Indie No Show at iTMS Europe?

MacRumors · Jun 14, 2004, 04:39 PM

MacWorld.co.uk reports that talks between UK Independent labels and Apple may have hit an impasse over the weekend.

As a result the iTunes Music Store for Europe may open without these key artists.

According to MacWorld, the independent artists represnt 25% of music sales in the UK, and 22% across Europe.

Apple is expected to launch iTunes Europe on June 15th.

Mustafa · Jun 14, 2004, 04:46 PM

.......just tell us when it's delivered. These delays and obfuscations are doing nothing for the brand.

JGowan · 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustafa

.......just tell us when it's delivered. These delays and obfuscations are doing nothing for the brand.

One must walk before one runs.

g4cubed · Jun 14, 2004, 05:30 PM

Though having the indies would have been nice, I think the people are just interested in getting it up and running. They'll get on board little by little, just as it did here.

MikeH · Jun 14, 2004, 05:42 PM

For the love of God, what it with these people? Don't they want to get their products to as many people as possible? Are they averse to selling their music? What do they have to lose by being a part of iTunes - surely they can continue to sell via the usual commercial outlets on little shiny disks?

Well, screw 'em. Launch it without them, and if/when it's sucessful they'll change their tune and join up. I know there's a s**t load of hassle negotiating with these things but sometimes I despair...

...on the other hand it could all be just a bunch of fabricated rumors and it'll launch tomorrow indie's and all. Fingers crossed.

leenoble · Jun 14, 2004, 05:54 PM

The phrasing used above points towards it being Apple who have moved the goalposts between deals signed in the US and new deals in the UK...
But I rather suspect it has a little more to do with the fact that ALL record labels have routinely screwed the UK market in particular, and the fact is Apple probably wants the same deal on the table in Europe as they do in the US, it's just the record companies are used to a little more of a margin on European sales so won't sign up to the deal.
As someone mentioned earlier, I guess we'll never find out exactly. And if we don't find out then that must be the reason why - the record companies won't want to look bad by revealing the information since it shows them up to be a bunch of double dealing money grabbing arses.
It's *possible* we might find out from Apple's side of the argument, they have a track record of being indiscreet about these things in the past don't they?
But my bet is we won't hear anything. The indies will hopefully come crawling back when they see the sales they're losing as a result of not being on the number one store.

kenaustus · Jun 14, 2004, 06:02 PM

It's like the old saying about the lottery - you gotta be in it to win it.

Apple's gonna be in it - the question is how long the indies will hold out. I have a feeling that a few will start signing up if they see TMS is generating a lot of business.

pboy · Jun 14, 2004, 04:56 PM

Oh, ****! Apple might lose tons of cred by leaving out the indies. I keep wondering about those "unacceptable terms"...?

Flowbee · Jun 14, 2004, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pboy

Oh, ****! Apple might lose tons of cred by leaving out the indies. I keep wondering about those "unacceptable terms"...?

iTMS launched in the US without indies, too. Within a few months, they started coming on board. As mentioned above, unless another service offers loads of these indie artists, this is a minor set-back. Apple will sort it all out evetually.

DGFan · Jun 14, 2004, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pboy

Oh, ****! Apple might lose tons of cred by leaving out the indies. I keep wondering about those "unacceptable terms"...?

Keep in mind that term was used by the indies. We really have no idea how fair of an offer was made by Apple.

nsb3000 · Jun 14, 2004, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macrumors

MacWorld.co.uk reports that talks between UK Independent labels and Apple may have hit an impasse over the weekend.

As a result the iTunes Music Store for Europe may open without these key artists.

According to MacWorld, the independent artists represnt 25% of music sales in the UK, and 22% across Europe.

Apple is expected to launch iTunes Europe on June 15th.

Apple should be leading the way with getting independents online, not this...

~Shard~ · Jun 14, 2004, 04:55 PM

To me this isn't a big deal - just get the damn thing launched!

Still waiting for iTMS Canada too...

caveman_uk · Jun 14, 2004, 04:56 PM

The indies are very important in the UK and Europe - especially among the young crowd - which I guess are Apple's principal target market. Although a lot of people here buy crap like Dido and Celine Dion, the folks likely to use ITMS are more likely to be interested in stuff on indie labels.

