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Old Aug 3, 2004, 03:30 PM   #1
h4ckintosh
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Unhappy Trouble with my PC freak employer (quit my job?)

I am doing a Web Design job for a small local company, and am on-site for about the next year. I do alot of Photoshop and PHP/MySQL stuff, and am requesting a 2.0GHz G5 with 1GB RAM. The problem is, they say that a Mac is uneconomical, and say that I should use a Dell instead! My project begins in a month, so I was wondering: What could I do to persuade them into making the purchase?

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Old Aug 3, 2004, 03:35 PM   #2
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Ha, if I was employing you (as the owner of a "small local company") to do some web design I'd laugh in your face if you asked for a dual 2 G5 - $$$$$$. sheeesh, you don't want much do you. Either deal with the fact that they will get you a fast Dell, or don't take the job. But I wouldn't even waste my breath trying to change their minds.
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 03:42 PM   #3
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the computer is the only thing...I'm not getting paid (instead of them paying for a guy that works for $50/hour) ...

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Old Aug 3, 2004, 03:46 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h4ckintosh
the computer is the only thing...I'm not getting paid...
ok, that changes things slightly...would have been an idea to mention that small (LARGE!!) fact in the first place...
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 04:03 PM   #5
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If you aren't getting paid, then i wouldn't do the job unless they gave me the computer i wanted. If they give you a dell, it will be very outdated in a year, and it isn't something you want to use anyway.

So is the computer payment for doing the job? If it is and it is going to take a year, then why is the pay so little? $2000, or whatever that coniguration costs doesn't sound like much for what you describe - a 1 year job.
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 04:05 PM   #6
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You're doing on-site work for a year for the price of a G5? Wow, you're cheap! ...or, more likely, this isn't a full-time gig.

Not to be mean, but it seems you'd be better off taking cash, and using it to pay off a G5 that you've bought yourself, rather than dealing with allowing a client to dictate your choice of tools.
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 04:06 PM   #7
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What is the difference in price between the Dell and the PowerMac? Is it closer to $200 or $800?
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 05:23 PM   #8
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Red face

But what should I use to my defense?
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 05:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoid
What is the difference in price between the Dell and the PowerMac? Is it closer to $200 or $800?
exactly, work up a spec comparison. If you get a close number, the economic opposition argument goes out the window.
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 05:35 PM   #10
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what about software?

just a thought - if you already have mac versions of the software you'll need to do the job, this could be a big point. if they want you to have a dell instead, you'd need the pc versions of all that software, which would cost quite a bit, right? total up the cost of new pc software you'd need and add it to the price of the dell in your comparison...

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Old Aug 3, 2004, 05:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoid
What is the difference in price between the Dell and the PowerMac? Is it closer to $200 or $800?
Closer to $800.

Dell 8400
3.4 GHz P4
1 GB DDR2 400MHz
PCI-E 128 MB Radion x300
160 GB SATA
~$1725

Apple
Dual 2 GHz G5
1 GB DDR 400MHz
GeForce FX 5200 64 MB
160 GB SATA
~$2649

I use Photoshop on Windows and Mac, they are just about identical. As far as MySQL/PHP it is available for both. Learn Windows, knowing two OS's will make you more marketable. You won't always be able to choose what you can use at work (unless you are the boss). Look, I love my mac, but, it isn't the end-all of computers. There are somethings Windows does better *gasp* (like the interface is easier to navigate with only the keyboard) and something Mac does better (like its UNIX-like underpinnings).

