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Old Jan 16, 2008, 10:41 PM   #26
pmpknetr21
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I'm so glad that you said what you said, KindredMac.

I get so P*SSED at this time of year because everybody comes up with a reason to b**ch and complain. GET OVER IT! It's the first generation. They'll get better. Oh, the MBA's not for you? WHO CARES!? Keep it to yourself.

As for 3G: it's over rated and underdeveloped. You can't get it anywhere. Even in my hometown of NYC it's scarce.

Why can't you guys just accept it for what it is? A niche product for CERTAIN road warriors or people who want some somthin' super light. It's like people complaining about the Mac mini... DUDE! It wasn't meant for you. It was meant for my 65 year old mother who wants a machine that won't crash and doesn't want to worry about spyware.

Give Apple Credit where credit is due: it's a PHENOMENAL first attempt since the 12" Powerbook and iBook at the ultra-portable market. It'll get better with time.

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Old Jan 16, 2008, 11:04 PM   #27
Mr Fusion
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Originally Posted by KindredMAC View Post
3G this and 3G that....

I am SO sick of everyone spewing the new catch phrase of "3G" to use as a weapon against Apple.
There's an easy solution to that. "Apple, meet 3G. 3G, meet Apple."

Quote:
#1- 3G networks are not wide spread in the US yet.
Thank you for the map. It appears to be in enough cities for me [including mine] so what's the problem? Are we waiting until every prairie dog in Wyoming has coverage too?

Quote:
#2- WiFi hotspots have become so prevalent across this country that they are almost easier to find than a good cell reception. Try driving down the street in any area with your iPhones on and start scanning for WiFi locations. You will find that you will be inundated with LINKSYS router after LINKSYS router of businesses that offer free hotspots.
You are right, depending on what public place I'm at I can usually find between 3 and 10 wireless networks around. Problem is almost every last one of them either needs a password that I don't have, connects but can't get an IP address, or costs [$]. If I'm already paying for a data plan why would I pay for WiFi?
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Old Jan 17, 2008, 01:28 AM   #28
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It's kind of funny. The people who are saying "I'm sick and tired of people using 3G as a complaint against Apple" are the same people who in other threads are saying "Apple got rid of the ethernet and all of the other ports because they're focusing on the future, making it wireless!" Well guess what. If you want to make the thing wireless, then it needs 3G or EV-DO.

If Apple is really trying to be advanced in their **** (like getting rid of the floppy, being one of the first to have 802.11b, etc) then they should have had 3G for a couple of years now. Other companies have had it. The other funny thing is that when Apple finally puts it in their laptops, they'll hail it as innovation! ZOMG WE'RE THE FIRST! Just like they were the first to make a notebook that thin, right? Nope. Sony made one a few years ago (It was only released in Japan).

And to the people who say 3G/EV-DO not widespread enough yet: it's getting there. It's in every major city. My phone has EV-DO (3 year old moto that does more than iPhone) and I have EV-DO service everywhere. There's only one place that I can think of where I didn't have it.. and it was way out near UMass Amherst.
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Old Jan 17, 2008, 08:41 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by KindredMAC View Post
#1- 3G networks are not wide spread in the US yet. Do you know how long ago AT&T/Cingular said we would have 3G coverage in New York State. Try almost 2 years ago. How many people that use "3G" as a tidbit actually live in an area where 3G is available??
Probably most people who live outside the US in a western European or Asian market (which would be Apple's biggest markets after the US). Just because the US has bad coverage (in part due to the government, T-Mobile has been ready to roll out their network, but the government still hasn't vacated the airwaves) doesn't mean the rest of us living outside of the US don't have good coverage either. Since you brought in the coverage map, I'm including the GSM/3G coverage maps. Should be obvious which is GSM vs 3G coverage on them. But note that the UK, Spain, Ireland, France, Portugal, Denmark, Italy, Sweden and Germany all have coverage to what amounts to well over 50% of their geography and significantly more (probably close to 80%) of their population due to population distribution in Europe. So I'd say a lot of us live in areas with 3G.

