Kyle Reese - I think I understand you....maybe

It's a waste of time to try and figure out time travel because of all the natural contradictions. I think I read a theory once that stated that if a person travelled in time and altered past events, that instantly a new, parallel universe is created to accommodate this new stream of history. The old, unchanged, universe would still exist but the time traveler would be forever trapped in the new version.

I just leave it at that when I watch terminator movies. Here's to hoping someone makes a decent terminator movie soon--the franchise has so much unmet potential.

Trying to understand time travel movies is like drinking an icee as fast as you can, in other words, brain freeze headache here I come. It's called suspension of disbelief for a reason.

The Terminator time travels are not that difficult to get. I mean, Kyle Reese went back in time to make John Connor. Without whom humanity would be doomed.

If Kyle Reese dies before impregnating Sarah Connor, then the future is altered and since there is no John Connor, the Resistance fails and humanity dies. Same goes for before Judgement Day John Connor.

In the first movie, the terminator was not after Reese. It was after Sarah. His prime directive was to locate and terminate Sarah Connor. Parenting 101, one of the parents dead = John Connor never being born. It however, failed and thus we get Terminator 2, 3 and 4.

As for John Connor's unborn baby, he does led humanity to salvation after John Connor is killed. Remember, John Connor is killed by T-800 due to his attachment with the model number when young. Right now, Connor is still much alive.

jav6454 said:

The Terminator time travels are not that difficult to get.

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Your plot analysis is oversimplified. The terminator story breaks down in terms of the logical flow of the space time continuum.

Did the machines know Reese was Connor's father? Seems like, given you're fighting an army of time-travelling machines, it's the sort of information you're likely to keep secret for exactly that reason, particularly if you're Sarah Connor.

I mean, it seems likely the first Terminator arrived, checked the date, compared with the intelligence on Connor and "holy crap" scrolled across his field of vision, but then he was crushed in an industrial press. Young Connor told the second Arnold about his father, but then that one got slagged.

Whether it makes sense from that perspective depends a lot on what writers of later installments thought about before writing. It seems very likely that Summer Glau knows all sorts of things that screw up the internal logic of the movies (you know, the good ones) pretty bad.

mscriv said:

Your plot analysis is oversimplified. The terminator story breaks down in terms of the logical flow of the space time continuum.

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How would you say it then. It may be oversimplified, but it has the whole idea. Terminator tries to kill John Connor 3 times and fails.

Also, Skynet does know about Kyle Reese. Remember that in T-4 Skynet places a higher kill status on Reese than on Connor.

jav6454 said:

Also, Skynet does know about Kyle Reese. Remember that in T-4 Skynet places a higher kill status on Reese than on Connor.

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Hence my caveat about the good movies.

OK, two glaring errors that are apparent in the first two movies.

1. Skynet sends back a Terminator to kill Sarah Conner so that John Conner will never be born because he is the leader of the resistance. This puts forth the scenario that John Conner exists prior to the need for a kill mission. In the future, John Conner sends Kyle Reece back to protect Sarh Conner when he learns that Skynet is trying to kill her. This fails the time space continuum natural flow. If John Conner existed prior to the need for Kyle Reece to be sent back then how could Kyle Reece be his father? The only way this works out is if you put forth the arugment that originally Kyle Reece was not John Conner's father, but when time was altered by the plot the first movie a new dimension was created in which Kyle Reece was now John Conner's father.

2. The same argument as above, but the details are different. In the second movie they reveal that the scientist/engineer who created Skynet was able to do so because of his exposure to the advanced technology from the terminator that was destroyed in the first movie. He researched the arm and chip (I think those are the right parts) that were recovered. This again fails the space time continuum. If this technology was needed in order for Skynet to be created then how was it created in the first place? It had to be created according to the original unaltered flow of time in order for it to be able to send the terminator back in the first place. That's like saying you can go back in time and become your own biologicla parent, it's impossible.

By no means does this deconstruction lessen my enjoyment of the films, like I posted above it requires suspension of disbelief.

