PowerPC 970 at 90nm and the Power5

MacRumors · 12:33 PM

A Japanese news blurb reports that IBM will be presenting two papers at the 2004 ISSCC:

"Design and Implementation of the POWER5 Microprocessor"
"PowerPC 970 in 130nm and 90nm Technologies"

Current shipping PowerPC 970s utilize a 130nm process, though it was reported in September that IBM was already sampling 90nm chips. A 90nm chip would theoretically bring higher clockspeeds and lower heat production as compared to the corresponding 130nm chip.

Meanwhile, Microprocessor Watch is providing subscribers with more details about the Power5 from IBM's presentation at the Microprocessor Forum. MacWorld.co.uk notes that the Power5 will ship in 2004, with a Power5+ in 2005 and the Power6 in 2006. Notes from the same presentation were previously detailed in this report.

Meanwhile, a new AppleInsider report claims that 90nm chips will bring Apple above 2.0GHz while the PowerPC 980 (Power5 based) chip will bring Apple to 3GHz. If true this could confirm a previous report which claimed the same... that the 970 would top out at 2.6-2.8GHz, while the 980 would bring Apple to the 3GHz mark.

And a Page 2 report hints at specifically designed low-power mobile PowerPCs.

sethypoo · Nov 13, 2003, 11:13 AM

90NM.....cooler running.....I hate to bring this up but could we be seeing a G5 PowerBook a little sooner? I think so.....

arn · Nov 13, 2003, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sethypoo
90NM.....cooler running.....I hate to bring this up but could we be seeing a G5 PowerBook a little sooner? I think so.....

Um, I'm sure Jobs et all were aware of this logical step when he said it was going to take some time.

In other words, this is a natural progression... not a surprise advancement.

arn

mactastic · Nov 13, 2003, 11:23 AM

This should mean we are still on track for 3Ghz G5s by Q3 of 2004 right? And hopefully 2.4 - 2.6 Ghz updates in January?

And is the 90 nm process going to be the one that makes it into the PB? If so then hopefully we will see those before we see the 3Ghz PowerMacs.

dieselg4 · Nov 13, 2003, 11:35 AM

OK, now to incite seom speculation . . . andy tech types care to guess how much heat a 90 nm G5 would produce, maybe at 1.6 GHz? And how might that realate to the heat a 1.33 GHz G4 produces? Granted I haven't see one up close for very long, but the heat sink for the G5 looksa like it almost ans tall as the case is wide. . .

Rincewind42 · Nov 13, 2003, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dieselg4
Granted I haven't see one up close for very long, but the heat sink for the G5 looksa like it almost ans tall as the case is wide. . .

It is nearly as tall as the case is wide. But that's just so that there is a large area for air to flow over, which means that the heat can dissipate faster, the fans can run slower, etc. Don't be fooled by the size of the heat sinks - the G5 doesn't put off that much heat

dongmin · Nov 13, 2003, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mactastic
This should mean we are still on track for 3Ghz G5s by Q3 of 2004 right? And hopefully 2.4 - 2.6 Ghz updates in January?

And is the 90 nm process going to be the one that makes it into the PB? If so then hopefully we will see those before we see the 3Ghz PowerMacs.

I take this to mean that Apple will have shipping 90nm products by then. My guess is for revised Power Macs, with an outside chance for iMacs. And yes, we should be on track for a 3 ghz G5 in Q3 2004. It might come even sooner than that. Supposedly, they had 3.2 ghz chips sampling way back last September.

Quoting an earlier rumor the 90nm G5 dissipates 34 W at 2.0 ghz. So a 1.6 ghz G5 should come in around 27 W, probably too high for a PowerBook but doable for a revised iMac. I'm sure the redesign of the iMac is specifically to accomodate the hotter running G5s.

iGav · Nov 13, 2003, 11:45 AM

woah, this feels kind of weird, after years of Moto, knowing that we've got regular substantial performance increases in the pipelines for the next few years atleast and probably way beyond...

feels good.... feels very good!!

AmigoMac · Nov 13, 2003, 11:47 AM

Someway, it means PB's coming, but how soon? I have a PB 12" and think a lot about selling it and get a 15", but would be a deal with this news? or will it take more than 1 year before the nice G5 gets into the PB? ohh no, it's pretty confusing ...

dieselg4 · Nov 13, 2003, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AmigoMac
Someway, it means PB's coming, but how soon? I have a PB 12" and think a lot about selling it and get a 15", but would be a deal with this news? or will it take more than 1 year before the nice G5 gets into the PB? ohh no, it's pretty confusing ...