I still think the store should launch anyway but quickly sort out the problems with the indies as a priority.

nagromme · Jun 14, 2004, 05:00 PM

Considering how well-received Apple's standard terms have been among independents in the US, I'm inclined to wonder if maybe Apple's not the problem here. Maybe the independent UK labels really are being unreasonable.

Or maybe Apple is really being unfair in some way. Maybe we'll never know

Hopefully they'll catch on before long.

greg75 · Jun 14, 2004, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nagromme

Considering how well-received Apple's standard terms have been among independents in the US, I'm inclined to wonder if maybe Apple's not the problem here.

Did you bother to read the article?

Quote:

Independent US label Six Degrees – which has experienced "excellent results" on Apple's US Music Store – has declined to sign up for Apple's European service. Sources say this is because the terms on offer from Apple were unaccptable to the company.

While Macworld doesn't possess full details regarding Apple's negotiations with the independent labels yet, it appears the computer company is attempting to implement deals the independents consider to be "commercial suicide" in the offline world.

nagromme · 05:49 PM

I realize terms and pricing have to be different for Europe--NOT necessarily because Apple wants them to be (they may), but because of different laws, taxes, and different companies with different existing deals.

The point is, Apple has been VERY indie-friendly thus far. In the US, Apple has standard terms for all labels, putting indies on an equal footing with big labels. They've been praised for that. In addition, Apple has clearly been willing to accept a very small profit (in fact none, at first) on the iTunes Store. Short-term greed hasn't been their mode of operation so far--they've been more long-sighted, selling iPods, promoting themselves vs. Microsoft, etc.

Now, as I said, we don't know... they MAY have changed tactics and decided to stick it to the independents in Europe (perhaps even bowing to pressure from bigger labels). But that's not the only possibility here, and not a conclusion to just jump to.

In other words, the quote "It appears Apple has presented terms to Europe's independents that are unacceptable to them, and the computer company is not prepared to shift its position" could also be phrased as, "It appears Europe's independents are demanding terms that are unacceptable to Apple, and the independents are not prepared to shift their position." The phrasing in the article was loaded, but in fact, says nothing about one side being the hold-up while the other is willing to deal. BOTH sides are objecting to the others' terms.

Beyond that, we don't have enough details to judge.

And I agree--get it out there, and improve it from there. There's something to be said for Apple's practice of "waiting to get it right," but that need not be taken to the extreme in this case.

iMeowbot · Jun 14, 2004, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greg75

Did you bother to read the article?

It only says that 6 Degrees didn't accept the terms of the Europe deal. That doesn't necessarily mean the the offered terms were unfair, only that the label(s) wanted more.

This is just like when companies and unions get into contract disputes. The spin is always way out of proportion to the actual differences.

musicpyrite · Jun 14, 2004, 05:01 PM

who cares if europe doesnt have inde music, just get itms launched for petes sake!

The next step to world domination!!!

asif3 · Jun 14, 2004, 05:02 PM

this makes me believe even more that apple is gonna surprise us with some super-low pricing and the labels want to milk apple/us for more cash.

come on stevie, surprise us!

kronos2611 · Jun 14, 2004, 05:06 PM

The way things are going it's starting to look like the UK launch of iTMS is too little too late...

I guess we'll see tomorrow though - hopefully the price will be low enough to pull users away from Napster and the rest that seem to have appeared in the last few days (www.sonicselector.com for example). If nothing else though, at least us UK Mac users will finally have a music download service we can use (even if it is missing lots of UK music....)

coolfactor · 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caveman_uk

....buy crap like Dido and Celine Dion,....

We're all entitled to our preferences. Celine Dion happens to be a very good singer, even if she doesn't write all the music herself. I enjoy it.

It may be related to pricing/profit margins. Apple may be trying to keep a consistent, low pricing across the board. I sure hope so.

iTunes is going to rock the world tomorrow!

frem001 · Jun 15, 2004, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caveman_uk

The indies are very important in the UK and Europe - especially among the young crowd - which I guess are Apple's principal target market. Although a lot of people here buy crap like Dido and Celine Dion, the folks likely to use ITMS are more likely to be interested in stuff on indie labels.

