AOL Turns iPhone into Radio

[MacRumors]

NYTimes provides details on the upcoming AOL Radio application for the iPhone that won an Apple Design Award at this year's WWDC.

According to the article, the new AOL Radio application will connect to AOL's servers over the EDGE, 3G or Wi-Fi and based on your GPS location will tune you to the nearest local CBS radio station. Users will have access to about 200 AOL and 150 CBS stations in 25 different genres. The application and service are free but will be ad-supported, much like traditional radio.

Apple provides a bit more information on the Apple Design Award winner page:

Reliable audio streaming and improved battery life are achieved by using AudioFileServices and AudioQueueServices, while SCNetwork manages the best narrowband or broadband streaming based on whether users are connected via EDGE or Wi-Fi.

According to AOL VP Kevin Conroy, the application's sound quality is "as good as listening to a CD".

Article Link

[flatulence]

yeah, but accompanied by 'GSM Buzz"

[yoda13]

assuming this works well on the first generation iPhone with Edge and doesn't just "skip" along, then I am very intrigued by this...

[levitynyc]

Edge would skip

[yoda13]

Originally Posted by levitynyc

Edge would skip

Does it say that in the article, I did not read the whole thing verbatim, but in my skimming and the clips in the thread it seems to indicate Edge would work, what am I missing?

[Tosser]

One has to wonder if the GPS-information on your wereabouts are kept, and how much is logged in the first place …

Frankly, I don't like the idea at all.

[NewSc2]

Originally Posted by Tosser

One has to wonder if the GPS-information on your wereabouts are kept, and how much is logged in the first place …

Frankly, I don't like the idea at all.

???

I don't understand your point of view. What's to stop Apple or AT&T (or any website you browse) from keeping track of your GPS information wherever you go? Why do you only care if you're listening to radio?

Frankly, I'd rather have the option of listening to radio than not. Even with the remote tinfoil-hat possibility of them keeping track of my whereabouts.

EDIT: keeping track of my whereabouts for *evil* purposes. muhuhahahaah.

[tony22]

Originally Posted by Tosser

One has to wonder if the GPS-information on your wereabouts are kept, and how much is logged in the first place …

Frankly, I don't like the idea at all.

and will most likely be used to inform the adverts channelled

[robecq]

i bought an ipod so i didn't have to listen to crap from the radio

[ArtOfWarfare]

No XM radio then? (Is it even AM/FM or is it something completely different?)

[Mac-Addict]

If the GPS is constantly updating then thats going to kill battery pretty fast, plus if your GPS location is being sent out to an AOL server all the time I would be a bit worried. And no AT&T and Apple cannot see your GPS location unless they have an application on the iPhone which is sending them that data.

[razorianfly]

This I am interested in.

Radio for iPod - bring it on.

R-Fly

[Tosser]

Originally Posted by NewSc2

???

I don't understand your point of view. What's to stop Apple or AT&T (or any website you browse) from keeping track of your GPS information wherever you go? Why do you only care if you're listening to radio?

Erm, do you know what GPS is?

In order for them keeping track of your exact position by means of the GPS, it has to broadcast the position. This would be a fatal flaw in a browser if any site could get access to that information.

So, why do I care when it's radio? I don't care if it's radio at all. I care that a (private) company will log one's position for god knows how long and especially because of the patriotic acts, where the state can gain access to that information on a whim. Not to mention the basic problem that that information collected (if collected) can be sold on. It's a matter of principle.

Frankly, I'd rather have the option of listening to radio than not. Even with the remote tinfoil-hat possibility of them keeping track of my whereabouts.

It's certainly not "tin-foil", it's a matter of principle. I know some people will sell out of those if given a spoonful of entertainment. You're obviously one of them. I'm sorry to hear you have no qualms about anything, just as long as you're fed some entertainment.

EDIT: keeping track of my whereabouts for *evil* purposes. muhuhahahaah.

Ah yes, next you'll tell me, that people that don't do anything illegal will have nothing to worry about. Guess what, read up on old China and the Soviet Union. You might see a concrete problem there. And you might learn why principles are principles and shouldn't be for sale for a spoonful of ice.

