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Old Sep 24, 2009, 02:21 PM   #26
frimple
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For the moment I see only two possible options. I got bad CPU from my seller or Apple have enabled the Nehalems only up to W5580 as Tutor used those with success.
Do you have a dual socket 1366 motherboard to test them on? I grabbed one off the 'egg when I got my 2 w5580's to make sure they work.

Have you put the original CPU's back in to make sure it still boots?
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 03:05 PM   #27
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Do you have a dual socket 1366 motherboard to test them on? I grabbed one off the 'egg when I got my 2 w5580's to make sure they work.

Have you put the original CPU's back in to make sure it still boots?
You were getting ahead of me there. Yes, by now I have put the X5520s back in and they boot very quickly. I had also inspected socket B for any damage and found none. I'm glad I made no mistake and my exchange technique is obviously flawless.

My frustration is growing and at the moment I have no clue what to do. I do not have another board to test the CPUs. So I'm still stuck with my two possible causes for the failure to POST. I'm improving my procedures of fitting those heat sinks back on. I can now actually feel when the connector inserts into the oval socket that hooks up all the instrumentation (thermal sensors, fans) with the board. I did not consciously realize that when I was doing it the first time. Probably too much adrenalin.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 03:11 PM   #28
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You were getting ahead of me there. Yes, by now I have put the X5520s back in and they boot very quickly. I had also inspected socket B for any damage and found none. I'm glad I made no mistake and my exchange technique is obviously flawless.

My frustration is growing and at the moment I have no clue what to do. I do not have another board to test the CPUs. So I'm still stuck with my two possible causes for the failure to POST. I'm improving my procedures of fitting those heat sinks back on. I can now actually feel when the connector inserts into the oval socket that hooks up all the instrumentation (thermal sensors, fans) with the board. I did not consciously realize that when I was doing it the first time. Probably too much adrenalin.
Keep us updated.

Once it all works out, I might be interested in those 2 Quads you won't be needing.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 03:12 PM   #29
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You were getting ahead of me there. Yes, by now I have put the X5520s back in and they boot very quickly. I had also inspected socket B for any damage and found none. I'm glad I made no mistake and my exchange technique is obviously flawless.

My frustration is growing and at the moment I have no clue what to do. I do not have another board to test the CPUs. So I'm still stuck with my two possible causes for the failure to POST. I'm improving my procedures of fitting those heat sinks back on. I can now actually feel when the connector inserts into the oval socket that hooks up all the instrumentation (thermal sensors, fans) with the board. I did not consciously realize that when I was doing it the first time. Probably too much adrenalin.
Yep, you're going to need another motherboard with a 1366 socket to test them individually. Hopefully you'll find you just got a bad processor and can return it. It would be terrible to find out that for some reason you can't use 5590's in the mac pro. I can't think of a reason why that would be though.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 03:13 PM   #30
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Keep us updated.

Once it all works out, I might be interested in those 2 Quads you won't be needing.
NP, but for now I'm much in need of good advise what to do in this situation.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 03:19 PM   #31
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The way I see it, until you can test the CPUs you won't know which way to proceed.

If the CPUs test okay, then it is either incompatibility or the fact that the chips are ES. If I was a betting man, I would guess the CPUs do work but because they are ES this is what is causing the failure.

Sorry to hear about your troubles, I really wanted your project to work out for you after all of the problems you've had...

Hang in there, though, I know you'll work out something, it'll just take a little more time and effort...
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 03:28 PM   #32
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It is possible the W5590s require the motherboard firmware to be update to support it; At the time of the Mac Pro's release, the W5580s were an option, so their compatibility was built in. I think the only option you really have is to test the processors in another board since there isn't really another way to test them.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 03:39 PM   #33
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It is possible the W5590s require the motherboard firmware to be update to support it; At the time of the Mac Pro's release, the W5580s were an option, so their compatibility was built in. I think the only option you really have is to test the processors in another board since there isn't really another way to test them.
Haven't there been successful w5590 transplants into quads? Maybe they've just all been i7's...
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 03:54 PM   #34
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... I think the only option you really have is to test the processors in another board since there isn't really another way to test them.
This makes sense to me.

I guess I have one more thing to check before I go into that adventure though. Anand reported that he had to tighten the screws considerably when he did his upgrade.

I may fit the W5590s once more and this time leave out the heat pads. They may be keeping the sensors from making contact in the connectors. Obviously with the lids on the heat sink is located 1,8 mm higher up and the contact overlap of the sensors in those connectors could be marginal. A far cry of a chance but worth trying.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 04:15 PM   #35
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This makes sense to me.

I guess I have one more thing to check before I go into that adventure though. Anand reported that he had to tighten the screws considerably when he did his upgrade.