Unless you really want a bigger screen, I'd keep the 12" for awhile. If you jsut got it, you take a loss on eBay to sell it. The 12" is a fine machine (I bought one myself) and its highly portable. Why spend another grand or so for a computer that isn't a whoel lot faster (unless you'd really like a bigger screen)

agreenster · Nov 13, 2003, 11:59 AM

Its GREAT to see serious progress happening in the Apple world.

For TOO long it was Motorola running the show (or should I say 'ruining' the show) and slowing down the release of new Apple hardware. Now that IBM is in the picture, it seems like they (Apple + IBM) will be keeping up with Intel when it comes to chip upgrading roadmaps and times.

Can I get an amen?

Samir 3.0 · Nov 13, 2003, 12:13 PM

I hope that theese cooler processors could allow Apple to put less fan inside the case to free some space for another HD.

I'm thinking about a SATA RAID with new WD Raptor.

hayesk · Nov 13, 2003, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dieselg4
OK, now to incite seom speculation . . . andy tech types care to guess how much heat a 90 nm G5 would produce, maybe at 1.6 GHz? And how might that realate to the heat a 1.33 GHz G4 produces? Granted I haven't see one up close for very long, but the heat sink for the G5 looksa like it almost ans tall as the case is wide. . .

The G5 by itself is irrelevant. You also have to consider the support chips that go along with it. There may be an issue with the power consumption and heat dissipation of those too.

mrsebastian · Nov 13, 2003, 12:46 PM

i can't wait for g5 17"pb!! though i think it will probably be later than sooner, it's just a matter of time.

dho · Nov 13, 2003, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hayesk
The G5 by itself is irrelevant. You also have to consider the support chips that go along with it. There may be an issue with the power consumption and heat dissipation of those too.

I would hardly say it is irrelevant. Yes, other chips and systems play a role in heat disipation, but not nearly as much as the procesor itself.

Also dieselg4 was refering to chips running at lower speeds then currently used. From what I understand, the high performance and heat generating chips scale down with the procesor anyway.

dho · Nov 13, 2003, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dongmin
I take this to mean that Apple will have shipping 90nm products by then. My guess is for revised Power Macs, with an outside chance for iMacs. And yes, we should be on track for a 3 ghz G5 in Q3 2004. It might come even sooner than that. Supposedly, they had 3.2 ghz chips sampling way back last September.

Quoting an earlier rumor the 90nm G5 dissipates 34 W at 2.0 ghz. So a 1.6 ghz G5 should come in around 27 W, probably too high for a PowerBook but doable for a revised iMac. I'm sure the redesign of the iMac is specifically to accomodate the hotter running G5s.

I dont believe the relationship between clockspeed and disipation is linear.

The 1.6 should have a much lower disipation.

Remus · Nov 13, 2003, 01:39 PM

AMEN

sethypoo · Nov 13, 2003, 01:41 PM

Wow, 3Ghz by Q3 of 2004? Geez, Apple + IBM=Speedy Gonzales.

It's so nice to see Apple having a good partnership with a company that cares about its image.

sethypoo · Nov 13, 2003, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by arn
Um, I'm sure Jobs et all were aware of this logical step when he said it was going to take some time.

In other words, this is a natural progression... not a surprise advancement.

arn

Just thinking out loud.

Geez. (my new word.).

Rocketman · Nov 13, 2003, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by agreenster
Its GREAT to see serious progress happening in the Apple world.

For TOO long it was Motorola running the show (or should I say 'ruining' the show) and slowing down the release of new Apple hardware. Now that IBM is in the picture, it seems like they (Apple + IBM) will be keeping up with Intel when it comes to chip upgrading roadmaps and times.

Can I get an amen?

Send IBM a thank you card! I bet that has never happpened to them before from OEM's customers!

Rocketman

http://www.v-serv.com/-upload/avatar2.jpg

ksz · Nov 13, 2003, 02:01 PM

Quote:

sethypoo:
Wow, 3Ghz by Q3 of 2004? Geez, Apple + IBM=Speedy Gonzales.

If the following is true, the 3GHz PowerMac will be based on the PPC 980 which is much more than a speed-bumped increment.