Originally Posted by Mac-Addict

If the GPS is constantly updating then thats going to kill battery pretty fast, plus if your GPS location is being sent out to an AOL server all the time I would be a bit worried. And no AT&T and Apple cannot see your GPS location unless they have an application on the iPhone which is sending them that data.

But the thing is, they ARE sending that data. It need to, as it sends your location so it can serve you the netversion of the radio channel in your area.

I hope they're not logging it, though, then it's fine.

Add: A net-radio app is great, but it would save quite a lot of batteri and bandwidth if Apple had put a small radio chip in there, using the headphone cable as antenna. You know, just like most other manufacturers. This way it wouldn't need to make use of gps to give you _local_ stations.

[daveschroeder]

iPhone applications that use CoreLocation (i.e., ANY application that desires to access your location) will ALWAYS PROMPT for permission to use your location. You must explicitly grant such permission to any application that requests to use your location.

Arguments about "but Apple and/or AT&T might be tracking me" or "they might be secretly/inappropriately using/tracking/logging my location!"...uh, you guys do realize that dozens of other handsets from various manufacturers via various carriers have had GPS and other location capabilities for quite some time. ALL handsets sold in the US provide some level of location functionality for E911. Using that paranoid logic, all carriers and all handset makers could be secretly tracking the location of their users. So please, let's not start a bunch of paranoia about the iPhone, when many other phones have had GPS for literally years.

And while I don't know exactly how the AOL application works, you also realize that it is actually technically possible for all of the location magic to happen on the handset itself; the application could contain indexes of all local sources for all locales, and simply provide you with pointers to local services based on your location. It's probably not doing it that way, but it's still possible. It's possibly for AOL to also only use generic location information from the phone; i.e., an exact latitude and longitude may correspond only to Oakland, CA, and then services are provisioned on the basis of a broader geographic area.

This is a service you can choose to use, or not. If you want to grant the AOL Radio application permission to use your location to provide you with local content, go for it. If you are paranoid and think somehow AOL must certainly be misusing this information, and don't believe their privacy policies, etc., then by all means, don't use it. And if you're that paranoid, you'd better not have any cell phone, and probably shouldn't use any form of currency other than cash. "They" might be tracking you.

[Tosser]

Originally Posted by daveschroeder

iPhone applications will ALWAYS PROMPT for permission to use your location. You must explicitly grant such permission to any application that requests to use your location.

I am talking about logging. Not necessarily the broadcast itself.

Arguments about "but Apple and/or AT&T might be tracking me" or "they might be secretly/inappropriately using/tracking/logging my location!"...uh, you guys do realize that dozens of other handsets from various manufacturers via various carriers have had GPS and other location capabilities for quite some time. ALL handsets sold in the US provide some level of location functionality for E911.

Ah, yes, I forgot that Big Brother is abound in the US. Sorry, I forgot that. There's no such "features" around here.

Using that paranoid logic, all carriers and all handset makers could be secretly tracking the location of your users. So please, let's not start a bunch of paranoia about the iPhone, when many other phones have had GPS for literally years.

Erm, even if other handsets do it, it's still a worry. Just because everyone else is doing something, doesn't mean it's great. That is the McDonald's argument.

Besides. Not all manufacturers do it. Not all handsets do it. The world is bigger than Big Brother US of A. It doesn't happen here in Denmark, for one.

This is a service you can choose to use, or not. If you want to grant the AOL Radio application permission to use your location to provide you with local content, go for it. If you are paranoid and think somehow AOL must certainly be misusing this information, and don't believe their privacy policies, etc., then by all means, don't use it.

Again, I'm talking about logging it. I am talking about a severe lack of transparancy (as of now, that is).

And if you're that paranoid, you'd better not have any cell phone, and probably shouldn't use any form of currency other than cash.

Ah, yes, how "patriotic" and flag waving of you.

Talk about a strawman argument. I'm not paranoid, I'm european, and here we do not like to give out information that has the potential to be misused, whether by a government or simply by a private company using it for whatever purpose it sees fit. It's the principle about not collecting or giving information you wouldn't give to your worst enemy. It's the principle of not wanting surveillance, because surveillance inherently have the potential to be misused. And as such, it's the logging I wonder about. Will they selll your information to some third party? Will they use it to spam you with adverts from the shops in your area? And on and on.

