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Old May 6, 2009, 12:15 AM   #1
randanza
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The process of animation for game apps.

Okay, so I am extremely new to application creation and I don't know a single person that creates apps, so I have to ask all of you. Basically, my real question is that how are the graphics done? Are they made through other programs such as photoshop and then put into the scripting? I am asking because I myself don't have a mac, so I can't make apps, however, I am mainly a graphics designer and have a hobby of making graphics/characters/backgrounds/etc for games, and I would love to find a partner who can do all the scripting while I come up with all of the graphics, and split payments in half. I have tried to look for this answer everywhere but i cant find anything that really talks about the graphics being put into the apps part. Thanks!
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Old May 6, 2009, 03:28 AM   #2
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...I would love to find a partner who can do all the scripting while I come up with all of the graphics, and split payments in half.
You want to do ONLY the graphics for an application and want to share the profits 50/50? So the partner will (1) have to either have a Mac or purchase one, (2) do the work to enroll in the iPhone developer program, (3) acquire all of the required development certificates, (4) do the game design, and (5) do all of the coding. And you want a 50/50 split? Good luck finding a sucker... erm... partner.
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Old May 6, 2009, 03:33 AM   #3
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lol

first off, i already have all everything and ready to submit. I need a coding partner and IM not looking for someone who is just starting out. ALSO, the point of this has nothing to do with looking for a partner, it has to do with my questions about graphics so if u are going to try to tell me stuff isnt fair, especially when it had nothing to do with my question, feel free to keep it to urself. Oh, and for your info, depending on the person, it would be 50/50. I was just giving it as an example...
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Old May 6, 2009, 11:51 AM   #4
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You want to do ONLY the graphics for an application and want to share the profits 50/50?
I have an app I developed in the store which still hasn't paid back 2X the cost of the graphics design.

YMMV.

My local library has a pile of books on computer game animation.

Start there.

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Old May 6, 2009, 03:35 PM   #5
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?

What is your local library?
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Old May 6, 2009, 03:57 PM   #6
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What is your local library?
I'd guess the books he owns
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Old May 6, 2009, 05:09 PM   #7
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...I need a coding partner and IM not looking for someone who is just starting out.
Exactly my point. You're looking for someone who has already invested a great deal of time and money into the iPhone Developer program, whereas you've invested no time, and you want a 50/50 split.

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ALSO, the point of this has nothing to do with looking for a partner, it has to do with my questions about graphics so if u are going to try to tell me stuff isnt fair, especially when it had nothing to do with my question, feel free to keep it to urself. Oh, and for your info, depending on the person, it would be 50/50.
You were the one who first mentioned the 50/50 split in your OP, not me. I'm simply pointing out that you may be dismayed to find that few talented iPhone developers will give you that split.
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Old May 6, 2009, 05:16 PM   #8
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Games like Super Monkey Ball are done with 3D models.

It depends on the game. A lot of non-3D games are done with images. That's why kalimba was appalled at a fifty/fifty split because coding can take months while images doesn't take as long to make (regardless of whether the person is very very experienced or experienced or intermediate).

But yes, all you're looking at are images (png, gif, jpg...I think it's png) if I'm not mistaken (with some parts drawn by the application itself).
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Old May 6, 2009, 07:33 PM   #9
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again...

Again, the 50 50 split was just an example saying we both get paid. And don't say I haven't put any time in because even though I have never coded an iphone application, I have coded several full programs/games, worked on a couple of Xbox 360 games, and have worked on graphics for 6 movies that were in theaters. I have put a ton of time into perfect my part of what I plan to do. Along with that I plan on making full games with full stories, which I already have written out. In my opinion, coding is easier then graphics, maybe takes a little longer, but graphics and stories are something that take creativity. Coding is just words that you can basically copy and paste. And one more thing, I pointed it out to show people what I am talking about doing, to help them understand my question a little more, so I will say it again, unless you want to help me by answering my question instead of talking out of your rear about stuff you have no idea about, then just keep your mouth shut because NOBODY wants to hear about how you feel 50/50 is unfair.
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Old May 6, 2009, 08:37 PM   #10
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In my opinion, coding is easier then graphics, maybe takes a little longer, but graphics and stories are something that take creativity. Coding is just words that you can basically copy and paste.
And this is where your naivety really shines through. Sure, graphics can be hard too but to summarize coding as just copy-and-paste shows how little about it you really know. Plenty of coding takes A LOT of creativity.
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Old May 6, 2009, 09:28 PM   #11
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In my opinion, coding is easier then graphics, maybe takes a little longer, but graphics and stories are something that take creativity. Coding is just words that you can basically copy and paste.
Okay, a bit of advice. Never ever ever say this to a developer. Software engineering, which is what we're really talking about here, is a complex dance of mental gymnastics, that takes careful planning, design, and intelligent programming to bring a product to life. People go to college for it, and/or spend years learning it. You could program for fifty years, and still not know it all. It is 100% about creativity. I am a software engineer in the day, and make iPhone games at night. Any good software product involves massive amounts of planning and design, and that involves creativity. The coding involves finding solutions to simple and complex problems, all of which involves creativity. At no point in my day am I blindly copy and pasting anything. Heck, out of the 8-12 hours a day that I develop software, only 1-2 hours of it involves typing code.

