Israel leading America into another War

[SMM]

From The Liars Den:

Israel, US to set up joint committees on Iran: report

Published: Friday November 9, 2007

Israel and the United States have agreed to appoint two working committees in order to hone a joint strategy against Iran's nuclear ambitions, public radio reported on Friday.

Deputy Prime Minister Shaul Mofaz headed discussions on the matter in the United States this week, it said.

One committee will deal with intelligence on Iran's nuclear drive and the other with international sanctions, the chief weapon in an effort to convince Tehran to halt uranium enrichment.

The next formal discussions between Israeli and US officials on Iran will be in two months in Israel, the radio station reported.

On Thursday, Mofaz called for Mohamed ElBaradei to be removed as head of UN nuclear watchdog the International Atomic Energy Agency, saying he had turned a blind eye to Iran's nuclear ambitions.

Public radio quoted unnamed Israeli officials as saying the Mofaz delegation to Washington fed precise intelligence to the United States, alluding to satellite photographs.

Israel and the United States are leading the campaign against Iran's nuclear programme, believing it to be a cover to develop an atomic bomb.

Tehran insists its activities are aimed solely at producing electricity for a growing population once fossil fuels run out.

Israel considers Iran its chief enemy after repeated statements by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that the Jewish state should be wiped off the map.

It belongs to the UN nuclear watchdog but is not a signatory to its key Non-Proliferation Treaty, and is widely considered to have the Middle East's sole -- if undeclared -- nuclear arsenal.

I am definitely not willing to support any strategy which further embroils America in war in the mid-East. I was never for the current one. But, the very notion of shedding more American blood, to support Israel's foreign policies/strategy makes me want to wretch. I have no issues with the jewish people. If they were under unprovoked attack, I would heed their call for aid. But, I will not support their manipulation of our government and dragging us into their wars. We have no voice in forming their policies. We do not get to vote for their leaders, or their plans. Why should we clean-up their messes?

The Israeli lobby must be stopped. Supporters like Perle, Kristol, Sapphire and the rest, will soon be beating the drums of war again. How powerful is the Israeli lobby? Here is a link to a book by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, titled The Israel Lobby.

[Big-TDI-Guy]

I honestly believe that many Israelis do not want war. Probably like the vast population of the US isn't keen on the idea, either. Who would be? Obviously that hasn't stopped our administration from achieving their blunders. And unfortunately, it may not stop theirs.

But in their defense - they DO live in a hostile area. I would perceive verbal threats a lot more if they were coming from my neighbor.

I even had some Israelis say to me "if they could break Israel off and merge into the US, they'd do it in a heartbeat". Having heard that, I think they have a genuine desire to just have somewhere safe to live. Hostile neighbors surround them.

But that takes me back to the first 3 sentences...

[Rodimus Prime]

I do not want to see Iran with nuclear weapons either. I do not trust them. I believe they would use them to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Not only killing a lot of innocent lives the environmental damage effects the rest of the world. Honestly I would rather see war than see Iran with nuclear weapons.
Also I believe they would use them against the US. Get them here as suit case bombs and let them go off in the middle of a major city causing a lot of damage. I believe the president of Iran has spoken out against the US and it is a safe bet he would want to use them against the US.

[skunk]

Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime

I believe the president of Iran has spoken out against the US.

If that is your sole criterion, there's a hell of a long list of places you have to deal with.

[Big-TDI-Guy]

Something I didn't consider was landmass. Pretending that guerrillas in Mexico started a war with the US. The country is very large, and the people, as a whole, likely would have places to escape and hide. We could run to Canada as a safe haven. Or wait out in the woods of Montana, until things smoothed out.

Israel is about the size of New Jersey - and unless they're exceptionally good swimmers - they have no escape. Corner any species, and it's reactions will be stronger and violent - humans are no exception. One big nuke could devastate the country as a whole, so it becomes a digital existence. Wipe New Jersey off the map, and there is still a lot of the US left.

[Rodimus Prime]

Originally Posted by skunk

If that is your sole criterion, there's a hell of a long list of places you have to deal with.

Translate that it no hiden fact that Iran does not like the US. Mix the fact that they clearly hate Israel and the biggest backer of Israel is the US it make the US a prime target. Also I believe it makes most of the west a good size target as well.

[Blue Velvet]

Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime

Also I believe it makes most of the west a good size target as well.

Of what?

[Agathon]

Originally Posted by Blue Velvet

Of what?

Advertising for those funny expensive rugs they keep trying to sell everyone.