The Asia map is as of December 2006, and the Europe is as of January 2007. Undoubtedly the coverage area is even higher now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KindredMAC View Post
#2- WiFi hotspots have become so prevalent across this country that they are almost easier to find than a good cell reception. Try driving down the street in any area with your iPhones on and start scanning for WiFi locations. You will find that you will be inundated with LINKSYS router after LINKSYS router of businesses that offer free hotspots.
Here in Spain, most internet providers give people their routers, ad they come prelocked. On the modem is a sticker giving you the name of the network (normally WLAN_XX where XX are the last two digits of the MAC address) and the password. It's more or less hard coded into the router (though I've not looked into very hard, I couldn't figure out at a glance how to change the password or security option), so while you can be in downtown Madrid and see a hundred networks, every single one of them is locked.

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Originally Posted by KindredMAC View Post
Last night on The Loop, the one guest mentioned how he was disappointed by the lack of 3G in the Air. I thought I was going to put my foot through the television. What kind of complaint is this?

It's like me saying, "Geez, this laptop is crap because it doesn't come with Adobe Creative Suite pre-installed because I'm a graphic designer and Apple should know that I, of all people, need that to come on my laptop."
I agree with this though. Because you can get your internet via bluetooth with nearly any 3G phone, there's no reason to put it in your computer as well. Not to mention the annoyance people would have at Apple if it wasn't a octuple-band or however many different frequencies the world is going to end up using for 3G-band antennae. I know I probably won't be able to use my phone for 3G when I go back to the states because of the available of frequencies when they were bought up. I'd hate to have to buy a whole new MBA or pay Apple for a costly upgrade when I could just get a new phone which I'd probably be doing anyways. Ditto for when things start switching to 3.5G and 4G down the road.
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Old Jan 17, 2008, 09:26 PM   #30
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Agree that 3g or EVDO should not be built in by default, as it is not the solution everywhere.

However, using an USB dongle is not elegant, and damned annoying considering there is a hatch to access the USB port.
there should have been either:
  • provision for an internal card
  • an extrnal card slot
  • enabling the iphone to provide edge access via bluetooth (and future 3G iphone similar)
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Old Jan 17, 2008, 10:47 PM   #31
pmpknetr21
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Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
It's kind of funny. The people who are saying "I'm sick and tired of people using 3G as a complaint against Apple" are the same people who in other threads are saying "Apple got rid of the ethernet and all of the other ports because they're focusing on the future, making it wireless!" Well guess what. If you want to make the thing wireless, then it needs 3G or EV-DO.

If Apple is really trying to be advanced in their **** (like getting rid of the floppy, being one of the first to have 802.11b, etc) then they should have had 3G for a couple of years now. Other companies have had it. The other funny thing is that when Apple finally puts it in their laptops, they'll hail it as innovation! ZOMG WE'RE THE FIRST! Just like they were the first to make a notebook that thin, right? Nope. Sony made one a few years ago (It was only released in Japan).

And to the people who say 3G/EV-DO not widespread enough yet: it's getting there. It's in every major city. My phone has EV-DO (3 year old moto that does more than iPhone) and I have EV-DO service everywhere. There's only one place that I can think of where I didn't have it.. and it was way out near UMass Amherst.
[BEGIN PRAYER]
God... I try so hard not to get hyped-up about these things because I know how my fellow Mac enthusiasts and I can get, but I can't help this one. You know I hardly ever post anything; I hold my tongue. So please don't take this personal but...[END PRAYER]

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You don't include a feature in a product because it's the latest and greatest thing. You include it because the market that you want to appeal to will find it useful. The people who will go after the MBA will NOT be those that give a C**P about 3G. Put 3G in because "it's getting there"? Are you crazy? If you use that logic, then Ford should make a car that runs on sugar-cane/ethanol like what Brazil uses. Who cares that ethanol fuel stations are NOT available anywhere in the US. It's the coolest thing, so let's build it into the car and sell it to the .01% of the population that thinks it's cool to have it.

Come on man, Think Different.
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Old Jan 17, 2008, 11:03 PM   #32
FX120
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Originally Posted by KindredMAC View Post
3G this and 3G that....