Well, yeah, but now you're just into normal time-travel-movie weirdness, not fridge logic.

As far as the possibility of you being your own parent ("oh, look, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-my-own-grandpa."), I dunno. I'm no physicist, but those guys like to talk about things like "closed timelike curves" that sound an awful lot like exactly that sort of thing.

mscriv said:

OK, two glaring errors that are apparent in the first two movies.

1. Skynet sends back a Terminator to kill Sarah Conner so that John Conner will never be born because he is the leader of the resistance. This puts forth the scenario that John Conner exists prior to the need for a kill mission. In the future, John Conner sends Kyle Reece back to protect Sarh Conner when he learns that Skynet is trying to kill her. This fails the time space continuum natural flow. If John Conner existed prior to the need for Kyle Reece to be sent back then how could Kyle Reece be his father? The only way this works out is if you put forth the arugment that originally Kyle Reece was not John Conner's father, but when time was altered by the plot the first movie a new dimension was created in which Kyle Reece was now John Conner's father.

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In the time frame, assume John Connor had no knowledge of who was his father and thus Reese was selected randomly. However, One can also argue Connor knows that Reese needs to be sent back since at the end of T-1 we see Sarah Connor talking over the tapes and letting Connor know who his father is. In fact, Sarah speaks on the feelings Connor will have telling him would he have a much easier time sending him, knowing Reese is his father.

mscriv said:

2. The same argument as above, but the details are different. In the second movie they reveal that the scientist/engineer who created Skynet was able to do so because of his exposure to the advanced technology from the terminator that was destroyed in the first movie. He researched the arm and chip (I think those are the right parts) that were recovered. This again fails the space time continuum. If this technology was needed in order for Skynet to be created then how was it created in the first place? It had to be created according to the original unaltered flow of time in order for it to be able to send the terminator back in the first place. That's like saying you can go back in time and become your own biologicla parent, it's impossible.

By no means does this deconstruction lessen my enjoyment of the films, like I posted above it requires suspension of disbelief.

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Well, in the first movie, Skynet was born out of AI engineering and military funding. However, the effects of T-1 changed the timelines. In T-2 Skynet is created from the research on the T-800's (from T-1) arm and CPU. However, after Cyberdine's destruction they go bankrupt (all research of the chip is lost and thus can't produce a profit from the chip) and Skynet's creation is once again shifted to someone else, this time Skynet becomes a network developed under Gen Brewster for web protection. In T-3 Skynet was a system to help control military equipment and maintain the web's security by keep viruses on check. Skynet however was still loyal to humans. What prompted it to turn on humanity was that Skynet went out of its programming invading other networks (we see TV stations, cellphone networks, bar code scanners failing). The military took it as a hostil threat by some nation or super virus. They acted on by sending Skynet to kill it; however, Skynet was the reason for all of this, thus humans order Skynet to basically self destroy itself. In response we get Judgement Day. Skynet's AI determines to self preserve itself and kill any threat to it's existence which unluckily turns out to be humans (the ones that ordered it to self destruct).

jav6454 said:

In the time frame, assume John Connor had no knowledge of who was his father and thus Reese was selected randomly. However, One can also argue Connor knows that Reese needs to be sent back since at the end of T-1 we see Sarah Connor talking over the tapes and letting Connor know who his father is. In fact, Sarah speaks on the feelings Connor will have telling him would he have a much easier time sending him, knowing Reese is his father.