[solvs]

Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime

Also I believe they would use them against the US. Get them here as suit case bombs and let them go off in the middle of a major city causing a lot of damage. I believe the president of Iran has spoken out against the US and it is a safe bet he would want to use them against the US.

Suit case bombs are pretty much a myth, and I believe we have spoken out against them as well.

That being said, no I don't trust them, but I trust us even less to deal with them, especially considering the bang up job we've done already making things worse.

[skunk]

Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime

I do not want to see Iran with nuclear weapons either. I do not trust them. I believe they would use them to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Not only killing a lot of innocent lives the environmental damage effects the rest of the world. Honestly I would rather see war than see Iran with nuclear weapons.

I do not want to see the US with nuclear weapons. I do not trust them. I believe they would use them to wipe Iranian assets off the face of the earth. Not only killing a lot of innocent lives the environmental damage affects the rest of the world.

Get them here as suit case bombs and let them go off in the middle of a major city causing a lot of damage. I believe the president of Iran has spoken out against the US and it is a safe bet he would want to use them against the US.

Firstly, not even the major nuclear powers have managed to make a viable suitcase bomb. By the time Iran or anyone else has one, both Ahmedinejad and Bush will be a footnote in history. Secondly, anyone who used a nuclear weapon against the US would undoubtedly suffer immediate and massive retaliation, so there wouldn't be much point, would there?

[Swarmlord]

Originally Posted by SMM

<snip>If they were under unprovoked attack, I would heed their call for aid. But, I will not support their manipulation of our government and dragging us into their wars. We have no voice in forming their policies. We do not get to vote for their leaders, or their plans. Why should we clean-up their messes?

The Israeli lobby must be stopped. Supporters like Perle, Kristol, Sapphire and the rest, will soon be beating the drums of war again. How powerful is the Israeli lobby? Here is a link to a book by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, titled The Israel Lobby.

They can't afford to wait to be attacked. They are our closest allies. We will always come to their aid and we don't have to be lobbied to do so. It's that simple.

[Queso]

Originally Posted by Swarmlord

They can't afford to wait to be attacked. They are our closest allies. We will always come to their aid and we don't have to be lobbied to do so. It's that simple.

Pretty one way arrangement though. When exactly have Israel come to the aid of the USA?

[skunk]

Originally Posted by dynamicv

Pretty one way arrangement though. When exactly have Israel come to the aid of the USA?

Well, they do run a field-testing programme for US weapons systems.

[Queso]

Originally Posted by skunk

Well, they do run a field-testing programme for US weapons systems.

Ah I see. So Swarmie's post should actually read....

Originally Posted by Swarmlord

They can't afford to wait to be attacked. They are our defence industry's closest ally. We will always come to their aid and we don't have to be lobbied to do so. There's money involved.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally Posted by SMM

The Israeli lobby must be stopped. Supporters like Perle, Kristol, Sapphire and the rest, will soon be beating the drums of war again. How powerful is the Israeli lobby? Here is a link to a book by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, titled The Israel Lobby.

This book has been widely criticized. The authors committed one, huge and obvious analytical flaw, which is to argue that if Israel has a lobby within the US that (1) it is homogeneous in its goals, and (2) it is successful in driving US policy in the Middle East.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/opini...obby-myth.html

[skunk]

Originally Posted by IJ Reilly

The authors committed one, huge and obvious analytical flaw, which is to argue that if Israel has a lobby within the US that (1) it is homogeneous in its goals, and (2) it is successful in driving US policy in the Middle East.

Um, that's two huge and obvious analytical flaws.

[SMM]

Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime

I do not want to see Iran with nuclear weapons either. I do not trust them. I believe they would use them to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Not only killing a lot of innocent lives the environmental damage effects the rest of the world. Honestly I would rather see war than see Iran with nuclear weapons.
Also I believe they would use them against the US. Get them here as suit case bombs and let them go off in the middle of a major city causing a lot of damage. I believe the president of Iran has spoken out against the US and it is a safe bet he would want to use them against the US.

Iran is a very long way from developing a Nuclear weapon, and even further from having a delivery capability and infrastructure. It does not mean they have not tried to develop one. But, there is no reason to get excited about it right this minute, especially when there are probably a few years of opportunities to defuse the situation through diplomatic means.

This is a recent story by Jonathan Landay, Experts: No firm evidence of Iranian nuclear weapons, of the McClatchy Washington news bureau. He is one of the very top investigative reporters for intelligence and national defense. He often collaborates with Warren P. Strobel, who specializes in Foreign Affairs & the State Department. It is a 'dynamic dual'. It was these two reporters who actually got the Iraq story correct (and wining awards for investigative journalism), when the rest of the beltway media completely hosed the story up. Warren recently wrote an article, Experts: Danger of nuclear-armed Iran may be hyped. It too deals with the facts, not the WH scare tactics.