I still think the store should launch anyway but quickly sort out the problems with the indies as a priority.

Where the hell is the killers new album hot fuss....grrrrrrr

NoCleverSNForMe · Jun 14, 2004, 05:02 PM

This story is only significant within the context...

Have the other online music stores (i.e. Napster) managed to get these independent labels on their sites?

If it's no, then Apple is going to be great competition.

If it's yes, then Apple will be fighting an uphill battle.

legion · Jun 14, 2004, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoCleverSNForMe

This story is only significant within the context...

Have the other online music stores (i.e. Napster) managed to get these independent labels on their sites?

If it's no, then Apple is going to be great competition.

If it's yes, then Apple will be fighting an uphill battle.

Napster has gotten indies to sign on. So from your statment, it would fall in the latter category.

Stella · Jun 14, 2004, 05:12 PM

**** the indies.. if they can't get into the 21st century, hit them where it hurts - their pockets... get out your favourite P2P apps and download for free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macrumors

MacWorld.co.uk reports that talks between UK Independent labels and Apple may have hit an impasse over the weekend.

As a result the iTunes Music Store for Europe may open without these key artists.

According to MacWorld, the independent artists represnt 25% of music sales in the UK, and 22% across Europe.

Apple is expected to launch iTunes Europe on June 15th.

Jun 14, 2004, 04:39 PM	#1
MacRumors macrumors bot Join Date: Apr 2001	Indie No Show at iTMS Europe? MacWorld.co.uk reports that talks between UK Independent labels and Apple may have hit an impasse over the weekend. As a result the iTunes Music Store for Europe may open without these key artists. According to MacWorld, the independent artists represnt 25% of music sales in the UK, and 22% across Europe. Apple is expected to launch iTunes Europe on June 15th.

Jun 14, 2004, 04:46 PM	#2
Mustafa macrumors regular Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Shenfield, Essex, UK	Like I said....... .......just tell us when it's delivered. These delays and obfuscations are doing nothing for the brand.

Jun 14, 2004, 05:54 PM	#6
leenoble macrumors member Join Date: Jul 2003	The phrasing used above points towards it being Apple who have moved the goalposts between deals signed in the US and new deals in the UK... But I rather suspect it has a little more to do with the fact that ALL record labels have routinely screwed the UK market in particular, and the fact is Apple probably wants the same deal on the table in Europe as they do in the US, it's just the record companies are used to a little more of a margin on European sales so won't sign up to the deal. As someone mentioned earlier, I guess we'll never find out exactly. And if we don't find out then that must be the reason why - the record companies won't want to look bad by revealing the information since it shows them up to be a bunch of double dealing money grabbing arses. It's possible we might find out from Apple's side of the argument, they have a track record of being indiscreet about these things in the past don't they? But my bet is we won't hear anything. The indies will hopefully come crawling back when they see the sales they're losing as a result of not being on the number one store. __________________ ------ And so I said, well I can't remember exactly what I said but it was one of the most enormously cruel and frighteningly witty put downs ever.

Jun 14, 2004, 04:56 PM	#8
pboy macrumors newbie Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sweden	Oh, ****! Apple might lose tons of cred by leaving out the indies. I keep wondering about those "unacceptable terms"...? __________________ http://www.looproom.com

Jun 14, 2004, 04:55 PM	#12
~Shard~ macrumors Demi-God Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: 1123.6536.5321	To me this isn't a big deal - just get the damn thing launched! Still waiting for iTMS Canada too... __________________ My riches consist not in the extent of my possessions, but in the fewness of my wants. - J. Brotherton

Jun 14, 2004, 05:30 PM	#4
g4cubed macrumors 6502a Join Date: Jun 2004	Though having the indies would have been nice, I think the people are just interested in getting it up and running. They'll get on board little by little, just as it did here.

Jun 14, 2004, 05:42 PM	#5
MikeH macrumors regular Join Date: Jan 2002	For the love of God, what it with these people? Don't they want to get their products to as many people as possible? Are they averse to selling their music? What do they have to lose by being a part of iTunes - surely they can continue to sell via the usual commercial outlets on little shiny disks? Well, screw 'em. Launch it without them, and if/when it's sucessful they'll change their tune and join up. I know there's a s**t load of hassle negotiating with these things but sometimes I despair... ...on the other hand it could all be just a bunch of fabricated rumors and it'll launch tomorrow indie's and all. Fingers crossed.