This certainly has potential if one felt like abusing it (as it stands now).

[daveschroeder]

So let me get this straight...you'd be proud that you don't have location based services on wireless handsets for emergency services? E911 has been in use in the US for years, and its capabilities and allowed uses are well known. Sorry, but it has nothing to do with "Big Brother". Unfortunately, you seem to not be aware of services in your own country:

E112 is a location-enhanced version of 112. The telecom operator transmits the location information to the emergency centre. The EU Directive E112 (2003) requires mobile phone networks to provide emergency services with whatever information they have about the location a mobile call was made. This directive is based on the [US] FCC's Enhanced 911 ruling in 2001.

The new eCall project for automated emergency calls from cars is based on E112.

See EU Directive 2002/22/EC for more info. Also, see here for general information on the EU-wide 112 initiatives...in fact, one of its biggest priorities was to provide location information to emergency services. Of all EU nations, only Bulgaria has yet to implement enhanced 112 services.

Notably,

What improvements are needed? Although EU Member States have made substantial progress in introducing 112 and making it work, they still need to improve the following areas:

- integrated emergency centres, combining ambulance, fire brigade and police, are not yet common, although they have proved to be efficient;

- the ability of operators and personnel in emergency centres to speak several languages;

- dealing with hoax calls, that account for about 60% of calls to emergency services, and pose a threat to the efficiency of the emergency response;

- in some Member States, emergency centres are still unable to determine the location of a caller;

- automatic in-vehicle emergency calls: according to an action plan agreed between the Commission and industry, all new cars should be equipped with “eCall” from 2010 onwards. This technology will call the emergency services in case of an accident, using 112 to send accident data, including the car's location. Many Member States need to upgrade their infrastructure to enable the emergency services to receive and process the eCall data;

- information to citizens: although awareness of 112 has risen in the EU over the past few years, the Commission believes that there is still room for improvement.

Indeed, apparently there is room for improvement...

See, the US's E911 implementation is so comprehensive and well done from a technical and procedural perspective that the EU chose to base its location-enhanced emergency services and public safety call center functionality on it.

As for location-based services on the iPhone, CoreLocation gives you the explicit choice to grant such access to your location to an application, or not. Based on the application provider, their stated privacy policy — which, I'll point out, we have NO IDEA what AOL's is with respect to this application, considering the application isn't even available yet — and other factors, you can make a decision as to whether to grant such access.

And uh, that last statement isn't "patriotic" or "flag waving", not is it a strawman. Any financial institution — globally — "could" be (and, frankly, is, by necessity) "tracking" your transactions. It's all about the trust relationship the consumer has with the provider of a product or service. You let your financial institution (credit/debit card provider or equivalent, etc.) "track" your activity, in exchange for the convenience of the services. Of course, "track" is a loaded word here. It's logged because it has to be.

We don't know whether AOL is logging location information, because the application hasn't even shipped yet, and we have no access to any privacy statement, nor do we even know if there will be one. Yet you seem to be jumping to the worst possible conclusions. This doesn't have anything to do with the US.

I know it's fashionable to despise the US these days. I hold no ill will toward Europe or Europeans, but you might want to reconsider how horrid the US is on balance. Way to somehow turn it into a US issue, when globally, hundreds of various brands of handsets on numerous carriers have some type of location functionality, from tower triangulation to GPS/A-GPS.

[Tosser]

Originally Posted by daveschroeder

So let me get this straight...you'd be proud that you don't have location based services on wireless handsets for emergency services? E911 has been in use in the US for years, and its capabilities and allowed uses are well known. Sorry, but it has nothing to do with "Big Brother". Unfortunately, you seem to not be aware of services in your own country:

Whoops. See, the US's E911 implementation is so comprehensive and well done from a technical and procedural perspective that the EU chose to base its location-enhanced emergency services and public safety call center functionality on it.

Actually, there's no "woops" there at all. Where do you see "GPS" in that? A "cell phone tower" is far from your GPS-position. The "cell phone provider" does not have access to people's exact whereabouts made with GPS. Please do some better research before you begin to go "woops". The reason of course being, that here the potential to be misused outweighed the benefits.