Right now, we are following the same path we did to land us in the mess we are in. How short are some people's memories? Go search the WP, NYT, or wherever you are from, and read the stories, but substitute Iran for Iraq. It's the same old story, the same old song and dance. When the Administration was selling the need to invade, the entire affair had "Vietnam" written all over it. It was so bloody obvious. I was dismayed so few people could see it. But, in reflection, I realized Vietnam ended around 1975. That is a long time to let the memory grow dim. It never has faded from my memory, as it was one of the single most important events of my life. But, there is no excuse for not recalling what lies, and manipulation, landed us in Iraq. Hell, it is still going on.

We cannot afford to have these insane middle-east policies continue. We cannot afford to piss away another dime, when we have a national debt over $9,000,000,000,000.00. We have so many problems in our Country right now, one wonders whether we can right the ship before it sinks. The only hope we have is to begin making good decisions. Attacking Iran does not fall into that category.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally Posted by skunk

Um, that's two huge and obvious analytical flaws.

I count it as 1.4 flaws, which I rounded down.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally Posted by SMM

This is a recent story by Jonathan Landay, Experts: No firm evidence of Iranian nuclear weapons, of the McClatchy Washington news bureau.

Which was posted here as a thread, and we discussed it already (well, a few of us did, anyway). By all means, read the article. I don't think the case it makes is for a lack of concern. And once again, the real options are not between chicken little and a shoulder shrug.

[Swarmlord]

Originally Posted by dynamicv

Pretty one way arrangement though. When exactly have Israel come to the aid of the USA?

You don't think they provide us intelligence? They purchase military hardware and deploy it as if they were an extension of ourselves in the Middle East. They took out Iraq's and Syria's reactors and will do the same in Iran shortly.

What else do you want?

[Queso]

Originally Posted by Swarmlord

They purchase military hardware and deploy it as if they were an extension of ourselves in the Middle East.

You do realise they do that with the money you give them, don't you? You purchase it, not them.

I would also doubt the authenticity of their intelligence if it was used the last time the USA involved itself in Middle East affairs.

[Swarmlord]

Originally Posted by dynamicv

You do realise they do that with the money you give them, don't you? You purchase it, not them.

I would also doubt the authenticity of their intelligence if it was used the last time the USA involved itself in Middle East affairs.

Yeah, but calls to eliminate foreign aid fall on deaf ears. Might as well recoup it with military sales.

[Queso]

Originally Posted by Swarmlord

Yeah, but calls to eliminate foreign aid fall on deaf ears. Might as well recoup it with military sales.

OK, just in case you actually did miss the point I was making rather than deliberately ignoring it, your tax money is paying defence contractors to give weapons to Israel. However they try and dress it up as an "aid package" that's the truth of it.

And then you wonder why Palestinian sympathisers start flying airplanes into your financial districts.

[Peterkro]

Originally Posted by Swarmlord

You don't think they provide us intelligence? They purchase military hardware and deploy it as if they were an extension of ourselves in the Middle East. They took out Iraq's and Syria's reactors and will do the same in Iran shortly.

What else do you want?

Given the US's recent military cock-ups the value of the intelligence would seem to be dubious at the very least,WMDs anyone?

[SMM]

Originally Posted by IJ Reilly

This book has been widely criticized. The authors committed one, huge and obvious analytical flaw, which is to argue that if Israel has a lobby within the US that (1) it is homogeneous in its goals, and (2) it is successful in driving US policy in the Middle East.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/opini...obby-myth.html

Of course it is widely criticized. What would you expect. This Country is absolutely pro-Israel. There is an especially powerful Jewish presence is all facets of the media. I would expect most Jewish people to be pro-Israel.

I want to get one thing straight. I am not anti-Israel, nor anti-Jewish. My in-laws are Jewish and we share a great deal of love. My issue with Israel is solely focused on their foreign policy. Even that was not an issue as long as we were providing military aid and they were dealing with their own issues. But, it has moved beyond that now. We have ~4000 dead Americans fighting a war to create a pro-Israeli state in the region. It is a well documented fact that Israel lobbied the National Security Council to invade Iran rather than Iraq. They felt there was more benefit for them using that strategy. Cheney opposed the plan for a number of reasons. So, we are still Iraq, and once again Israel is coming here to talk us into another bombing campaign, but quite possibly a land invasion. There is absolutely no reason to involve ourselves into another middle-East war right now.