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/...06031041.shtml

Excerpt:

"Improvements in the PPC 980 include Hyperthreading, eLiza error correction, and more massive parallelism. IBM's implementation of hyperthreading provides a 30% gain over Intel's. eLiza technology will reduce the bottlenecks when the branch prediction unit fails. Altivec will split into 3 pipelines (vs 2 in the 970), 4 Integer and 4 Floating point units. 980 will have to be built on a 90nm processor due to heat dissipation requirements.

Steve's comment of 3GHz in 1 year will not be accomplished with the G5 (970) - which will top out at 2.6-2.8GHz. The PPC 980 will start at speeds of 2.6-3GHz and top out around 4.5-5GHz. The G5 will make its way into PowerBook lines in Jan/Feb, Xserve's later this year, and iMacs in approximately one year."

According to AppleInsider, current 980 samples are showing "huge performance gains over the G5":

http://www.appleinsider.com/news/

BenRoethig · Nov 13, 2003, 02:09 PM

I think this article also implies the 980 will keep the G5 name. I'm not surprised though. If true, I'm very happy with the direction IBM is taking the PPC.

macMaestro · Nov 13, 2003, 02:29 PM

Steve said that the G5 would reach 3 Ghz by next June. If the PPC 970 cannot reach 3 Ghz, I take it to mean that whatever chip does reach 3 Ghz would still be called a G5. If that rumor that ksz submitted is true, then I would assume that we would keep the name G5 through the 990. We might get the G6 name for the 9900. Then again, Apple's marketing might want to do the opposite and go through a new G name for each new chip.

Man though, 45nm in four years. That's pretty darn small (and leads to a pretty darn fast chip!)

gwuMACaddict · Nov 13, 2003, 02:32 PM

nice to see that IBM and apple are working together and taking this serioiusly. had moto not sucked so bad for so long, i feel like apples market share would have been a lot higher today. it will be interesting to see if there is any shift now that IBM is on board with chips

ksz · Nov 13, 2003, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by macMaestro
If the PPC 970 cannot reach 3 Ghz, I take it to mean that whatever chip does reach 3 Ghz would still be called a G5.

I would tend to agree, however Apple might introduce a suitable marketing buzzword to differentiate the "new G5" from the old G5. For example, when Intel added (or more properly, enabled) Hyper Threading on the P4, they still called it a P4 but displayed the words Hyper Threading prominently on packaging, advertising, press releases, etc. Intel wanted to make it clear that this chip was something special, but not special enough to warrant a new base name.

Nov 13, 2003, 11:08 AM	#1
MacRumors macrumors bot Join Date: Apr 2001	PowerPC 970 at 90nm and the Power5 A Japanese news blurb reports that IBM will be presenting two papers at the 2004 ISSCC: "Design and Implementation of the POWER5 Microprocessor" "PowerPC 970 in 130nm and 90nm Technologies" Current shipping PowerPC 970s utilize a 130nm process, though it was reported in September that IBM was already sampling 90nm chips. A 90nm chip would theoretically bring higher clockspeeds and lower heat production as compared to the corresponding 130nm chip. Meanwhile, Microprocessor Watch is providing subscribers with more details about the Power5 from IBM's presentation at the Microprocessor Forum. MacWorld.co.uk notes that the Power5 will ship in 2004, with a Power5+ in 2005 and the Power6 in 2006. Notes from the same presentation were previously detailed in this report. Meanwhile, a new AppleInsider report claims that 90nm chips will bring Apple above 2.0GHz while the PowerPC 980 (Power5 based) chip will bring Apple to 3GHz. If true this could confirm a previous report which claimed the same... that the 970 would top out at 2.6-2.8GHz, while the 980 would bring Apple to the 3GHz mark. And a Page 2 report hints at specifically designed low-power mobile PowerPCs. Last edited by arn : Nov 13, 2003 at 12:33 PM.

Nov 13, 2003, 11:13 AM	#2
sethypoo macrumors 68000 Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Sacramento, CA, USA	90NM.....cooler running.....I hate to bring this up but could we be seeing a G5 PowerBook a little sooner? I think so..... __________________ Weeeeeee!

