=1&pageNo=1#17


When it comes to hardware though, my Macbook Pro screams when I switch to Windows XP. Very smooth framerates at full 1920x1200 resolution in all of my Steam/Valve games.

[sanford]

Originally Posted by Sijmen

While the article stated that Apple didn't do what they wanted them to, but it's too bad they didn't say what they actually asked Apple. I'm curious.

It doesn't matter what they asked. Gaming is not now and never will be a priority at Apple unless Apple decides, unwisely in my opinion, to make their own proprietary console platform. At the modern Apple, gaming begins and ends with Tetris -- simple, brief diversions.

I worked for a major publisher of PC, Mac and console titles -- think top three bestselling PlayStation 2 titles for the entire life of the platform to date and you'll be on the right track -- at a time when we entirely dropped Mac support for our titles, including killing in-process Mac ports. We hadn't even asked for anything: they had one publisher liaison for games who was enthusiastic but couldn't get anything accomplished within the greater Apple because no one else at Apple cared. The gamers at Apple went home and played on consoles or Windows PCs.

Microsoft on the other hand has developed much technology and employed various marketing strategies to support game development. In fact, there was some enthusiasm for games building at Apple when Bungie showed off Halo, the initial development platform being G4-based Macs. Then Microsoft bought Halo, put Bungie entirely on Halo for their Xbox console, massively delayed Halo for PC and would have killed Halo for Mac altogether except for the fact the Bungie guys went nuts at the thought and the engine had already been developed on the Mac and actually ported over to the PC-based Xbox architecture. So they went ahead and released it for Mac. But that about killed enthusiasm for innovative games on the Mac at Apple: basically, we get one, a big one, and Microsoft "steals" it.

At this point, despite an entrenched PC game following that won't die out en masse for a long, long time, Windows gaming is a losing proposition: the constant system upgrades are expensive and a hassle. With the exception of a lot of real-time strategy titles, Windows gaming exists mostly as a proving ground for technology that will be ported over to current generation consoles. And with the capabilities of current generation HD game platforms for ports and original development, who really needs the PC experience but gaming technophiles? The new consoles provide most of the experience at much less than half the cost, if you consider the upgrading you'd do to a PC over a console's life cycle.

There's no reason for Apple to pursue gaming now. If you really want a Mac that plays AAA titles, buy an iMac with a good GPU, or a Mac Pro with an upgradable GPU on a card, buy some Windows flavor, install it and dual boot. Otherwise buy a current generation HD console. Apple would be pursuing a mostly static market that will move very few Macs in the future. Likewise, there's no reason for Valve to support Macs, as even casual gamers with Macs only will buy into HD consoles and supporting those consoles supports gamers with Macs.

[sikkinixx]

While I'm sure his reason is at least partially correct, the other half reason it isn't coming to Macs is because Gabe Newell is a whiny douchebag who needs to shut up and make his damn games instead of making everyone wait 2 years for "episodic content"....it's not episodic if you need to wait close to a full game dev cycle to play it (for 6 hours)

[ravenvii]

When I read that article, my BS detector is going off.

They do make good games, but they sure sound like self-entitled whiners.

[Soulstorm]

I'm sorry, but I just can't take that article seriously. Unreal engine 3 is coming to the mac, and they just say that Apple doesn't hear game devs? What about Aspyr, MacSoft and the other developers? What about EA with command & conquer, and Blizzard?

I'm pretty sure that they asked Apple to alter their OpenGL implementation so that it conforms more with the DirectX standards. And that's not going to happen since OpenGL has its own standards.

Oh, and... I think that now we can't complain about games with poor performance on the Mac OS X. I think that the latest games are all with good performance. So, I can't believe we are still hearing these crap from Valve. These are all lame excuses for not being able to port a game to OpenGL.

[slughead]

Originally Posted by Soulstorm

Oh, and... I think that now we can't complain about games with poor performance on the Mac OS X. I think that the latest games are all with good performance. So, I can't believe we are still hearing these crap from Valve. These are all lame excuses for not being able to port a game to OpenGL.

Apple downgraded the video cards in the new iMacs Vs the old ones.

Maybe valve asked for at least SOME macs out there to be able to RUN some of their games, before they release them.

The Macbook can't even run Counterstrike Source.

[mdriftmeyer]

Originally Posted by slughead

Apple downgraded the video cards in the new iMacs Vs the old ones.

Maybe valve asked for at least SOME macs out there to be able to RUN some of their games, before they release them.

The Macbook can't even run Counterstrike Source.

Nice for you that you run a game on your laptop.

Personally, a 30 in Cinema Display running the latest 8800GTS card with optimized drivers is what people most associate with Extreme Gaming.