I am SO sick of everyone spewing the new catch phrase of "3G" to use as a weapon against Apple.

#1- 3G networks are not wide spread in the US yet. Do you know how long ago AT&T/Cingular said we would have 3G coverage in New York State. Try almost 2 years ago. How many people that use "3G" as a tidbit actually live in an area where 3G is available???

#2- WiFi hotspots have become so prevalent across this country that they are almost easier to find than a good cell reception. Try driving down the street in any area with your iPhones on and start scanning for WiFi locations. You will find that you will be inundated with LINKSYS router after LINKSYS router of businesses that offer free hotspots.

Last night on The Loop, the one guest mentioned how he was disappointed by the lack of 3G in the Air. I thought I was going to put my foot through the television. What kind of complaint is this?

It's like me saying, "Geez, this laptop is crap because it doesn't come with Adobe Creative Suite pre-installed because I'm a graphic designer and Apple should know that I, of all people, need that to come on my laptop."

Here's the thing.... I would NEVER THINK of running CS3 on the Air. There are limitations to all things "special". This is a "Special" laptop that is not intended to appeal to the masses. Just as 3G does not appeal to the masses when the known 3G networks in America only cover a small percentage of the entire country...
That's because AT&T has a horrible network.

Sprint has EV-DO rolled out in something like 80% of it's coverage area, and Verizon is right behind them.

I haven't been anywhere, and not been able to get a EVDO connection through my Mogul, including a small town about 40 minutes off the interstate with a population of only about 3000.

I live in a town of about 1 million, and even with city wide "free" wifi, finding a good reliable connection is not as easy as it sounds unless you're sitting at a starbucks. I use the internet for buisness, and sometimes when I really need to send an email or download a document on the go, I don't have 10 minutes to go wondering around town looking for free wifi.

Other companies like Dell, Toshiba, Lenovo, Sony ect offer the option of built in 3G in a few of their notebooks, why can't Apple do it as a BTO option?
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Old Jan 17, 2008, 11:22 PM   #33
pmpknetr21
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Originally Posted by FX120 View Post
Other companies like Dell, Toshiba, Lenovo, Sony ect offer the option of built in 3G in a few of their notebooks, why can't Apple do it as a BTO option?
Could be a couple of factors: Maybe because the MBA is too thin? Or because it's a niche product and the cost of offering it to the miniscule number of people that may want it is more than what it's worth?

Not too mention, the MBA is not for that market. For those who need it, Apple offers the MBP with the ExpressCard slot. Or, you can get the USB dongle from Sprint, etc. Ugly? Yes. But it does the job without having to further re-engineer the portable. Apple's portable's are so popular because they're simple and elegant in their minimalist design. To offer a BTO 3G or EV-DO card goes against that.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old Jan 18, 2008, 02:15 AM   #34
FX120
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Originally Posted by pmpknetr21 View Post
Could be a couple of factors: Maybe because the MBA is too thin? Or because it's a niche product and the cost of offering it to the miniscule number of people that may want it is more than what it's worth?

Not too mention, the MBA is not for that market. For those who need it, Apple offers the MBP with the ExpressCard slot. Or, you can get the USB dongle from Sprint, etc. Ugly? Yes. But it does the job without having to further re-engineer the portable. Apple's portable's are so popular because they're simple and elegant in their minimalist design. To offer a BTO 3G or EV-DO card goes against that.

Just my 2 cents.
I think you're completely backwards.

What is more simple and minimalist? Using the only USB port on the thing for (yet another) external dongle? Or just letting the people who are interested go through the BTO process on Apple's website, which isn't exactly new, and already part of the MBA process if you want the SSD.

I think the "target" market for the MBA is obviously people who are on the go a lot, and those are the exact people who are most likely to use a cellular internet option. There is obviously a market for this, based on the number of people who request it, and the fact that it is available in nearly every other ultra portable laptop these days.

Personally I would of rather seen an extra 1/8th of an inch of thickness in the front, it have one more USB port, and a BTO cellular option. Apple might be getting my sale in that case, even it was more expensive, but they're not.