Computers are just tools. If you only have a hammer, everything begins looking like a nail.
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 05:53 PM   #12
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mac draws less power on a power bill and wont break down so you can work uninterupted.
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 05:55 PM   #13
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Oh man, I know of your pain. My workplace uses Unix with Windows 98 on gateway pentium 2's. You want to talk about a disaster. We have a small business and the Panther would be perfect to use with our unix system. But my boss is a windows geek. We have a eMac just sitting in our garage left over from a contest no one claimed. It has been back there about a year now, in the box. It will probably sit there forever. In the meantime we use unix with some crude of an emulator on Windows. It stinks. Mei, I think it is called. Damn them all to hell.
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 05:56 PM   #14
Mord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smllpx
(like the interface is easier to navigate with only the keyboard) and something Mac does better (like its UNIX-like underpinnings).
thats strange i'm quite happy useing my mac with my keyboard. there are a few differences in the keyboard short cuts and settings have to be changed but it's perfectly fine.
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 05:58 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Coca-Cola
We have a eMac just sitting in our garage left over from a contest no one claimed. It has been back there about a year now, in the box. It will probably sit there forever.
Any way to claim the winning ticket for that contest? I'd love to help reduce the amount of junk in the garage and would happily pay shipping!
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 06:04 PM   #16
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why do you say the mac draws less power, i would image the PC would since it only has one processor not 2 like the powermac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hector
mac draws less power on a power bill and wont break down so you can work uninterupted.
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 06:14 PM   #17
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I put a ticket in that contest for the garaged eMac. I am afraid to ask for the machine. I bet I could get it for a steal, but I know I will be extremely pissed if my boss says anything negative about Macs. He sucks. I know he will call it a toy or something, Are you sure you want that? It's only 1ghz? God, I really hate that guy. I won't be able to contain my rage. Tobe
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 06:17 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by thehuncamunca
why do you say the mac draws less power, i would image the PC would since it only has one processor not 2 like the powermac
a p4 prescott draws well over 100w a 970fx g5 draws 20-25w (at 2.0GHz)

so you could run a quad g5 at the same power level as one p4
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 06:21 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Coca-Cola
I put a ticket in that contest for the garaged eMac. I am afraid to ask for the machine. I bet I could get it for a steal, but I know I will be extremely pissed if my boss says anything negative about Macs. He sucks. I know he will call it a toy or something, Are you sure you want that? It's only 1ghz? God, I really hate that guy. I won't be able to contain my rage. Tobe
Hmmm. Five minutes of contained rage might yield a free eMac. Sounds like you'd come out ahead... Let him think of it as a toy - who cares?

But, if you don't want to ask him, PM me w/his phone number/email. I'll say an anonymous source said it was there and I'll take it off his hands....
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 06:25 PM   #20
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No kidding, I know somebody who could use a good emac. Or even a bad one.
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 06:46 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h4ckintosh
the computer is the only thing...I'm not getting paid (instead of them paying for a guy that works for $50/hour) ...
I sure hope this will be work done from home, instead of "at the office"

If it WERE at their office, it would probably be against the labor law in the state they are trying to do this.

Working a year with no pay, for the "hope" of a year-end bonus that they are depreciating on the books for the entire year.

Most state’s require minimum payment of "minimum wage" for any peon employee unless they are top management. Plus you'd need the cash to offset the tax impact of the machine (ie, increased withholdings.)

If the company goes under or has creditor problems during the year, you won't get paid.

Unless the company legally transfers the computer to you at the beginning of the job -- via written contract (without anything transferring complete and total ownership in writing, it belongs company to any smart creditor.)

Or worse yet they can fire you and keep the machine for any number of reasons.

If the computer is the only payment, it shouldn't be, for labor law and tax purposes, you should be negotiating the equipment you want and only the equipment you want -- if you don't get it, don't do the job.

---

The tax situation is, there are no withholdings on this type of payment. And the IRS is quite picky about both parties paying tax on this expensive of a gift/bonus/payement.

Heck they don't like $5 gift certificates to employees being handed out without taxes due.

Of course they wouldn't likely tax a $5 USB mouse, since it is of nominal value and not cash equivalent.
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Old Aug 3, 2004, 07:25 PM   #22
unixkid
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this is an equal system setup! not the P4 vs Dual G5.


3DBOXX 8212: $5,971.00

Dual Intel Xeon Processors up to 3.60GHz with 800MHz system bus
1GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x512
250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
(8) DIMM Slots
(1) 8x AGP Slot
(3) PCI-X Slots
(1) PCI Slot
(2) Gigabit Ethernet ports
(6) USB 2.0 Ports:
(3) IEEE1394 Ports
(2) 5.25" Exposed Drive Bays



PowerMac G5: $2,799.00

Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5 Dual 1ghz system bus
1GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x512
250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
(8) DIMM Slots
(1) 8x AGP Slot
(3) PCI-X Slots
(1) Gigabit Ethernet ports
(5) USB 2.0 Ports:
(3) IEEE1394 Ports
(1) 5.25" Exposed Drive Bays

Keep in mind that the G5 is 60% faster than the Xeon in Photoshop and 46% cheaper! You will save $3200! with that much saved plus time saved u could go out and buy an even better PowerMac and have 2 or go get a couple of those GORGEOUS cinema displays for more desktop space for Photoshop and have PERFECT color.