Jun 14, 2004, 06:02 PM	#7
kenaustus macrumors 6502 Join Date: Jun 2003	It's like the old saying about the lottery - you gotta be in it to win it. Apple's gonna be in it - the question is how long the indies will hold out. I have a feeling that a few will start signing up if they see TMS is generating a lot of business.

Jun 14, 2004, 04:56 PM	#13
caveman_uk Guest Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Hitchin, Herts, UK	The indies are very important in the UK and Europe - especially among the young crowd - which I guess are Apple's principal target market. Although a lot of people here buy crap like Dido and Celine Dion, the folks likely to use ITMS are more likely to be interested in stuff on indie labels. I still think the store should launch anyway but quickly sort out the problems with the indies as a priority.

Jun 14, 2004, 05:00 PM	#14
nagromme macrumors 601 Join Date: May 2002 Location: Blinking blue dot	Don't blame Apple yet, they may not be the party at fault Considering how well-received Apple's standard terms have been among independents in the US, I'm inclined to wonder if maybe Apple's not the problem here. Maybe the independent UK labels really are being unreasonable. Or maybe Apple is really being unfair in some way. Maybe we'll never know Hopefully they'll catch on before long. __________________ nagromme Would you like a treatment?

Jun 14, 2004, 05:41 PM	#16
nagromme macrumors 601 Join Date: May 2002 Location: Blinking blue dot	I realize terms and pricing have to be different for Europe--NOT necessarily because Apple wants them to be (they may), but because of different laws, taxes, and different companies with different existing deals. The point is, Apple has been VERY indie-friendly thus far. In the US, Apple has standard terms for all labels, putting indies on an equal footing with big labels. They've been praised for that. In addition, Apple has clearly been willing to accept a very small profit (in fact none, at first) on the iTunes Store. Short-term greed hasn't been their mode of operation so far--they've been more long-sighted, selling iPods, promoting themselves vs. Microsoft, etc. Now, as I said, we don't know... they MAY have changed tactics and decided to stick it to the independents in Europe (perhaps even bowing to pressure from bigger labels). But that's not the only possibility here, and not a conclusion to just jump to. In other words, the quote "It appears Apple has presented terms to Europe's independents that are unacceptable to them, and the computer company is not prepared to shift its position" could also be phrased as, "It appears Europe's independents are demanding terms that are unacceptable to Apple, and the independents are not prepared to shift their position." The phrasing in the article was loaded, but in fact, says nothing about one side being the hold-up while the other is willing to deal. BOTH sides are objecting to the others' terms. Beyond that, we don't have enough details to judge. And I agree--get it out there, and improve it from there. There's something to be said for Apple's practice of "waiting to get it right," but that need not be taken to the extreme in this case. __________________ nagromme Would you like a treatment? Last edited by nagromme : Jun 14, 2004 at 05:49 PM.

Jun 14, 2004, 05:01 PM	#18
musicpyrite macrumors 68000 Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cape Cod	who cares if europe doesnt have inde music, just get itms launched for petes sake! The next step to world domination!!! __________________ For SCIENCE!!

Jun 14, 2004, 05:02 PM	#19
asif3 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: London, UK.	this makes me believe even more that apple is gonna surprise us with some super-low pricing and the labels want to milk apple/us for more cash. come on stevie, surprise us!

Jun 14, 2004, 05:06 PM	#20
kronos2611 macrumors member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Edinburgh - Scotland	The way things are going it's starting to look like the UK launch of iTMS is too little too late... I guess we'll see tomorrow though - hopefully the price will be low enough to pull users away from Napster and the rest that seem to have appeared in the last few days (www.sonicselector.com for example). If nothing else though, at least us UK Mac users will finally have a music download service we can use (even if it is missing lots of UK music....)

Jun 14, 2004, 05:02 PM	#23
NoCleverSNForMe macrumors member Join Date: Jul 2003	The Other Stores... This story is only significant within the context... Have the other online music stores (i.e. Napster) managed to get these independent labels on their sites? If it's no, then Apple is going to be great competition. If it's yes, then Apple will be fighting an uphill battle.

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