As for location-based services on the iPhone, CoreLocation gives you the explicit choice to grant such access to your location to an application, or not.

I don't care if the "user has to give explicit choice to grant" such a thing. As an analogy, som people also jump - with eyes open - into pyramid schemes. It's not an argument that because people can choose to click "yes" or "no", then everything is all right. See how long you can take that argument. If you can use it with everything, then fine. If you at some point hit a wall where you think it can't be used, then your argument is invalid. And you will hit that wall.

Based on the application provider, their stated privacy policy — which, I'll point out, we have NO IDEA what AOL's is with respect to this application, considering the application isn't even available yet

As I have said numerous times: It's the logging I'm worried about, the potential of abuse and whether it will be sold on to advertisers.

— and other factors, you can make a decision as to whether to grant such access.

As I've said before, that argument doesn't fly.

And uh, that last statement isn't "patriotic" or "flag waving", not is it a strawman.

It certainly is. It's a strawman (and an ad hominem).
It's "patriotic" and "flag waving", because you use the same rhetoric and the same argument, that if one is a bit worried about the potential of abuse of something like this, all of sudden one is declared one of the "tin-foil"-crowd, because one must apparently be one of them if one doesn't trust big corporations and a cheating, lying government with information such as that.
It reminds me too much of the flag waving "patriots" when Iraq began. You know, the ones that trusted the government on everything, including the WMD, and if people asked for proof, they too were tin-foil hat wearing idjits.

Any financial institution — globally — "could" be (and, frankly, <i>is</i>, by necessity) "tracking" your transactions.

Yes, they are. And many are selling the information as well. The thing is, that this has the potntial to go much, much further. And it's not just transactions, it's has the potntial to place you physically at any given time.
And since that is my worry, not whether I say, am logged as "phone-number xxxx is listening to that channel", but actually surveil me, I'm worried. You pretending I'm saying I have some against any form of logging, any form of "file" is indeed a strawman, as I never said any such thing.

It's all about the trust relationship the consumer has with the provider of a product or service.

Yes it is. And as I have stated, I don't trust _anyone_ to have access to my exact position (over time).

You let your financial institution (credit/debit card provider or equivalent, etc.) "track" your activity, in exchange for the convenience of the services.

Yes, but as I have pointed out, you're making a strawman.
I'm not letting my bank know my physical whereabouts, nor would I allow my bank to even ask what I do on, say, weekends. A future employer aren't even allowed to ask those questions by law.

Of course, "track" is a loaded word here. It's logged because it has to be.

Yes, at first. For the session? I could live with that. For five years? Never.

We don't know whether AOL is logging location information, because the application hasn't even shipped yet, and we have no access to any privacy statement, nor do we even know if there will be one. Yet you seem to be jumping to the worst possible conclusions. This doesn't have anything to do with the US.

No, I'm not jumping to the worst possible conclusions. I am stating that it's worrying broadcasting your GPS-location if it's logged. Then some of you americans jump all over me, stating there is no such problems, and that "we" are surveilled all the time, stating that surveillance is fine, just as long as you get something for it. Arguing that every handset and provider log your gps-position and on and on. And you wonder, why I say something about the patriotic acts and the US?

I know it's fashionable to despise the US these days. I hold no ill will toward Europe or Europeans, but you might want to reconsider how horrid the US is on balance.

Funny you should mention that. Look at their front page right now. This is their top story:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/...rica/gitmo.php

Way to somehow turn it into a US issue, when globally, hundreds of various brands of handsets on numerous carriers have some type of location functionality, from tower triangulation to GPS/A-GPS.

I'm pretty sure you cannot triangulate after the fact.
Secondly, at least in this country, the police will have to have a warrant to even begin persuading the phone companies. Oh, and they have to pay for it too.

[MathiasMag]

Originally Posted by Tosser

I'm pretty sure you cannot triangulate after the fact.
Secondly, at least in this country, the police will have to have a warrant to even begin persuading the phone companies. Oh, and they have to pay for it too.

Each cell tower logs this and your whereabouts can be found out after the fact. There was recently a case where an American was released from jail in South America after they among other things proved where he was on the highway when a murder was committed.