Both of my games are highly profitable on the App Store, and I did all the design, code, and graphics myself, so I know all sides of the process. The design of my first game took a couple weeks. The coding took several months of evening work. And the graphics took a week. If I were to price out the development time, I'd say it cost about $20,000. If I had outsourced the graphics to an artist, they would've been paid around $1,000. When you say, "coding is just words that you copy and paste," that is equivalent to saying doctoring is just giving pills to patients, after you look up the symptoms in a book. There's a reason most developers make six figure incomes. It's hard, and not a lot of people can do it.

That being said, yes, the graphics are simply referenced from various locations in the code, and can be replaced within seconds with different graphics. Your best bet is to either hire a novice programmer to work with you, as they may be willing to work for profits. If you're looking for an experienced programmer, you're looking at minimum $150 per hour, or 75% of the profits.
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Old May 6, 2009, 09:43 PM   #12
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Dave, of Pocket God fame, is quite verbose about his team's animation techniques. They use Flash to generate the sprites and export them for the app.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=680026

and

http://pocketgod.blogspot.com/
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Old May 6, 2009, 10:50 PM   #13
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LOL I wish most programmers were on 6 figure salaries! The only programmers who make anywhere near 6 figure incomes are those with their own business and they are amongst the minority. Coders are ten to a penny and development houses know that and pay accordingly!

Jesus why jump down his throat so bad? Programming can be hard I agree but its wide open for anyone to learn and doesn't take some kind of elite human being to be able to get a hold of
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Old May 7, 2009, 12:00 AM   #14
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LOL I wish most programmers were on 6 figure salaries! The only programmers who make anywhere near 6 figure incomes are those with their own business and they are amongst the minority. Coders are ten to a penny and development houses know that and pay accordingly!
I suppose different regions have different pay. Most programmers I know makes six figures, or nearly six figures, and all of them work for companies, not themselves. Last time I checked, software engineers average around $50,000 right out of college. I have no idea where these development houses are that pay coders nothing, but I feel sorry for them.

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Jesus why jump down his throat so bad?
Odd, I thought I was being fairly restrained, considering he equated our careers to mere data entry.

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Programming can be hard I agree but its wide open for anyone to learn and doesn't take some kind of elite human being to be able to get a hold of
Oh, I fully agree. Anyone can learn to program. A small portion of them may become good. An even smaller portion will become great. It takes a lot of drive and determination.

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Old May 7, 2009, 12:37 AM   #15
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Again, the 50 50 split was just an example saying we both get paid. And don't say I haven't put any time in because even though I have never coded an iphone application, I have coded several full programs/games, worked on a couple of Xbox 360 games, and have worked on graphics for 6 movies that were in theaters. I have put a ton of time into perfect my part of what I plan to do. Along with that I plan on making full games with full stories, which I already have written out. In my opinion, coding is easier then graphics, maybe takes a little longer, but graphics and stories are something that take creativity. Coding is just words that you can basically copy and paste. And one more thing, I pointed it out to show people what I am talking about doing, to help them understand my question a little more, so I will say it again, unless you want to help me by answering my question instead of talking out of your rear about stuff you have no idea about, then just keep your mouth shut because NOBODY wants to hear about how you feel 50/50 is unfair.
LOL. What a clueless sap. If coding is "just words that you basically copy and paste", then your art is just pixels you've copied and pasted.

Ponder this: As a software engineer, I have the ability to put an application into the App Store. My app may have sloppy "programmer art" that isn't pretty or polished, but I can make it happen. As an artist, you don't have this same power. You can paint all of the pretty pictures you want, but you'll never get an application into the App Store with the skills you have. You'll need an engineer to do it for you. And that, my friend, is the key difference between the power held by a software engineer and that of an artist.