I may fit the W5590s once more and this time leave out the heat pads. They may be keeping the sensors from making contact in the connectors. Obviously with the lids on the heat sink is located 1,8 mm higher up and the contact overlap of the sensors in those connectors could be marginal. A far cry of a chance but worth trying.
As long as they're seated in there correctly there should be no problem with tightening the crap out of 'em. I think Anand's fried because his was slight off center when he "put the screws to it".
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 04:21 PM   #36
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I may fit the W5590s once more and this time leave out the heat pads. They may be keeping the sensors from making contact in the connectors. Obviously with the lids on the heat sink is located 1,8 mm higher up and the contact overlap of the sensors in those connectors could be marginal. A far cry of a chance but worth trying.
Be careful... I wouldn't hercules them down if I were you...
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 05:26 PM   #37
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It is possible the W5590s require the motherboard firmware to be update to support it; At the time of the Mac Pro's release, the W5580s were an option, so their compatibility was built in. I think the only option you really have is to test the processors in another board since there isn't really another way to test them.
I think this is very possibly the problem.

The W5590 may require different microcode from the W5580 (not uncommon) and if this is true, will require a firmware update with the latest microcode for the new processor for it to be supported.

From what I understand, microcode resides in volatile memory inside the CPU and is loaded by the firmware during POST. I believe that if the checksum's don't match what the CPU expects, it will refuse the microcode and fail to POST. This is why you often see BIOS updates from many board manufacturers like ASUS that simply have change logs along the lines of "Support for new CPU's".
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 06:36 PM   #38
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For the moment I see only two possible options. I got bad CPU from my seller or Apple have enabled the Nehalems only up to W5580 as Tutor used those with success.
Most likely, you need an update to the firmware (microcode), and won't happen. It's possible you got a bad processor, and as mentioned, the only way to be sure is to use a diffent DP 55xx board that does have the firmware to support it.

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It is possible the W5590s require the motherboard firmware to be update to support it; At the time of the Mac Pro's release, the W5580s were an option, so their compatibility was built in. I think the only option you really have is to test the processors in another board since there isn't really another way to test them.
Most likely the situation, and a 3rd party board is needed to verify the CPU as functional.

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I may fit the W5590s once more and this time leave out the heat pads. They may be keeping the sensors from making contact in the connectors. Obviously with the lids on the heat sink is located 1,8 mm higher up and the contact overlap of the sensors in those connectors could be marginal. A far cry of a chance but worth trying.
Please don't do this. You'll end up roasting the VR's if you do.

Test the 5590's on another board first, as it's far more likely a firmware issue.

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From what I understand, microcode resides in volatile memory inside the CPU and is loaded by the firmware during POST. I believe that if the checksum's don't match what the CPU expects, it will refuse the microcode and fail to POST. This is why you often see BIOS updates from many board manufacturers like ASUS that simply have change logs along the lines of "Support for new CPU's".
NVRAM (NAND flash = firmware), but the basic premise is correct.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 06:43 PM   #39
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Those Q1QW ES definitely do not post on the Apple Nehalem system, that is 100% established. I have fitted them every way I could and I did not get them to boot. Every time I fitted the X5520s they did boot, even with very light screw torque down they would post and although sometimes the RAM reported a faulty configuration.

I guess I need to talk to my supplier. It doesn't really matter why they do not post, I simply cannot use them. Effing bad luck.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 06:48 PM   #40
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Those Q1QW ES definitely do not post on the Apple Nehalem system, that is 100% established. I have fitted them every way I could and I did not get them to boot. Every time I fitted the X5520s they did boot, even with very light screw torque down they would post and although sometimes the RAM reported a faulty configuration. I guess I need to talk to my supplier.
I understand that. But to test if it's the part/s in hand, you need another board (non Apple that has the microcode in the firmware).

Perhaps they can test them, but I assume that will require time due to shipping as well as the actual work (assuming they're willing to do so).

Statistically speaking, the missing microcode in the firmware is far more likely the issue (unsolvable) than you got DOA parts.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 06:52 PM   #41
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Statistically speaking, the missing microcode in the firmware is far more likely the issue (unsolvable) than you got DOA parts.

I dunno but I also don't care at the moment. I'll get a very stiff drink and return that Nehalem Mac.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 09:05 PM   #42
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I dunno but I also don't care at the moment. I'll get a very stiff drink and return that Nehalem Mac.
I'll drink to that! If there's a computer part store near you (and not blocked by drunkards in lederhosen ) I'd go pickup a 1366 server board, 1 gig of ram and a PS if you don't have one. Build a test bed and fire those 5590's up one at a time. I sincerely hope that it's not crippled firmware on Apples stand point. Maybe it's just positive thinking, but I'd bet on a bum processor before I would crippled firmware.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 09:12 PM   #43
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Maybe it's just positive thinking, but I'd bet on a bum processor before I would crippled firmware.
Of course this is Apple, crippled firmware always seems to edge out bad HW.

With a PC board, you can always update the firmware to add updated CPUs, with Apple it is a little tougher since they tend not to update firmware on old boards to fix issues with the newer CPUs.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 09:31 PM   #44
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I'm not going into more investment here. Enough is enough. The postmortem to this project is of no interest to me. It would be throwing good money after bad. Those samples don't work. I based my purchasing decision on the gamble that they would work and now I have to admit I was wrong. There is no point in finding out at more cost why it went wrong. I'll get rid of everything and that's the end.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 09:37 PM   #45
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I dunno but I also don't care at the moment. I'll get a very stiff drink and return that Nehalem Mac.
I don't blame you.

