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Old Feb 5, 2008, 08:12 AM   #1
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Linus Torvalds Sydney Herald Interview (was: Torvalds pans Apple...)

Just read this-way above my head-I just use it not write applications. The headline which will be the only thing most people will mis very misleading.

"I don't think they're equally flawed - I think Leopard is a much better system," he said. "(But) OS X in some ways is actually worse than Windows to program for. Their file system is complete and utter crap, which is scary."

"Apple's much-touted new operating system, OS X Leopard, is in some ways worse than Windows Vista, says the founder of the Linux open source project, Linus Torvalds."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/technolog...090393959.html

Last edited by mkrishnan; Feb 8, 2008 at 09:54 AM. Reason: Change title
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 08:19 AM   #2
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I want him to explain in more detail. His explanation is total...
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 08:21 AM   #3
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He's just mad that Apple stuck with HFS+ instead of going with ZFS.
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 08:39 AM   #4
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We need to keep in mind that Linus is a kernel-developer, and his perspective on these things is VERY different from regular users perspective. And if he talks about filesystems, and compares OS X's filesystem to Windows's, we need to remember that NTFS is actually pretty good filesystem.

And he does consider Leopard to be superior when compared to Vista. It's just that "some areas" of Leopard are worse than Vista. And I think that he's probably right. While Leopard is overall better, I don't think it's realistic to think that it's superior in every single thing.
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 09:23 AM   #5
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His point about the file system is well made - and I suspect that Apple agree with him, but are cautious about rushing into implementing a new file system due to the potential knock-on effects.

What Torvalds (and others) miss is that people use Mac and Windows because a: most Linux distros ship with a GUI that is simply a mess
b: Windows and Mac run the software that people need/want to use.

Personally, I couldn't make a living with Linux on my desktop - and I probably couldn't stand even Ubuntu's GUI for long enough to make a living even if the software was available....

Linux remains the obvious choice for a server OS - I'd love to implement it in my workplace (unfortunately not an option due to a Windows-centric CRM application we use). I still remain unconvinced by the desktop experience, however - things have improved, but eye candy seems to be the aim with most distros rather than a serious attempt at a consistent and logical interface (whatever WM you use).
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 09:41 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tersono View Post
What Torvalds (and others) miss is that people use Mac and Windows because a: most Linux distros ship with a GUI that is simply a mess
Well, it ain't THAT bad . While it lacks the spit 'n polish of OS X, I can with good conscience say that it's a lot better than on Windows. And while Vista adds loads of eye-candy that standard-Linux might be missing (although there is tech out there that put Vista to shame), in Vista, that crap just gets in the way.

My wife had no problems with Ubuntu, and she in fact complained when I switched to OS X, because she found OS X to be "confusing" and "difficult". Granted, she learned the GUI, but the point is that it all boils down to what we are used to.

Now, the color-scheme in Ubuntu might be off-putting (yellow & brown), but luckily that can be changed.
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 02:13 PM   #7
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Torvalds pans Apple with 'utter crap' putdown




Category: Mac OS X
Link: Torvalds pans Apple with 'utter crap' putdown
Description:: none

Posted on MacBytes.com
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 02:25 PM   #8
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Torvalds didn't call Mac OS X utter crap. He did praise OS X as "much better" than Vista, but saved his "utter crap" opinion of the file system, which is hard to disagree with, frankly.
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 02:28 PM   #9
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"If I were human, I believe my response would be 'go to hell'.... if I were human."

Linux is such a hodge-podge of a system I'm amazed that he would have the testicuar fortitude to make a claim against the most widely used *NIX in the world. Apple has been able to do something that GNU and Linux have not, created a *NIX for everyone and is cheap.

The OSX file system is like all other *NIX systems starting at '/' and working its way down, just because Apple does something differently than what you want, does not make it "utter crap".

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Old Feb 5, 2008, 02:42 PM   #10
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Apple has been able to do something that GNU and Linux have not, created a *NIX for everyone and is cheap.
TEG
I think you have Mac OS and Linux confused.

Linux is the one that is free and widely available, Mac OS is the one where you have to buy it on a machine that starts at around $600.
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 02:44 PM   #11
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I think you have Mac OS and Linux confused.
He doesn't. Linux isn't "for everyone".
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 02:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
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He doesn't. Linux isn't "for everyone".
Exactly what I meant. Plus OSX is $129, whereas other UNIX systems are several hundred dollars per license, and many commercial Linux systems are nearly as expensive.

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Old Feb 5, 2008, 02:53 PM   #13
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I agree with him on a few points.

1) Filesystem, I agree HFS isn't the best option. I am not going to get into a battle of which FS is better, but HFS isn't in the running.
2) The OS should be transparent to the user. I totally agree.
3) Linux has a problem when it comes to UI. Gnome and KDE are just bloated window managers. We don't need something that crazy, give me something basic and *VERY* easy to use. OS X has one of the best GUIs I have ever used. Yes, I am a very long time Linux user.