Nov 13, 2003, 11:23 AM	#4
mactastic macrumors 68040 Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Colly-fornia	This should mean we are still on track for 3Ghz G5s by Q3 of 2004 right? And hopefully 2.4 - 2.6 Ghz updates in January? And is the 90 nm process going to be the one that makes it into the PB? If so then hopefully we will see those before we see the 3Ghz PowerMacs. __________________ "Republicans, I think you are confusing tyranny with losing." -- Jon Stewart

Nov 13, 2003, 11:45 AM	#8
iGav macrumors 601 Join Date: Mar 2002	woah, this feels kind of weird, after years of Moto, knowing that we've got regular substantial performance increases in the pipelines for the next few years atleast and probably way beyond... feels good.... feels very good!! __________________ "Flick the Gestapo.... No, I said Flick, the Gestapo!"

Nov 13, 2003, 11:47 AM	#9
AmigoMac macrumors 68020 Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: l'Allemagne	ohhh man... now I gotta think more... Someway, it means PB's coming, but how soon? I have a PB 12" and think a lot about selling it and get a 15", but would be a deal with this news? or will it take more than 1 year before the nice G5 gets into the PB? ohh no, it's pretty confusing ... __________________ No Mac no fun...

Nov 13, 2003, 11:35 AM	#5
dieselg4 macrumors regular Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Rockin' Pittsburgh!	OK, now to incite seom speculation . . . andy tech types care to guess how much heat a 90 nm G5 would produce, maybe at 1.6 GHz? And how might that realate to the heat a 1.33 GHz G4 produces? Granted I haven't see one up close for very long, but the heat sink for the G5 looksa like it almost ans tall as the case is wide. . .

Nov 13, 2003, 11:59 AM	#11
agreenster macrumors 68000 Join Date: Dec 2001	Its GREAT to see serious progress happening in the Apple world. For TOO long it was Motorola running the show (or should I say 'ruining' the show) and slowing down the release of new Apple hardware. Now that IBM is in the picture, it seems like they (Apple + IBM) will be keeping up with Intel when it comes to chip upgrading roadmaps and times. Can I get an amen?

Nov 13, 2003, 12:13 PM	#12
Samir 3.0 macrumors newbie Join Date: May 2003	I hope that theese cooler processors could allow Apple to put less fan inside the case to free some space for another HD. I'm thinking about a SATA RAID with new WD Raptor.

Nov 13, 2003, 12:46 PM	#14
mrsebastian macrumors 6502a Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: sunny san diego	i can't wait for g5 17"pb!! though i think it will probably be later than sooner, it's just a matter of time. __________________ [ding]

Nov 13, 2003, 01:39 PM	#17
Remus macrumors member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Newcastle, Washington (Bill's backyard)	AMEN __________________ The only dumb question is the one not asked.... Apple's iApps are great, but if Micro$oft made one it would be called iSuck. PM G-4 400 MHZ w/800Mhz upgrade card 1.5 GB 80 & 20 GB HD's

Nov 13, 2003, 01:41 PM	#18
sethypoo macrumors 68000 Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Sacramento, CA, USA	Wow, 3Ghz by Q3 of 2004? Geez, Apple + IBM=Speedy Gonzales. It's so nice to see Apple having a good partnership with a company that cares about its image. __________________ Weeeeeee!

Nov 13, 2003, 02:09 PM	#22
BenRoethig macrumors 68030 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Dubuque, Iowa	I think this article also implies the 980 will keep the G5 name. I'm not surprised though. If true, I'm very happy with the direction IBM is taking the PPC.

Nov 13, 2003, 02:29 PM	#23
macMaestro macrumors regular Join Date: Sep 2003	Steve said that the G5 would reach 3 Ghz by next June. If the PPC 970 cannot reach 3 Ghz, I take it to mean that whatever chip does reach 3 Ghz would still be called a G5. If that rumor that ksz submitted is true, then I would assume that we would keep the name G5 through the 990. We might get the G6 name for the 9900. Then again, Apple's marketing might want to do the opposite and go through a new G name for each new chip. Man though, 45nm in four years. That's pretty darn small (and leads to a pretty darn fast chip!)

Nov 13, 2003, 02:32 PM	#24
gwuMACaddict macrumors 68040 Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: washington dc	nice to see that IBM and apple are working together and taking this serioiusly. had moto not sucked so bad for so long, i feel like apples market share would have been a lot higher today. it will be interesting to see if there is any shift now that IBM is on board with chips __________________ *"if everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking"*

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