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Old May 23, 2002, 04:02 PM   #1
mischief
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Talking Big picture // HUGE picture.

With all the threads about politics, sexual preference, enlightenment and Bono I thought I'd start a thread on the HUGE picture. The HUGE picture is taken on a planetary scale with a temporal resolution of no less than ten years.

Ex:

In the Big picture it's a shame Israel uses Genocide as an excuse for it's existance while commiting Genocide against Palestine.

In the Huge picture it's a shame that the peoples of the middle east can't just get over it and live as the ONE family they really are.


This trick of scale has a parental context and accompanies something called "the Cosmic Giggle" which stems from fact that Irony and Humor are saving graces often ignored but neccesary to survival and growth. Hence Mischief and his Pies.
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Old May 23, 2002, 04:15 PM   #2
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If the Arabs would stop attacking Israel and promoting the destruction and violence towards innocent people there would be no more fighting. The reason Israel was created was because there was no other way for Jews to live in the region and not be oppressed by the other arab states.

Israel has never started a conflict between the nations; each time they have to fight it is because the arabs attck and Israel has ot defend herself. If the arabs stopped attacking, then Israel would not be fighting back and hence no more mid-east violence.

When all your neighboring countries are against you, the need to attack 10 times stronger then you recieve is necessary for survival.
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Old May 23, 2002, 04:33 PM   #3
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Unhappy Hate to do this Teabgs but:

Quote:
Originally posted by teabgs
If the Arabs would stop attacking Israel and promoting the destruction and violence towards innocent people there would be no more fighting. The reason Israel was created was because there was no other way for Jews to live in the region and not be oppressed by the other arab states.

Israel has never started a conflict between the nations; each time they have to fight it is because the arabs attck and Israel has ot defend herself. If the arabs stopped attacking, then Israel would not be fighting back and hence no more mid-east violence.

When all your neighboring countries are against you, the need to attack 10 times stronger then you recieve is necessary for survival.
1. Granted: Violence begets violence, but there is more to it: The Allies drew up a map of the middle East with it's first boundries beyond "Redneck Geography" with Palestine where Israel is, then erased the word "Palestine", wrote in the word "Israel" and assumed no one would notice.


2. Not so: Call the whole thing Canaan. The name is old enough to cover both sides.

3. The whole thing is rediculous in the HUGE picture cuz they're all the same people. Israelis look different because they're genetically more European now than they were when last there was an Israel. As wrong as it is : If Israelis weren't visibly European there would have been intervention by now.

4. No one can own the land. Scoff if you want but I'm liking Redneck Geography for this context. There are TOO MANY COUNTRIES that aren't really countries. The British really screwed it all up by trying to put enough lines on the map to make everyone happy.
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Old May 23, 2002, 04:40 PM   #4
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Re: Big picture // HUGE picture.

Quote:
Originally posted by mischief

This trick of scale has a parental context and accompanies something called "the Cosmic Giggle" which stems from fact that Irony and Humor are saving graces often ignored but neccesary to survival and growth. Hence Mischief and his Pies.
Reminds me of a story told by Pema Chodron (a Vajrayana Buddhist nun). I don't remember which book it's in, so I'll paraphrase:

A god sees how his people bicker over stupid things, failing to see the big (or, HUGE ) picture, and decides to teach them a lesson. He manifests in all of his godly glory, walking down a road that has workers in the fields on either side, wearing a hat that is half red and half blue. After he leaves, all of the people gather and talk about how magnificent the god is, how awesome his appearance was, etc. Then one follower says, "He looked so inspiring, standing there in his blue hat!" Someone who was on the other side of the road says, "No! He was wearing a red hat!" They people begin to fight with words, building walls and throwing stones. Then the gods manifests a second time, this time walking down the road in the opposite direction. After he leaves, the people are stunned. "We must have seen wrong, he *was* wearing a red hat!" "No, it was our mistake, you were right - he was wearing a blue hat!" Now the people do not know whether to fight or be friends. So the god comes back a third time; this time he stands in the middle of the road, spins around, and begins dancing. All of the people, seeing the truth, begin to laugh.