Instead, I might getting a Dell XPS M1330, in part due to the fact that there is a cellular broadband option available. It would save me the hassle of having to tether my cell all the time.

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Old Jan 18, 2008, 04:45 AM   #35
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Yeah, not in the US. But in the rest of the developed world 3G coverage is excellent. You wonder why iPhone sales are so bad in Europe? Because we aren't going to throw out our much faster two year old 3G handsets and go back to something far slower. It'll be the same in Japan when they launch there. No 3G, no sale.
Ditto. It's not our fault the USA is behind. Hurry up...

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Originally Posted by mainstreetmark View Post
Not even the hackers seem concerned about making the iPhone do this. Is it even possible with a software hack?
Yeh, I used to do it before I got bored and sold my iPhone.

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Old Jan 18, 2008, 05:21 AM   #36
Vmaatta
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Lightbulb Why.. come on...

The MBA has Bluetooth.. your phone has bluetooth. So what seems to be the problem here

You connect using your phone as a modem for the MBA. No ugly dongle, no wires. You use whatever network and company you happen to be in.

Why should Apple put a 3G or EV-DO or GSM or whatever in the MBA . It would only bring up price and it would only be a solution to a fraction of the customers. There's so many different phone networks and standards and they change fast that there's no point putting one of those chips in the MBA. Let your phone do the work of connecting.
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Old Jan 18, 2008, 11:16 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by pmpknetr21 View Post
...If you use that logic, then Ford should make a car that runs on sugar-cane/ethanol like what Brazil uses. Who cares that ethanol fuel stations are NOT available anywhere in the US. It's the coolest thing, so let's build it into the car and sell it to the .01% of the population that thinks it's cool to have it.

Come on man, Think Different.
Actually, that IS what US car companies are doing...it costs them a couple hundred bucks at most to make a car ready for ethanol use (just some fuel system modifications). There are about 7 million cars on US roads right now that can take ethanol. GM calls them "Flex-Fuel". While ethanol stations are mostly located in the Midwest right now, they are expanding outward as demand grows.

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Old Jan 18, 2008, 11:42 AM   #38
John Jacob
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I don't understand why anyone would want to do that...

I just don't understand why anyone in their right mind would want 3G built into their notebook computer. Just tether your cellphone to the computer via bluetooth, instead.

Advantages:
1. You don't need to pay for TWO cellular connections. I'm assuming everyone has a cellphone for voice (hey, it is the 21st century after all).
2. You are not tied to a particular operator or network. You can choose the network (CDMA, EDGE, UMTS) and operator that is best suited to your location.

Of course, this won't work if you have an iPhone. And if you have an ultrafast 3G connection (a fast HSDPA network for example), bluetooth may actually be slower than your 3G speed. But I don't think that would happen unless you live in a remote area and within sight of a cellphone tower.
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Old Jan 18, 2008, 04:53 PM   #39
FX120
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Tethering over bluetooth is a major PITA with any phone/ computer combination I have used. The only reliable and consistant method I have found is a USB cable.

Options are always good, Dell offers modems from the 3 major mobile data providers, so that isn't an issue.

Cost wise it doesn't make a difference. Phone as modem services are currently an extra $60 a month for unlimited data, and to add a mobile data plan for my notebook would be $60 a month. Either way I end up paying that $60 a month.
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Old Jan 18, 2008, 05:17 PM   #40
HyperZboy
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Originally Posted by xenotaku View Post
Absolutely, I dont own one, but the Kindle's feature of always connected is amazing. Every laptop should have this feature.
RE: Kindle... You just said a mouthful..... "I don't own one" LOL
Wouldn't it be nice if there were more people who own one to defend it?

RE: MacBook Air... And I wish this 3G whining would stop from you dorks.

How many times does Steve Jobs have to say it to get it into peoples' thick skulls?... The size and power requirements for 3G did or does not exist for these devices as of yet! It will soon. DUH!

Between the people complaining about the size of their clumsy 3G dongle bricks and the people whining about one not being inside the MacBook Air, I think I want to pull all my hair out.

My suggestion... Climb into your time machine and all your wishes will be granted!