Now you keep your mouth shut, buddy!!! LOL.
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Old May 7, 2009, 01:00 AM   #16
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Hahaha

HAHAHA! you guys make me laugh so much. Coming up with stories, plots, characters, and graphics is far more creative use of the brain then coding. I am not talking about little games that take an hour to make. I Have worked on several full fledge games, including Final Fantasy 12, Castle Crashers, MLB Live 2k6, etc... I have made programs for computers and worked on updating programs such as Open Canvas. I have done far more programming then you guys put together, and more graphical work as well. Coding i text, and it is simple. I wish I had a MAC cause i could bust out games nonstop. Graphics and stories take time to make them the best out there. Not go and copy sprites because that is just stupidly cheesy and people who do that prove that they are skill less. And don't say I put you down, because I have done more of it then you, and because this all started cause some retard who doesn't know what he is talking about tried to put me down. And I would love to see a programmer who is only asked to program take 75% of the profits. Website coders, people who make codes for forums such as these, they get around 3% of the profit made, if that. The designer and graphical designer get paid more then anyone. People who work on professional video games for consoles like PC, Xbox, and PS. The story board and coders get about the same, sometimes it varies a little, and graphics department gets over 60%. So don't try to feed me this BS because I am not going to take crap like that.
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Old May 7, 2009, 01:18 AM   #17
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Coding i[s] text, and it is simple.
This simple statement proves that you don't know what you're talking about. We're not talking about scripting in some premade gaming engine here. We're talking about software development, where you create something from nothing. There is a gigantic difference, and if you knew as much as you say you do, you'd know that.
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Old May 7, 2009, 01:39 AM   #18
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What is your local library?
One city library is a few miles North. Another city library is a few miles South. There's a small county branch library near the office. A huge university library is a couple train stops away.

They all have lots and lots and lots of books on various software topics, mostly free for the reading (as long as you return them in a few weeks). The university library wasn't free, but I knew a student who could scan a couple research journal articles for me.

Read up on Pixar. They hire dozens and dozens of the most talented graphics programmers around.

Yet they emphasize that what makes or breaks a movie is the art and the story. The bigger screen credits go to the artists and art directors.

Last edited by kainjow; May 7, 2009 at 02:43 PM. Reason: merged consecutive posts
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Old May 7, 2009, 02:00 AM   #19
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So don't try to feed me this BS because I am not going to take crap like that.
Wow, you really are endearing yourself around here. Good luck with getting that help.

Oh, and P.S. It really is against the forum rules for you to solicit for developers (please see this sticky from the top of this very forum). So, you might as well stop before you dig your grave any deeper.
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Old May 7, 2009, 02:03 AM   #20
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...I Have worked on several full fledge games, including Final Fantasy 12, Castle Crashers, MLB Live 2k6, etc... I have made programs for computers and worked on updating programs such as Open Canvas. I have done far more programming then (sic) you guys put together, and more graphical work as well. ... I have done more of it then (sic) you...
Ya, right. You've got all of that game development experience -- sure thing. Let's take a look at your first post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by randanza View Post
Okay, so I am extremely new to application creation and I don't know a single person that creates apps, so I have to ask all of you. Basically, my real question is that how are the graphics done? Are they made through other programs such as photoshop and then put into the scripting? I am asking because I myself don't have a mac, so I can't make apps, however, I am mainly a graphics designer and have a hobby of making graphics/characters/backgrounds/etc for games, and I would love to find a partner who can do all the scripting while I come up with all of the graphics, and split payments in half. I have tried to look for this answer everywhere but i cant find anything that really talks about the graphics being put into the apps part. Thanks!
Oh boy, that sure does sound like the voice of experience, asking all those newbie questions!

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...Coding ... is simple. I wish I had a MAC cause i could bust out games nonstop.
Why can't you take all of the money you've made in your "game development career" and just buy a Mac? That's what I did! It'd be a tiny investment towards the stacks of money you'd get in return for all the games you "bust out" into the App Store.

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...And don't say I put you down, because I have done more of it then (sic) you, and because this all started cause some retard who doesn't know what he is talking about tried to put me down...
LOL. This "retard" has been writing game code for nearly three decades and currently works for the #1 game developer/publisher in the world. But you're probably right that I don't what I'm talking about...