I think it's that last bit that is so important - just as a moment of hate can undo eons of good karma, so can a moment of laughter and goodwill undo eons of evil.
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Old May 23, 2002, 04:43 PM   #5
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you have some valid points BUT:

1)Jews were very much insterested in creating a large Arab state without religion behind it. This was all before WW2 and the whole Allies thing ever happened. The Muslim extremists did not want the Jews and started propaganda and violence towards them that eventually led rise to some of Hitler's views....thus stemming WW2.

2)you cant just say all arabs are the same....most are good people. There is only a small percentage leading them that are evil and promote violence. For instance, Palestinians in schools are taught to fight the Jews and their friends wherever they encounter them. On palestinian TV children's shows have songs sung by 10 year old girls about young boys fighting and killing the Jews and dieing valiently in battle, thus going to heaven.

3)Israel has offered land to the palesinians as their own to be seperate from Israel. BUT since the land didnt include Jerusalem they deny it.

4)true the allies f*cked up big time with the borders, but that doesnt give the palestinians the right to kill people. there is no reason why everyone cant work together liked civilized people and work something out. If they'd stop bombing and work WITH Israel instead of AGAINST Israel then something good could happen
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Old May 23, 2002, 05:04 PM   #6
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Talking And we're off...........

"Jews were very much insterested in creating a large Arab state without religion behind it. This was all before WW2 and the whole Allies thing ever happened. The Muslim extremists did not want the Jews and started propaganda and violence towards them that eventually led rise to some of Hitler's views....thus stemming WW2."

Interesting. Though I doubt WW2 was caused by Arabs.

"You cant just say all arabs are the same....most are good people. There is only a small percentage leading them that are evil and promote violence. For instance, Palestinians in schools are taught to fight the Jews and their friends wherever they encounter them. On palestinian TV children's shows have songs sung by 10 year old girls about young boys fighting and killing the Jews and dieing valiently in battle, thus going to heaven."

Actually I was saying that cutting the definitions too fine is as bad as lumping them all together. As far as fixing the problem goes, we need to get back to basics: Both the Muslims AND the Jews trace lineage to the same source.

"Israel has offered land to the palesinians as their own to be seperate from Israel. BUT since the land didnt include Jerusalem they deny it."

Of course. If you woke up one day to UN troops telling you to move to the less habitable land in your area so Native Americans could have your condo how would you react? We need 1 nation out of this, 2 will never work.

"True the allies f*cked up big time with the borders, but that doesnt give the palestinians the right to kill people. there is no reason why everyone cant work together liked civilized people and work something out. If they'd stop bombing and work WITH Israel instead of AGAINST Israel then something good could happen."


I heard an interesting observation just after the last Israeli PM was Assasinated: There are no sensible people left in either country, All that's left are extremists on both sides.

True, Palestinians would do better painting the word "lieberstraum" on Israeli settlement buildings than bombing civilians. Neither group is likely to step off long enough for resolution without SERIOUS outside intervention.

No one has ANY right to take another human life. EVER.
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Old May 23, 2002, 05:14 PM   #7
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Re: And we're off...........

Quote:
Originally posted by mischief

Of course. If you woke up one day to UN troops telling you to move to the less habitable land in your area so Native Americans could have your condo how would you react? We need 1 nation out of this, 2 will never work.

Right on. I'm not sure why everyone is buying the line that a two state solution is the only answer. Sure, extremists on both sides are going to always want their own state... but hell, I wouldn't mind having my own state either! We're talking about far too little land with too few resources (real resources, like water, in addition to the religious spots everybody wants) to ever be able to equitably split into two states. The water grid is a HUGE issue that hardly ever gets talked about in the American media; I guess it just complicates things too much. Anyway, right on, mischief, for pointing out the absolute failure of borders drawn by imperialists (hello, Africa?) and for standing up for a one-state solution.

Flame on, everyone else.
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Old May 23, 2002, 05:18 PM   #8
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If you look at a map, the majority of the middle east is controlled by muslims. Only a tiny sliver is Isreal.

So, why do the Palestinians want to be there so bad? Why can't they go a little east?

I'll tell you why. The Isrealis have developed the hell out of that area, and the palestinians want to boot the Jews out and steal what's there.

They hate the jews. Period.

By the way, there is no such thing as Palestine or a Palestinian. The word is derived from the term philistines. Plus, the jews were there long before the muslims. But, even so, none of the muslims cared about or were all that interested in living in what is now Isreal before the end of WWII. It wasn't until the jews moved in and built stuff.
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Old May 23, 2002, 05:20 PM   #9
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a one state solution would be ideal but it wouldnt work out. as you said extremists...