:-)
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Old Jan 18, 2008, 05:48 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by John Jacob View Post
I just don't understand why anyone in their right mind would want 3G built into their notebook computer. Just tether your cellphone to the computer via bluetooth, instead.

Advantages:
1. You don't need to pay for TWO cellular connections. I'm assuming everyone has a cellphone for voice (hey, it is the 21st century after all).
2. You are not tied to a particular operator or network. You can choose the network (CDMA, EDGE, UMTS) and operator that is best suited to your location.
It's true of course that you can use your 3G phone with bluetooth. I'm using my macbook with a bluetooth connection to my SE k800i right now, works like a charm.
But the problem is, at least here in Belgium, that data connection rates for mobile phones are WAY more expensive than for laptop 3G solutions. I don't know why, since it's essentially the same thing, but the data rates for sim cards to put in 3g modems or pccards (and which don't work on phones) are way cheaper here...
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Old Jan 18, 2008, 09:20 PM   #42
ahaxton
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You know what would be cool is if they came out with these two things:


A 3G usb dongle for the MacBook Air
Share your 3G MacBook Air connection with your version 1 iPhone

Version 2 iPhone built in 3G with sharing capabilities to your MacBook Air



From the way it seems the MacBook Air really is revolutionary and the launch of the product itself is just the beginning. I think the whole "wireless world" they are going to go crazy on this year. The way the MacBook air was presented during the keynote totally shows how Apple envisions the future. I bet as the iPhone is improved, so will the MacBook air and they will become partners I think this year as the iPhone announcements come, so will all the cool stuff for the MacBook air.

I'm surprised more people aren't realizing the keynote unveiling the macbook air was very different from a keynote unveiling a new laptop. Apple's vision is unveiling.

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Old Jan 19, 2008, 03:56 AM   #43
markie
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"If they ddid have 3g, they wouldn't be able to release it in some countries at first. In australia, Telsta (one of the major telcos) is pushing to replace 3g with NextG (3.5G or HSDPA)"

They aren't replacing, they're complementing. Australia has both the US and Euro phone bands. Telstra started with 3G UMTS in the Euro 3G (2100MHz) band. It's a pretty high frequency so covering rural areas with this is hard.

They added US cellular (850 MHz) UMTS. To distinguish it they're calling it NextG - to indicate you need a phone with the 850MHz band to use this coverage.

This is the *same band* AT&T is deploying 3G on here stateside...

HSDPA is a high speed, totally backwards compatible, upgrade to UMTS.

What Apple needed to include was a modem with 850/900/1800/1900 GSM and 850/1700/1900/2100 UMTS.

That'd have been the answer to all our connectivity needs. But it would be limited to EDGE in rural areas like where I live (or if it was locked to AT&T I'd have nothing - the only GSM carrier here is Chinook).

The other option is 3G CDMA (EVDO). There is MUCH more 3G CDMA coverage since it's a much easier, cheaper upgrade. Alltel and Verizon both have 3G CDMA here. But that truly does limit them to a few countries (and a shrinking list... Telstra's NextG 850MHz UMTS is actually replacing 850MHz 3G CDMA...)
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Old Jan 19, 2008, 05:17 AM   #44
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I own the latest 17" so I super portable would be a welcome addition.

But the lack of wimax and/or replaceable battery--I travel long distances--is leaving me on the fence with the Air.

If it had wimax, I would have purchased for sure.

With a replaceable battery and no wimax, it would have been 80 percent sure I would have purchased.

But no replaceable battery is a problem. I think I may wait this one out. Sucks because I would have loved to have purchased this.
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Old Jan 19, 2008, 06:05 AM   #45
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I agree

This is a first release and first releases are never exactly what you want.

Apple tv is a good example. At least apple does rethink and revise products as things become easier to adopt.

If you want a product with every imaginable feature crammed into it then buy windows or windows supported products and then tell me how usable the whole thing feels. Apple's development is not just about cramming features, it's about getting them to work in the best possible way.