If you trust AOL more than the phone companies, then I'd be tempted to agree. But the argument here is not about radio, it is about all and any use of location services.

Also, the current use of location in the current version of the iPhone uses triangulation of cell towers and wifi hotspots. This information could also be logged by Apple (as I'm sure the correlation of the signals to your location isn't done on the iPhone).

What do you think about Loopt? Is that also something you'd avoid? It seems like something that would be a big hit with just about every teenager who ever logged into facebook or myspace.

The easy solution for those who dislike this is probably to leave GPS of, not download the apps they don,t like, or not allow the apps to send their location.

Personally, I think location based services will become really big and may be come the next killer app for the mobile device. As always, it is up to everyone to decide which companies you are willing to trust.

About the argument that the police would have to persuade the phone company to get access to the data. You don't mean to say that you believe that AOL will call up the police in Denmark to offer up the data about you incase they could use it? Even if this was an app intended for Denmark, why would the company in Denmark offer it to the police more willingly than the phone company?

[honeycrisp]

Sweet! Great idea.

[daveschroeder]

Tosser,

You have now demonstrated twice that you are misinformed about what is happening with enhanced emergency services in the EU and in your own country, and you're lecturing me? That's rich.

Actually, E112 does use GPS, in addition to at least a half-dozen other mechanisms for determining handset location: "A-GPS has been selected as the preferred means of location by a growing number of operators in Europe, US and Asia." The means via which location information is provided to emergency services is not specified; however, any and all location data — which includes A-GPS and any other mechanisms for determining location — is provided to the emergency services call center (the equivalent of the US Public Safety Answering Point (PSAP)).

I suppose the irony here is that one of the mechanisms the EU is using to provide critical and life-saving global positioning data to emergency services and first responders is a system the US military built three decades ago. Perhaps when Galileo becomes operational in 2013 (?) it will be another option...

I'm not bashing Europe, and didn't bring up Europe, so I have no idea why you're continuously bringing the US and politics into this.

Your position seems to be one that the user cannot be trusted and/or is too stupid to make their own choices. You also appear to be singling out the iPhone, when this sort of thing is possible with nearly ANY modern handset.

What, specifically, do you expect to occur? How should this be addressed? Are you suggesting that there should be an Apple or legal requirement of some sort that mandates that mobile applications cannot log and/or sell location data? You seem to be making the argument that users won't be smart enough to make choices for themselves, so you'd prefer they be made for them — by the government, perhaps?

If you're arguing that there should be transparency with respect to how/why location data will be used on the part of applications that do so, you'll get no arguments from me. But ultimately, your choice to use an application (or not), or to grant an application permission to use your location data (or not) is yours. No one should mandate what you can or can't do with your own personal information.

Nor did I ever make any such arguments that "everyone does it, so it's ok", or "we're already being surveilled all the time anyway, so who cares". I said that we don't even know the privacy policy for this (or any) application, and you're assuming the worst. This isn't an iPhone issue. This is an issue of trust between a customer and a provider. The iPhone is a platform. It has certain capabilities. You can choose to use them, and to interact with services that use them. Simple as that.

[mwpeters8182]

Originally Posted by Tosser

Yes, but as I have pointed out, you're making a strawman.
I'm not letting my bank know my physical whereabouts, nor would I allow my bank to even ask what I do on, say, weekends. A future employer aren't even allowed to ask those questions by law.

And you wonder, why I say something about the patriotic acts and the US?

First of all, you ARE allowing the bank to log your physical whereabouts. Any time you use a credit/debit card, there's a log of exactly where you've used it. So it's really just a matter of resolution - I'd bet they're reading your location when you open the program, and not constantly while you're using it. So in that case, it's exactly the same as using your bank card.

And secondly, if you're going to rail against something, know what it's called. It's the USA PATRIOT act, not the "patriotic acts" - it's an acronym (Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism). I don't like the idea as much as the next person, but people are less likely to listen to your arguments if you sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.

[stagi]

I think this is pretty cool. And I really don't care if someone knows my whereabouts, I choose not to live a paranoid life.

[daveschroeder]

Originally Posted by mwpeters8182

And secondly, if you're going to rail against something, know what it's called. It's the USA PATRIOT act, not the "patriotic acts" - it's an acronym (Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism). I don't like the idea as much as the next person, but people are less likely to listen to your arguments if you sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.