I didnt say arabs started ww2 just that some things they said made it to Europe and then to hitler and he used that....


i think this thread is kind of like the land we're discussing. We'll never get anywhere when people have their minds already made up.
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Old May 23, 2002, 05:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by mcrain
If you look at a map, the majority of the middle east is controlled by muslims. Only a tiny sliver is Isreal.

So, why do the Palestinians want to be there so bad? Why can't they go a little east?

I'll tell you why. The Isrealis have developed the hell out of that area, and the palestinians want to boot the Jews out and steal what's there.

They hate the jews. Period.

By the way, there is no such thing as Palestine or a Palestinian. The word is derived from the term philistines. Plus, the jews were there long before the muslims. But, even so, none of the muslims cared about or were all that interested in living in what is now Isreal before the end of WWII. It wasn't until the jews moved in and built stuff.

that is a VERY good point. And I can't believe I didnt mention that before....

The reason why they want to take Israel's land and not go elsewhere....

BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS THEM. that's right, I said it. they werent incorporated into the other muslim nations because none of the other nations would let them in. The other Muslim nations don't want them in their land and so they're forced to live where they are, which is under Israeli law.

they're all just pissed because they are the white trash of the Middle east.
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Old May 23, 2002, 05:34 PM   #11
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Talking A new angle on the HUGE picture:

Environmentalism:

Current evolutionary theory states that Evolution happens suddenly in reaction to cataclysmic events that effectively "shuffle the deck" moving species around en masse and killing off some in the process. New species then emerge to fill voids. The crux of the process though is the sudden environmental stress and radical environmental change. All of Human history exists in the longest period of environmental stability ever observed on this planet.

In the last millenia Humans have become "half" a Cataclysm. We have been killing off and moving around species..... but too slowly for massive recovery. The Environmentalist stance of attempting to halt environmental change is foolish and counter productive. If we're gonna be a Cataclysm we must take responsability for what that means: we must move species around en masse as fast as we can so evolution can save our butts. We must get over our Egotism around Genetic engineering and "Playing God" and FIX THE SYSTEM.

If The Creator didn't want us t know something WE WOULDN"T KNOW IT.

If said being didn't want us doing something IT WOULDN"T BE POSSIBLE.

It's time to get over the HUGE picture "it" and get on with taking responsability for ourselves.
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Old May 23, 2002, 07:06 PM   #12
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I concur. People dont like to take responsibility for their actions and ignore the consequences. This needs to change.
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Old May 24, 2002, 02:23 AM   #13
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Re: A new angle on the HUGE picture:

Quote:
Originally posted by mischief
Environmentalism:
If The Creator didn't want us t know something WE WOULDN"T KNOW IT.

If said being didn't want us doing something IT WOULDN"T BE POSSIBLE.

It's time to get over the HUGE picture "it" and get on with taking responsability for ourselves.
It won't happen due to the money and politics involved. Any action taken will always be a little too late.

Look at the melting of the icecaps. Its pretty much assured that in the next century enough ice will melt to raise the sea level several feet by 2100. What are we doing? Nada, we have too many other problems (small problems) that need our attention that we're basically doing damage control as the problems arise and not worry about curring the system.

I hope that changes some day.
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Old May 24, 2002, 02:55 AM   #14
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the primary goal of the arabs is for the iradication of all jews

how can you ever have peace if thats thier goal? you cant. not by human standards that is. not EVER through diplomacy.


most top arab leader....arafat the primary one....say one thing to the public then the total opposite to thier people. its called double speak.
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Old May 24, 2002, 03:02 AM   #15
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I was watching a comedy show last night. There was a mock interview with God. He made a joke and the interviewer said she was surprised he made a joke. His reply was something to the effect of "You didn't think I had a sense of humor? Of course I do... I put I ran and Iraq next to each other, didn't I?"