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Old Aug 3, 2004, 07:46 PM   #23
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Pointless Mac vs. PC arguments aside, there's not much to tell you other than saying "I get a computer I want to work on, or you get somebody else to do the job." That's certainly what I'd say, particularly if I wasn't getting paid properly for the work. Sounds like maybe this is an internship of some sort (I hope so, if it's unpaid work)? If so, that's about all you can really do.

If you do want to try to make an argument, there's only three that might get you anywhere:

1) Spec out a Dell that costs the same or a bit more than the G5 (not hard, obviously; doesn't matter if it's quite equivalent or not, or if there are cheaper options available). Then tell the boss-type that this is the Dell you'd need to do your work, but the G5 is cheaper and you'd be more productive and happier on it.

2) Settle for a much cheaper Mac--an eMac or laptop--that's in the same price range as the Dell in question.

3) Tell him you'll work much more efficiently on the Mac (which I certainly hope is true, or you SHOULD be getting a Dell... er, let's say IBM), and it has the tools that you'll need to get your job done effectively. I'm assuming this is the truth

There is actually a huge 4th argument, and that would be VirtualPC, but that won't run on the G5 you want untill MS can get VPC7 out the door this fall. The advantage of VPC is you can have multiple versions of Windows running simultaneously, each with a different configuration (most importantly IE5 on one and IE6 on another), in addition to Mac-native versions of Opera, Mozilla, and Safari. This lets you test markup on a complete range of browsers without having to install multiple OSes on the Windows machine you'd be working on, and having to bother with restarts every time you wanted to test someting.

If the project is long enough, then maybe that'll still be a good enough argument (by the time it ships in the Fall, you'll be ready to use it), but that's assuming that MS actually meets a constantly-slipping ship date.
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Old Aug 4, 2004, 10:28 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Hector
thats strange i'm quite happy useing my mac with my keyboard. there are a few differences in the keyboard short cuts and settings have to be changed but it's perfectly fine.
I said Windows does it better, not that it can't be done on the Mac. The Alt key on a windows box is very helpful and there isn't something as useful on the Mac. I was just illustrating a point that there isn't a perfect computer system, not slamming the Mac.

Also, the reason I speced out a P4 instead of a Xeon is because web design photoshop doesn't require any heavy lifting and is probably what his employer is looking at.

unixkid, why did you spec out a 3DBOXX when you know they are going Dell? I just speced out a dual Xeon 3 GHz system for $2700 (ok minus 2 DIMM slots, a few PCI-X, but really how many PCI-X slots do you need?).

Makosuke makes some good arguments about testing on multiple platforms. Too bad VPC7 isn't out for the G5 yet because that could be a slam dunk.

There really is not good reason, I have seen, that you need a dual G5. Like Makosuke said, why not a laptop or and eMac?

Look all I am saying is that quiting over what platform you use isn't a good idea. (not even getting into the whole not paid thing) Unless you are the boss or are hired to make the technology choices you will have to work with the tools they give you.

One more thing the 970fx uses 50 watts (the 970 used 66). <- from: http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/...17093607.shtml

further disclosure: I own a Powerbook, a Windows workstation, a few x86 Linux servers and at work I use a Powermac, a Windows 2003 Server, a Windows Workstation. In the past I have built and administered IRIX, Solaris, and HP-UX servers (not workstations) My only point is that I am not here to bash any OS or platform and when you have worked on enough different ones you find they can all suck in someway or another. especially HP-UX.
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Old Aug 4, 2004, 10:46 AM   #25
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Smile

well, I thank you all for the information thus far. Here are my comparisons from various PC vendors, spec wise, as close as I could get them to the G5's.
I also forgot to mention, I am working as an intern.

Dell - XPS
$3,048
Single Pentium 4 processor at 3.4 GHz clock speed
160GB HDD
1GB RAM

Compaq - GX500T
$2,614
Single Pentium 4 processor at 3.4 GHz clock speed
160GB HDD
1GB RAM

Gateway - 700GX
$3,399
Single Pentium 4 processor at 3.4 GHz clock speed
160GB HDD
1GB RAM

Alienware - MJ-12 X2
$4,534
Dual Xeon processors at 3.6GHz clock speed
160GB HDD
1GB RAM

They were our variables, now heres the control...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Apple - Dual 2.0GHz G5 (refurbed and w/ RAM upgrade)
$2,149
Dual G5 processors at 2.0GHz clock speed
160GB HDD
1GB RAM
------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by h4ckintosh; Aug 4, 2004 at 06:30 PM.
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