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What??? I fail to see how his knowledge of whether he should send Kyle back or not is important in the original timeline which puts forth that John Conner existed prior to the need for Kyle Reece to be sent back. In the original story John Conner existed without the need for time travel intervention. Yet they postulate that the time travel intervention is how he was conceived and born. That doesn't work. As others have pointed out this is the typical break down in all time travel stories.

jav6454 said:

Well, in the first movie, Skynet was born out of AI engineering and military funding. However, the effects of T-1 changed the timelines. In T-2 Skynet is created from the research on the T-800's (from T-1) arm and CPU. However, after Cyberdine's destruction they go bankrupt (all research of the chip is lost and thus can't produce a profit from the chip) and Skynet's creation is once again shifted to someone else, this time Skynet becomes a network developed under Gen Brewster for web protection. In T-3 Skynet was a system to help control military equipment and maintain the web's security by keep viruses on check. Skynet however was still loyal to humans. What prompted it to turn on humanity was that Skynet went out of its programming invading other networks (we see TV stations, cellphone networks, bar code scanners failing). The military took it as a hostil threat by some nation or super virus. They acted on by sending Skynet to kill it; however, Skynet was the reason for all of this, thus humans order Skynet to basically self destroy itself. In response we get Judgement Day. Skynet's AI determines to self preserve itself and kill any threat to it's existence which unluckily turns out to be humans (the ones that ordered it to self destruct).

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What was it I said again about "brain freeze". Seriously, your explanations are making my head hurt and still don't answer the questions I've put forth. First Skynet was made by this person, but then Skynet was made by this person, oh and after this it changed yet again with the same outcome.

I think this is why lots of time travel movies postulate the destiny theory that no matter what you do to alter time it comes out the same anyway. Then you at least accept from the beginning that changes don't have an impact. As I understand it the Terminator series doesn't take this stance but still holds to the old "we can change the future by changing the past" theory.

I have always thought that the Terminator movies basically go off the concept of "destiny", i.e. certain things are going to happen no matter who or what tries to change them. Such as the existence/creation of Skynet. As jav6454 stated above, the reason for the creation of Skynet changed throughout the series, but the end result was that Skynet was always going to be created, regardless of what humans did to try and stop it. In fact, the whole reason humans first had the tech to develop Skynet in the first place was because of the first terminator sent back in the first movie. (his arm/chip was kept and reverse engineered to develop the tech that created Skynet). Then, when this was destroyed in the end of the 2nd movie, a new reason/creation of Skynet was formed for the 3rd movie. In fact, if I remember correctly, when John Connor is in the bunker at the end of the 3rd movie, he states that he realizes "he was never supposed to stop it/couldn't stop it" (paraphrasing here). So to me, that shows that Skynet was always going to be created, and all humans could really do is alter the events that lead up to it, but not actually prevent it from happening.

chris975d said:

I have always thought that the Terminator movies basically go off the concept of "destiny", i.e. certain things are going to happen no matter who or what tries to change them. .... (snipped as not to repeat)

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I see what your saying, but if that's true then why isn't "what's good for the goose, good for the gander"? You could say that if Skynet succeeds in killing John Conner then someone else will just step up to become the leader of the resistance and ultimately stop the machines. If the resistance is destined to win then no amount of interference or meddling in the past by Skynet will be able to stop it. Of course we both know this doesn't make for good movies, but it would at least preserve the underlying theory throughout the plot.

mscriv said:

I see what your saying, but if that's true then why isn't "what's good for the goose, good for the gander"? You could say that if Skynet succeeds in killing John Conner then someone else will just step up to become the leader of the resistance and ultimately stop the machines. If the resistance is destined to win then no amount of interference or meddling in the past by Skynet will be able to stop it. Of course we both know this doesn't make for good movies, but it would at least preserve the underlying theory throughout the plot.