Cracked me up! Not saying what's happening in that part of the world is funny, but that skit cracked me up.
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Old May 24, 2002, 03:09 AM   #16
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heh thats funny beej.
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Old May 24, 2002, 03:22 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by krossfyter
the primary goal of the arabs is for the iradication of all jews

how can you ever have peace if thats thier goal? you cant. not by human standards that is. not EVER through diplomacy.


most top arab leader....arafat the primary one....say one thing to the public then the total opposite to thier people. its called double speak.

so irradicate the arabs!!!1
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Old May 24, 2002, 03:39 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by macfreek57



so irradicate the arabs!!!1

that is genocide and its illegal
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Old May 24, 2002, 07:00 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by krossfyter
the primary goal of the arabs is for the iradication of all jews

Not true. One of the main reasons muslims and jews do not get on is Jerusalem. Have you ever been there? Both religions claim the same site as *their* holy shrine: the Dome of the Rock. It's holy to islam, judaism and christianity. Muslims believe the prophet Muhammed ascended to paridise from there, whilst jews believe Abraham came close to sacrificing his son there (not sure what it is to christians, possibly something to do with Solomon's temple). Access to the site is restricted, with certain days allocated to each religion. Seems like a simple solution, non? Non. One of the principles islamic nations follow is to not allow other religions to prosper within them. How then can muslims allow jews (or christians for that matter) to use one of *their* holiest sites?

Anyway, to get to the point ( ), their goal isn't to eradicate jews, to but gain full and unhindered access to their shrines, and have full control over Jerusalem. If it were christians living there (or hindus...), then it would be the same. It just so happens that in this case Jews are 'in the way'.
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Old May 24, 2002, 07:05 AM   #20
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well from what im hearing it seems that most of them say that to the public ...you know about the dome of the rock issue....shrine..etc.etc. but to thier people or behind close doors they want the extinction of the jews.


now i could be wrong about some or all of this but so far thats what i have come up with.
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Old May 24, 2002, 07:16 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by krossfyter
well from what im hearing it seems that most of them say that to the public ...you know about the dome of the rock issue....shrine..etc.etc. but to thier people or behind close doors they want the extinction of the jews.
Behind closed doors.... well, they *could* be saying anything, including what you're saying. Then again, what's Bush saying 'behind closed doors' about the war america's running in the middle east? Is it really just against the taliban, or does islam come into it?

I'm not suggesting that that's the case, just pointing out that what's said behind closed doors is not always put into action, or even neccessarily meant.

On a personal level, i know many jews and muslims who get on just fine, as long as shrines aren't involved.
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Old May 24, 2002, 07:17 AM   #22
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its more than just a land issue. there is so much involved to narrow it down to only that. the arabs have so much other land they are not even satisfied with it so they just want a strip more? thats not entirely true. i believe they dont want the jews on this earth anymore.
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Old May 24, 2002, 07:21 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by britboy


Behind closed doors.... well, they *could* be saying anything, including what you're saying. Then again, what's Bush saying 'behind closed doors' about the war america's running in the middle east? Is it really just against the taliban, or does islam come into it?

I'm not suggesting that that's the case, just pointing out that what's said behind closed doors is not always put into action, or even neccessarily meant.

On a personal level, i know many jews and muslims who get on just fine, as long as shrines aren't involved.

could be. however i would trust bush more than arafat behind them doors.
bush would never want a certain goup of people destroyed (well maybe the clintons but that another thing ) on the other hand that is a good possiblity with arafat and some of the other arab leaders. it is my understanding that arabs have that dynamic doublespeak nature about them.
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Old May 24, 2002, 07:27 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by krossfyter
its more than just a land issue. there is so much involved to narrow it down to only that. the arabs have so much other land they are not even satisfied with it so they just want a strip more? thats not entirely true. i believe they dont want the jews on this earth anymore.
Land is one of the most important things imaginable to islamic people. Take this for example: saudi arabia has the largest area of land of any country in the middle east. However, every single country that has a border with saudi is in constant conflict (in the political sense) with the saudi's over the precise line that the border follows. You ever noticed that some maps just put borders between saudi and its' neighbours in a dotted line? That's why.
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Old May 24, 2002, 07:34 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by krossfyter
could be. however i would trust bush more than arafat behind them doors.
bush would never want a certain goup of people destroyed (well maybe the clintons but that another thing ) on the other hand that is a good possiblity with arafat and some of the other arab leaders.
To be honest, i wouldn't be so sure. They're both politicians. Just because arafat happens to be from the middle east does not mean he's an untrustworthy fool. In fact, i think he's far more astute than bush.

Quote:
it is my understanding that arabs have that dynamic doublespeak nature about them.
aaahhh, so that's where i get it from
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