Application management and installation also still suck on Linux and I don't see that changing. Sometimes, an open environment can be its downfall. There are actually too many options. I enjoy the methods OS X uses to install Applications. Linux needs a user library in a sense. Just some "standards" on how to cleanly separate items from users. I think Blizzard needs to learn this for WoW.

Linux is by far the best for servers and the worst for a desktop. OS X is best on the desktop imo.
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 03:18 PM   #14
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Jealous jerk. The day Linux is better than OSX is..... here it comes..... NEVER!
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 03:26 PM   #15
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Holy cow. What are people getting so defensive for? He's just criticizing HFS, which is indeed a terrible FS compared to more recent ones. When Apple switches to a new FS, possibly as soon as the next release of OS X, most people are going to say, "It's about time." He isn't calling OS X in general "utter crap". Why act like he just personally ran over your dog and laughed about it?
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 03:45 PM   #16
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Well, if Apple didn't pretty much agree (albeit they'd probably word it differently!) then all the stuff about ZFS doesn't make sense, does it?

I like the ideas behind Linux but every time I look at trying it properly I don't really see anything it really offers me that is worth the hassle. I'm glad it's there as an option though.
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 03:51 PM   #17
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Holy cow. What are people getting so defensive for? He's just criticizing HFS, which is indeed a terrible FS compared to more recent ones. When Apple switches to a new FS, possibly as soon as the next release of OS X, most people are going to say, "It's about time." He isn't calling OS X in general "utter crap". Why act like he just personally ran over your dog and laughed about it?
QFT.

We're talking about the formatting of the drive, NOT how the directories are laid out. I wish people would quit commenting on things that they just don't understand.

As much as I hate HFS+, I don't loathe it as much as ReiserFS4. If Hans Reiser weren't in prison for killing his wife, he deserves to be for the amount of grief that ReiserFS4 caused me (3 servers * 3.5TB each causing insane spikes in processor load). After juggling insane amounts of data from one server to another to be able to repartition them one at a time, I have to say that JFS (originally developed by IBM) was amazingly stable and gave NO performance or data loss issues.

The current generation of Apple's HFS+(Journaled) is tons better than the old HFS and HFS+ from the pre-OS X days. I've never seen a filesystem that would just destroy itself like HFS would.
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 03:52 PM   #18
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The day Linux is better than OSX is..... here it comes.....
EVERYDAY! (if you're running servers)
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 03:55 PM   #19
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Linus is becoming a jerk now that he has gained so much fame in the Open Source community. The great thing about computing in Linux is there are so many different file systems to choose from, and I am just waiting for ZFS to be ported to Linux (they have licensing problems with doing so, but maybe we will see it happen) so I can use it on my Linux box. As for HFS, I am also waiting for Apple to get ZFS to be the default file system (that time is coming).
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 04:13 PM   #20
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Linus is becoming a jerk now that he has gained so much fame in the Open Source community.
Also, because he is a one-trick pony. After getting Linux started, he hasn't done much. How's that Transmeta thing working out? Linux is becoming more and more balkanized and the community is dissolving into tiny niches revolving around particular distros.

Notice that Mac OS X's marketshare is rocketing toward double-digits and Linux is no longer mentioned. It may have fallen behind DOS by now
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 05:25 PM   #21
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I guess I got no credit, LOL.


It is not a matter if he is correct or not, It is how he said it. I think it could have been said a lot differently and would have sounded less out of his behind.
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 05:25 PM   #22
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Exactly what I meant. Plus OSX is $129, whereas other UNIX systems are several hundred dollars per license, and many commercial Linux systems are nearly as expensive.

TEG

i think you missed his point. how many people do you know are 'experts' at command line in linux? the operating systems are for different people. i use unix to manage databases. most people use os x to surf the internet and manage their photos. if i had to do that on linux, i'd probably throw the machine out the window.
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 05:32 PM   #23
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I like Ubuntu (haven't yet tried PCLinuxOS) and will put it on all my family's PCs once there is a decent way to install apps found on the web and a file browser suitable for newbies. Hopefully ZFS will be the standard in 10.6, and Linus will have nothing to criticise
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 05:33 PM   #24
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I have to say, though, that OS X, even with its rather confusing architecture shift, is a lot simpler than trying to figure out which binaries to get for your linux distribution, etc. Linux is really cool and well done when you look at individual ones, but it's such a hodge-podge when you take it all in, and the window managers really are pretty revolting.

But I heartily agree that it will be nice to get ZFS integration into OS X, checking off one more of the few really legitimate criticisms of the OS.
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Old Feb 5, 2008, 05:37 PM   #25
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I like Ubuntu (haven't yet tried PCLinuxOS) and will put it on all my family's PCs once there is a decent way to install apps found on the web and a file browser suitable for newbies. Hopefully ZFS will be the standard in 10.6, and Linus will have nothing to criticise
Since the Finder likely won't look/feel much different, he torpedo that as being utter crap because it isn't flexible enough.
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