They want the gear and drivers and all the heavy lifting done for them. It's that simple.

They want to develop the Levels and port their specific gaming engine to play well but rely heavily on code from Apple.

It sure shortens the time-to-market, but what is in it for Apple?

HALO 3 written for OS X would be a different story.

That won't happen.

Ex-Bungie Guys wanted all the heavy lifting done by Apple with Sprockets and everything else.

Microsoft buys Bungie, opens ups tons of resources and enters new markets, bleeds billions to try and crush SONY and has a following.

However, they are bleeding money profusely.

If SONY drops the price of PS 3 by $200 and has an equivalent Live experience you'll see Microsoft lose twice what they've already lost.

Read the 10-Q statements some time.

Microsoft has never made a dollar with their XBox systems.

[Stridder44]

Originally Posted by Soulstorm

Oh, and... I think that now we can't complain about games with poor performance on the Mac OS X. I think that the latest games are all with good performance. So, I can't believe we are still hearing these crap from Valve. These are all lame excuses for not being able to port a game to OpenGL.

I sure hope you're right about that because from what I'm hearing "good performance" is having all settings on medium-low in new mac games (I'm hearing this from people that have brand new iMacs).


And ATI, get your @#%! together and start making some REAL drivers that don't gargle donkey huevos.

[gregorsamsa]

Originally Posted by makku

In this article, http://games.kikizo.com/features/gab...v_sep07_p1.asp, Gabe Newell talks about why it is not happening.

While I don't game on my Macs, I think Apple should definately listen to these developers. The programming techniques and accumulated knowleged from this will be good not only for games but running other process intensive applications as well.

Interesting link. I'm sure that a lot of other game developers feel the same way about Apple's lack of serious commitment towards expanding mainstream gaming on Macs, hence the lack of ports.

FWIW, unless things change in the near future with some positive announcements from Apple re gaming, my laptop Mac will soon be joined by a new desktop PC specifically for gaming. A Mac for serious stuff & a PC for gaming, increasingly looks like (for me at least) the only way to go!

[Dont Hurt Me]

Apple's history with gaming sucks turds, Apples history with videocards sucks and Apples history of playing nice with other companys sucks. Look at Bungie And Apple....they ignored them and Microstink well, the rest is Halo history. Apple has to pull its head out of its butt on gaming. Missing out on the HL2 sequels is Apple being stupid. Forest Gump said...stupid is as stupid does and Apples history with gaming is just stupid.

[NoNameBrand]

Originally Posted by Dont Hurt Me

Apple's history with gaming sucks turds, Apples history with videocards sucks and Apples history of playing nice with other companys sucks. Look at Bungie And Apple....they ignored them and Microstink well, the rest is Halo history. Apple has to pull its head out of its butt on gaming.stupid.

Bungie and Apple? What are you smoking? Microsoft buying Bungie had nothing to do with Apple doing something or failing to do something. Bungie ate its own shirt when they shipped a Windows-destroying bug with Myth2's uninstaller: they recalled the game and lost a ton of money. Selling themselves to Microsoft made up for that and let them not have to worry about it.

I'm not trying to defend Apple here, they surely could do a lot more to support gaming, but you've got the story wrong with regards to Apple & Bungie.

[szark]

Originally Posted by Soulstorm

I'm pretty sure that they asked Apple to alter their OpenGL implementation so that it conforms more with the DirectX standards. And that's not going to happen since OpenGL has its own standards.

Or asked them to implement a full DirectX implementation so they didn't have to recode.

I'm sure they also want better video hardware in the machines, or allow every machine to have upgradeable video hardware.

[KurtangleTN]

Originally Posted by szark

Or asked them to implement a full DirectX implementation so they didn't have to recode.

I'm sure they also want better video hardware in the machines, or allow every machine to have upgradeable video hardware.

Well that would require a lot, hell a total philosophy change, which knowing Apple won't happen.

They need to get out of their box that all consumer level computers should be glorified laptops just for the connivence of being all in one.

They probably need to stop the entire "You're either a pro or a consumer, nothing in-between" attitude they have, and stop crippling the Macbooks with an integrated card.

[powderblue17]

Originally Posted by Dont Hurt Me

Apple's history with gaming sucks turds, Apples history with videocards sucks and Apples history of playing nice with other companys sucks. Look at Bungie And Apple....they ignored them and Microstink well, the rest is Halo history. Apple has to pull its head out of its butt on gaming. Missing out on the HL2 sequels is Apple being stupid. Forest Gump said...stupid is as stupid does and Apples history with gaming is just stupid.