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Is the resistance "supposed" to win though? I've never actually seen where this is spelled out? Or is the "destiny" supposed to be humans and machines fighting indefinitely? Or possibly eventually realizing it's futile, and finding some way to live in harmony? Because with all the movies, it seems that all that really occurs is that machines/humans keep the other "in check" (to me, at least). Where is "the end of the war" stated/described? Maybe John Connor isn't as important in this whole thing as it appears, maybe it's just told from his and his family's point of view. Maybe the role the Connors play in this is just that they are the conduit by which the humans become "aware" of the future threat. The machines "discover" that it's the Connors who learn of the plan, and they, like the humans, think they can change the future (humans fighting them) by going back in time and keeping the leader of the resistance from being born. When in reality they (the machines) can't change future events any more than humans can. It's just the "awareness" of the humans (in this case, the Connors) that keeps humans alive against the initial revolt of the machines. Maybe anyone could have filled this role, it's just that the story (i.e., the movies) are told from the Connor's POV, and shows their individual family's determination and resilience.
To sum it up, I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying that ultimately the outcomes might not be able to be changed from either side, and maybe the Connors were just an interesting POV to tell it from. Maybe any family could have filled this role, and would have if an event had lead to Sarah, Kyle, or John's death. The actual "thing" that survived the movies was mankind's (actually a few select individuals) "awareness" of the threat that they (mankind) was creating for themselves.

chris975d said:

Is the resistance "supposed" to win though? I've never actually seen where this is spelled out?

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In T-1 Kyle Reese expressly tells the story that it was John Connor that leds the human race to victory (they had destroyed Skynet's entire defense network and all that was left were a couple of Centers that were no more of a threat; however, that wasn't the story since these sent out the terminator)

Skip T-2

In T-3, The T-800 tells both John and Kate that due to the timeline changes John dies and it is his son that leds them to final victory.

I find the best way to deal with this sort of time-based tomfoolery is just to nod sagely and say' 'Time is in flux'. It works for me.

jav6454 said:

In T-1 Kyle Reese expressly tells the story that it was John Connor that leds the human race to victory (they had destroyed Skynet's entire defense network and all that was left were a couple of Centers that were no more of a threat; however, that wasn't the story since these sent out the terminator)

Skip T-2

In T-3, The T-800 tells both John and Kate that due to the timeline changes John dies and it is his son that leds them to final victory.

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Thanks for the refresher. It's been a long time since I've seen the first 3 movies. Speaking of the 3rd movie where the T-800 tells John that altered events lead to John's death, couldn't this of course be altered again, such as the end of Salvation where it looks like John is going to die, but receives the heart donated from Marcus? I guess this is up to the writers though. Before the T-800 tells John of this altered timeline, he has no knowledge of the new events. But after being told, he now knows to be untrusting of a T-800 in the future. And may be the reason he's so untrusting of Marcus once he learns that he is in fact part machine.

chris975d said:

Thanks for the refresher. It's been a long time since I've seen the first 3 movies. Speaking of the 3rd movie where the T-800 tells John that altered events lead to John's death, couldn't this of course be altered again, such as the end of Salvation where it looks like John is going to die, but receives the heart donated from Marcus? I guess this is up to the writers though. Before the T-800 tells John of this altered timeline, he has no knowledge of the new events. But after being told, he now knows to be untrusting of a T-800 in the future. And may be the reason he's so untrusting of Marcus once he learns that he is in fact part machine.

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You see, Marcus was not a T-800, he was, to put in simple terms, an Android. So in a sense, John Connor is still in danger of a terminator.

jav6454 said:

You see, Marcus was not a T-800, he was, to put in simple terms, an Android. So in a sense, John Connor is still in danger of a terminator.

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I know Marcus wasn't a T-800, I'm just saying that it's obvious that, since in the 3rd movie, John was told by that T-800 that events had changed and the machines used a T-800 to kill him in the future because of John's connection to them from his childhood, John now knows of this, and it may prevent it from happening "in the future". Before John was told of this, he was not aware that a T-800 would be used to kill him. Since being told of this in the 3rd movie, he knows to be leery of a machine(like he is with Marcus), and he obviously knows what a T-800 looks like, since apparently they all look like "Arnold" (all the ones in movies so far have, and even the one in Salvation used his likeness). Maybe the ending of Salvation was this event changing again, as John is about to die, but gets a last second heart donation. It's obvious that his wife is pregnant throughout the Salvation movie, presumably with his son that has been mentioned before (that would go on to lead the resistance if John had died at the end of Salvation), so maybe this is yet another timeline change they worked into the movie?