I'd also forgotten those are Engineering Sample parts. Sorry about that.

I'm with frimple here, if you're willing to DIY. Or are you looking for a ready made system?

Either way, 3rd party board makers do support the boards longer in terms of firmware.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 09:56 PM   #46
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Nano, you know I got pissed off by my MP1,1 being crippled by Apple's firmware. It is a bloody fast machine at 20.780 Cinebench 10. I was speculating on fixing the EFI issue and getting a rig that would definitely take me beyond 35.000 with decent SSD RAID0. Tutor had a very lucky hand with his rig there and it looked like a good thing to try when I came across those samples at at a nice looking price. I was thinking of selling my existing rig for the price of the new one, which wasn't so unreal, actually. Selling the X5520s would have gone half way for paying for those W5590 samples. So at a very decent investment (obviously keeping my RAID system) I would have gained the fastest "original" Mac on the planet. It was not to be. RIP to a dream!
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 11:23 PM   #47
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Nano, you know I got pissed off by my MP1,1 being crippled by Apple's firmware. It is a bloody fast machine at 20.780 Cinebench 10. I was speculating on fixing the EFI issue and getting a rig that would definitely take me beyond 35.000 with decent SSD RAID0. Tutor had a very lucky hand with his rig there and it looked like a good thing to try when I came across those samples at at a nice looking price. I was thinking of selling my existing rig for the price of the new one, which wasn't so unreal, actually. Selling the X5520s would have gone half way for paying for those W5590 samples. So at a very decent investment (obviously keeping my RAID system) I would have gained the fastest "original" Mac on the planet. It was not to be. RIP to a dream!
Beleive me, I understand.

From what I've been able to gather from your various posts, you've definitely outgrown the '06. Not because it's slow, but the firmware is preventing you from making the necessary upgrades to keep it useful for your needs.

So an upgrade to a newer model makes loads of sense, whether it's an '08 or an '09 with upgraded processors. That one's still possible, but I had forgotten that the CPU's you tried were Engineering Samples. They can make a difference. You could get a pair of new W5590's (or other of your choice) and use those, likely without a single problem. But I'd expect you've had enough of it, and don't want to keep futzing around. Then there's the potential financial issues with returns and whatnot.

So maybe getting a 3.2GHz '08 and selling off the '06 and Engineering Sample chips, and returning the '09. Hopefully, it would be close to balancing out financially speaking, and would eliminate the hassles you've been going through as of late.

Just an idea. Sorry about all the frustration, as I presume you're ready to throw something at a minimum.
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 12:41 AM   #48
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 05:21 AM   #49
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You probably need to remove, i.e., clip away, the upper part or rim of the black connectors that plug into the motherboard connectors at the end of each heat sink. I had to push them out of their compartments before trimming the rim near the cables at the top of each connector. Freeing them from the compartment they're plugged into allows you to gently, manually plug them into the mother board connector completely just as you position each heat sink over the cpu's. Removing the rim prevents cable pinching and allows the connectors to be manually manipulated. After you've removed the rim remember that the black connectors aren't now ( and will never again be) secured to the heat sink ( other than by the tiny cables themselves) the next time you remove the heat sink; thus, you must gently remove the black connectors from the connector port on the mother board, using needle nose pliers, before you get the heat sink to far from home. When those black connectors weren't fully plugged in, mine wouldn't post either. But I figured out the problem - the IHS height difference on the cpu transplant with respect to an 8-core, causes less than a complete connection, evidently triggering a failsafe.
Sounds like a fix to me. My early guess above was that the chips were ES, but if what you say works, would be very cool. Only problem I see is that gugucom would have to take the risk of being unable to return the MP after modding it. If it was me, though, I would go all in.
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 05:23 AM   #50
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Wow, great balls of fire! I'm glad you read this and I learned of the issue. I was in the process of returning everything. Obviously I will make an attempt at this to sort the problem out.

I understand the problem but I'm not yet sure I can reproduce the cure you found. I will have to look at this and carefully read your posting. It is clear now that the fan and temperature connector isn't making a sufficient stroke to connect the contacts. Obviously that prevents the fans from spinning and naturally the processors will not be powered to prevent them from burn out.

I sounds to me that I will have to loosen one side and connect them manually. I will probably understand when I see this. How on earth did you figure this out?

Edit: Once I looked at it closely I understand what you mean. The male connector on the CPU/RAM board remains as it is. The female part is clipped into the casting of the heat sink frame. I managed to unclip it, pry the glued cable loose for some 2 or 3 cm and extract the connector from the casted frame. I also understand what you mean by clipping away the upper rim now.

I made a mounting attempt without CPU in place to see how that closed connector would slide in place when the heat sink comes down to a final position. It did not work properly at all. If a CPU had been in place I would probably have damaged the socket. Holy moley!! I do miss the clamps on that design!

I'm thinking how to do this in such a way that I still have a good leverage for getting the female connector out again. Holy cow!!
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