How exactly did Apple ignore Bungie? In case you don't remember Halo was introduced to the world at MacWorld New York in 1999 by Steve Jobs himself. That doesn't really sound like ignoring to me. Microsoft must of been watching Steve's keynote address also.

[rt_brained]

Originally Posted by Dont Hurt Me

Apple's history with gaming sucks turds, Apples history with videocards sucks and Apples history of playing nice with other companys sucks. Look at Bungie And Apple....they ignored them and Microstink well, the rest is Halo history. Apple has to pull its head out of its butt on gaming. Missing out on the HL2 sequels is Apple being stupid. Forest Gump said...stupid is as stupid does and Apples history with gaming is just stupid.

Clearly, someone who knows a lot about stupid.

[Rocketman]

Originally Posted by Dont Hurt Me

Apple's history with gaming sucks turds,

They made an entire game platform which failed due to non-adoption.

Effectively a SDK.

Rocketman

[MagicWok]

Hopefully now that someone with some respect in the industry is saying what a lot of us have been harping on about since the iMac was released, some effort will be made on Apple's part to stop talking things up and not delivering. Wake up Apple, promises only get you so far.

Newell is 100% right on what he says, you only have to look at the entire Mac hardware line up as evidence that the Mac platform is in a poor shape when it comes to gaming on a level that can stand up to, or attempt to surpass, gaming on the PC. I feel compassion for Newell, and I believe that Valve truly wanted to bring gaming to Macs in a much more concerted effort.

Posts on here telling members if they want to play games buy a console or PC is just plain ignorance. I don't want a poxy console to play games with another monitor alongside my Mac. My beautiful Mac should be capable of doing it all, and I have every right as a consumer to demand that it does so. Saying that "Macs aren't built for gaming, get over it" is simply a poor poor excuse, covering up for a lack of effort and vision by Apple with blind loyalty. It's not as if money can't be made through gaming. Apple could make a lot of damn money from gaming, it being such a massive industry now.

I love a lot of Apple's stuff. But I will not argue their corner or support Apple in decisions that contrary to the blindingly obvious. Obviously my one little voice won't do much in the big world of Apple HQ. But perhaps more should speak out now after Newell, someone Jobs has a face to put to the words, that he can't ignore. And maybe someone will finally wake up at Apple, see some common sense and just make the decision.

It's a shame, because I would love to have a Mac that's a great gaming machine, as well as doing all the other stuff right.

[WannaGoMac]

Originally Posted by MagicWok

Hopefully now that someone with some respect in the industry is saying what a lot of us have been harping on about since the iMac was released, some effort will be made on Apple's part to stop talking things up and not delivering. Wake up Apple, promises only get you so far.

Newell is 100% right on what he says, you only have to look at the entire Mac hardware line up as evidence that the Mac platform is in a poor shape when it comes to gaming on a level that can stand up to, or attempt to surpass, gaming on the PC. I feel compassion for Newell, and I believe that Valve truly wanted to bring gaming to Macs in a much more concerted effort.

Posts on here telling members if they want to play games buy a console or PC is just plain ignorance. I don't want a poxy console to play games with another monitor alongside my Mac. My beautiful Mac should be capable of doing it all, and I have every right as a consumer to demand that it does so. Saying that "Macs aren't built for gaming, get over it" is simply a poor poor excuse, covering up for a lack of effort and vision by Apple with blind loyalty. It's not as if money can't be made through gaming. Apple could make a lot of damn money from gaming, it being such a massive industry now.

I love a lot of Apple's stuff. But I will not argue their corner or support Apple in decisions that contrary to the blindingly obvious. Obviously my one little voice won't do much in the big world of Apple HQ. But perhaps more should speak out now after Newell, someone Jobs has a face to put to the words, that he can't ignore. And maybe someone will finally wake up at Apple, see some common sense and just make the decision.

It's a shame, because I would love to have a Mac that's a great gaming machine, as well as doing all the other stuff right.

You said it! Exactly!!

[acircularmotive]

Originally Posted by MagicWok

Posts on here telling members if they want to play games buy a console or PC is just plain ignorance. I don't want a poxy console to play games with another monitor alongside my Mac. My beautiful Mac should be capable of doing it all, and I have every right as a consumer to demand that it does so. Saying that "Macs aren't built for gaming, get over it" is simply a poor poor excuse, covering up for a lack of effort and vision by Apple with blind loyalty. It's not as if money can't be made through gaming. Apple could make a lot of damn money from gaming, it being such a massive industry now.

It's a shame, because I would love to have a Mac that's a great gaming machine, as well as doing all the other stuff right.

Amen to that.