This my whinging friends takes time.
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Old Jan 19, 2008, 09:40 AM   #46
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When Steve Jobs says we are a software company, he really means it. It seems that apple is less innovative on the hardware side and they are just putting together computers with pre-made / pre-tested off the shelve parts. Once you dress standard PC hardware with OS X you get a little pretty thing very few can resist. I wished apple would spend some of it's proclaimed cash reserve to create a truly functional mobile device with constant connectivity and full computing functionality.
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Old Jan 19, 2008, 04:01 PM   #47
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Perfect 3G Companion to Macbook Air

Guys I don't know if anyone has seen but if you live in the UK you can go down to your local Vodafone Store or online at www.vodafone.co.uk and get their new USB MODEM STICK that is so small it will fit MacBook Air fine

Getting your MacBook Air mobile broadband over Vodafone's HSDPA network with speeds of up to 7.2MB. (Average speed around 1.8 -3.5 MB)

The stick is small and white so it will compliment MacBook Air.

I've also noticed that you get 3 months free at the minute too

Hope this info helps

Gaz
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Old Jan 19, 2008, 05:55 PM   #48
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3G Tethering

I used a Nokia N70 for Bluetooth tethering and 3G access on a recent trip to Italy. It was a pain to set up but after a day of fiddling I was able to get it working.

Speed was OK for eMail and web surfing but insufficient for such tasks as accessing my office database in Texas and downloading large files. Cost was also an issue because it wasn't an access unlimited data plan.

When you tether to a cell phone you have to worry about battery life in both the computer and the cell phone. I found that both were depleted rather quickly. The only really satisfactory way to operate was when the computer was on it's charger and the Nokia N70 was on it's charger as well. That's when it worked OK (except for the speed) and I could keep operating for several hours.

Here in the USA I have an iPhone with the Edge network and no tethering. It's costing $59 per month for AT&T's minimum monthly plan. I roll over most of the voice minutes every month. That's because talking on the phone is not my thing. I use the iPhone primarily for stock quotes, web access, an occasional phone call, and maps. I love the iPhone and I truly despise the AT&T pricing model.

I really would like to have wide area Internet access on my 17" MacBook Pro but I don't want to pay yet another $60 per month data plan charge for that. Most of the time I'm within WiFi range so I don't need wide area access every day. But when I do need it I really need it (maybe one or two days a month). Current pricing doesn't fit my needs.

The stuff that's out there now, including MacBook Air, iPhone, and the Bluetooth tethering cell phones like Nokia aren't quite what I want. They're in the neighborhood but they're not really on target.

I'd very definitely like to have wide area connectivity. I'd like it to be faster than 3G and less battery draining the current 3G. I don't want to carry both a cell phone and a computer. I'd like the two of them merged into one with the computer being more important than the cell phone. My ideal would be a computer the size of the MacBook Air but with a higher screen resolution (like the iPhone in terms of pixels per inch). I want 8 to 10 hour battery life and then I don't care whether the battery is user changeable. My ideal computer would have a Bluetooth headset that pulls out of the laptop for making and receiving phone calls. I would not have a separate cell phone. Maybe the wide area connectivity comes from WiMax or G4 or something else.
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Old Jan 20, 2008, 06:28 PM   #49
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I live and work in a blue area so I'm pretty disappointed about no 3G.
It's not a "weapon against Apple" but a practical decision as a consumer. I already have a smart phone and a laptop with no built in 3G capability. Both relatively new. Why would get spend hundreds of dollars on a new phone and a new laptop which still don't have 3G?
When Apple releases an HSDPA iPhone and Air I'll get one. Until then, not gonna happen.
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Old Jan 21, 2008, 11:36 AM   #50
a104375
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Matamoras, PA
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWhaler View Post
I own the latest 17" so I super portable would be a welcome addition.

But the lack of wimax and/or replaceable battery--I travel long distances--is leaving me on the fence with the Air.

If it had wimax, I would have purchased for sure.

With a replaceable battery and no wimax, it would have been 80 percent sure I would have purchased.

But no replaceable battery is a problem. I think I may wait this one out. Sucks because I would have loved to have purchased this.
You did read that the battery is replaceable all you have to do is take out a few screws and buy the battery online.
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