In fairness, I think he was literally talking about "patriotic acts" (apparently it is somehow "flag waving" and "patriotic" for me to point out that if he's that paranoid, he should only be using cash), as opposed to the USA PATRIOT Act...but since he's already demonstrated his lack of awareness of EU emergency location services for wireless handsets, and is essentially implying that somehow users are too stupid to make decisions about how to use their personal or private information themselves (cf. pyramid scheme assertion), I don't think the arguments really have any merit.

Back to that topic...

I'm open to a coherent, logical version of whatever argument was being attempted...currently it just appears to be complaining about a service about which we know absolutely nothing, and is no different, technically, from something that could be done by every other modern handset and wireless carrier around the world. The point is for the customer to be able to make an informed decision. If the service provider doesn't provide that capability, then don't use the service.

I could make an iPhone application that does nothing but log someone's movements. Someone might find that a useful service. There are a variety of disclosures I might — or might not — make about how I use or don't use that data. I might log it. I might keep it private. I might sell it. I may issue targeted ads or related services. Whether to use such a service, based on my reputation, my stated use of the information, my privacy policy (if any), the service's utility, and so on, should be completely up to the user.

Individual privacy and the security of your personal information is your own responsibility, and no one else's — and that includes responsibility for entities to whom you entrust your personal information. Banks, retailers, Google, Apple, government organizations, employers, health care providers, and countless others. We have come to expect specific protections in some areas; medical records are an example in the US and many other places. Your own private residence or vehicle is another example. However, if you explicitly grant permission for the government, a company, or any other entity to have access to your personal information, that's your choice.

Maybe you receive some benefit from it. Maybe someone pays you for it, in money, or in goods or services. It's all about cost-benefit, and people should be free to make their own choices. If someone wants to sell their location — or their soul — for a few bucks or free internet radio, that's their choice. There don't need to be legal prohibitions on everything that someone who fancies themselves as more "enlightened" than others disagrees with.

[bretm]

Originally Posted by Tosser

Erm, do you know what GPS is?

In order for them keeping track of your exact position by means of the GPS, it has to broadcast the position. This would be a fatal flaw in a browser if any site could get access to that information.

So, why do I care when it's radio? I don't care if it's radio at all. I care that a (private) company will log one's position for god knows how long and especially because of the patriotic acts, where the state can gain access to that information on a whim. Not to mention the basic problem that that information collected (if collected) can be sold on. It's a matter of principle.



It's certainly not "tin-foil", it's a matter of principle. I know some people will sell out of those if given a spoonful of entertainment. You're obviously one of them. I'm sorry to hear you have no qualms about anything, just as long as you're fed some entertainment.




Ah yes, next you'll tell me, that people that don't do anything illegal will have nothing to worry about. Guess what, read up on old China and the Soviet Union. You might see a concrete problem there. And you might learn why principles are principles and shouldn't be for sale for a spoonful of ice.



But the thing is, they ARE sending that data. It need to, as it sends your location so it can serve you the netversion of the radio channel in your area.

I hope they're not logging it, though, then it's fine.

Add: A net-radio app is great, but it would save quite a lot of batteri and bandwidth if Apple had put a small radio chip in there, using the headphone cable as antenna. You know, just like most other manufacturers. This way it wouldn't need to make use of gps to give you _local_ stations.

Auugh. Here's the thing. At most they'll know your IP. And if you're on WiFi at some bar, it's meaningless. Maybe they can get more info from a edge ip or a 3G ip, but they still won't know who you are or even if you're a repeat caller. All they're going to get is your GPS info. Yes they might be able to specify ads, but I guarantee they're not going to be that specific. It's not like you're driving by Joe's Tire Shack and you'll get an ad for that. MAYBE a zip code specific ad at best, but most likely a ad for that region. What the hell is AOL going to do with the info so and so IP or device # is usually located at so and so street corner between 8 and 10 am? It's not worth selling unless they have your email as well. Which brings us to that question... do they get your emal?

[radiogod69]

CD quality radio through 3g, hmm I wonder how much this will suck up battery life vs GPS.