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...Website coders, people who make codes for forums such as these, they get around 3% of the profit made, if that. The designer and graphical designer get paid more then (sic) anyone.
Well, in case you haven't been paying attention, the iPhone success stories completely break from any "traditional" pay schemes. Just because there is an established pay scale for certain other types of programming work, doesn't mean those pay scales apply to iPhone development. iPhone engineers are currently in high demand. Art is and will always be a commodity.

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People who work on professional video games for consoles like PC, Xbox, and PS. The story board and coders get about the same, sometimes it varies a little, and graphics department gets over 60%. So don't try to feed me this BS because I am not going to take crap like that.
Now I'm convinced that you have no idea what you're talking about. Professional game development is what I do every day. The coders are the highest-paid developers on the team, not the storyboard artist, not the texture artist, not the UI artist, not the modeler, not the animator, not the level designer. At the end of the day, the engineers get into the BMWs, Lexuses, and Mercedes. The artists drive home in the Hondas and Toyotas. You're lying, you're wrong, and you're full of crap. Buh bye, troll.
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Old May 7, 2009, 02:22 AM   #21
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Read up on Pixar. They hire dozens and dozens of the most talented graphics programmers around.

Yet they emphasize that what makes or breaks a movie is the art and the story. The bigger screen credits go to the artists and art directors.
I don't think anyone is arguing that art and story aren't important. He said programming is trivial. That is false.

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Now I'm convinced that you have no idea what you're talking about. Professional game development is what I do every day. The coders are the highest-paid developers on the team, not the storyboard artist, not the texture artist, not the UI artist, not the modeler, not the animator, not the level designer.
I've worked in desktop application development for ten years, and it's the same story. The programming department is the most expensive part of the company.

Last edited by kainjow; May 7, 2009 at 02:43 PM. Reason: merged consecutive posts
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Old May 7, 2009, 04:57 AM   #22
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I suppose different regions have different pay. Most programmers I know makes six figures, or nearly six figures, and all of them work for companies, not themselves. Last time I checked, software engineers average around $50,000 right out of college. I have no idea where these development houses are that pay coders nothing, but I feel sorry for them.



Odd, I thought I was being fairly restrained, considering he equated our careers to mere data entry.



Oh, I fully agree. Anyone can learn to program. A small portion of them may become good. An even smaller portion will become great. It takes a lot of drive and determination.
I wasn't referring to your post in all of my post delerium it was just general observation, just seemed the OP was doomed from the start! After reading his more recent posts though I'd say he deserved it. Experienced coders here in the UK average a salary of around 30-40k but over here we refer to a six figure salary being 100k+ The competition for programming jobs over here is quite fierce due to an abundance of programmers (The IT industry in general is made out to be a bright and rosy career path and lots of people jump on the bandwagon) and some of the larger companies take full advantage of that by paying less than average salaries and having ridiculous job requirements. I've seen job listings for post grads paying around 13k which isn't even at the threshold to start paying back student loans!
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Old May 7, 2009, 05:10 AM   #23
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I wasn't referring to your post in most of my post delerium, just seemed the OP was doomed from the start! After reading his more recent posts though I say he deserved it. The coders here in the UK average a salary of around 30k but over here we refer to a six figure salary being in the millions! (edited by poster to 100k+)
Euro's to dollars alone, "six figures" in the UK would be a lot more than in the U.S., so let's drop it.

A good game needs good coding AND good graphics. Look at PocketGod, Need for Speed, etc.

Some can squeek by with one or the other, and maybe get lucky and have success. These aren't games, but off the top of my head, for example, in the 'women as sex objects' category, Wobble uses the user's graphics and is primarily code while the various bikini apps are basically slideshows (simple code) but have lots of graphics.

But for best results, you need both. Hmmm, maybe that's the next great app... BikiniWobble!
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Old May 7, 2009, 05:24 AM   #24
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Euro's to dollars alone, "six figures" in the UK would be a lot more than in the U.S., so let's drop it
There's nothing to drop, I was merely justifying what I said and it wasn't in an argumentative tone.
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Old May 7, 2009, 05:29 AM   #25
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There's nothing to drop, I was merely justifying what I said and it wasn't in an argumentative tone.
Sorry, I didn't mean you. Just that we should drop the discussion over "six figures", which you addressed (more so in your edit, after my reply).

Six figures is a loaded term, and based on the local currency could mean rich, poor, or middle class. I make six figures in the U.S., but would not in the U.K., just based on currency, not cost of living or the value of my job in one area or the other. That's all.
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