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Old Jan 20, 2010, 09:54 PM   #1
Nostromo
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Blender vs Cinema 4D vs 3 ds max vs maya

I'm interested in getting to learn 3 D software.

Use: for images in Photoshop and in video.


Blender 2.5 Alpha 0 is free. I wonder if this is the best place to start. I heard it is awkward to use, and documentation to learn is isn't that great. (if it's anywhere near what Gimp is to Photoshop,.... that would be bad).


Cinema 4D has a smaller ($1000) entry level package that can be enhanced by buying more add-ons later. I heard it has the most intuitive interface and its body paint feature for applying detail is very good.


3ds Max is so expensive *$3500), but has the largest online community. I don't know of smaller, less pricey entry level packages.

Maya, also from Autodesk: I guess it's rather for animation, and 3DS max for creating virtual worlds, architecture, etc... but I may be wrong.


What's the best place to start? And with which software?
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 01:28 AM   #2
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If I remember correctly, Blender 2.5 was supposed to begin to address the issues of 'ease of use' and add a whole new GUI and range of features. So anything you've heard about Blender probably won't be as relevant anymore until version 2.5 comes to a more stable release. And besides it's completely free, why not give it a shot.

I use Cinema 4D, and have found the stability to be very good on the Mac. It is geared more towards motion graphics, with the MoGraph module and strong integration with Photoshop and After Effects.

3DS Max is windows only, and I personally have never used it.

Maya, from what I've heard, doesn't run that well on the Mac (but is promised to in the next version). I would say Maya's interface/workflow would be a little less intuitive than Cinema 4D, but it is widely regarded as more flexible and the 'industry standard'

I still think the best way for users to decide which package they want is to download the demo versions and watch a few tutorials.
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 01:40 AM   #3
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Thanks, samwich.


How different are these packages of software?

So, if I started on Blender, would it be easy to switch to Cinema 4d later?

I just remember GIMP, that free Photoshop. If one wanted to learn Photoshop, gimp would be a pointless detour.
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 08:16 AM   #4
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Which software?

Many of the concepts that you will learn will help in all packages, but most have their own unique way of doing things.

I have used Cinema 4d quite a bit and it has a nice fast render engine and is pretty versatile.

If you're interested in a really good modeling package, check out modo at www.luxology.com

Cheers,

Mark
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 08:47 AM   #5
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I use Cinema 4D a bit - if you buy the basic software you will really need the advanced render module as well so you need to budget for that. Can't really comment on the other packages other than to say I tried Blender a few years ago and didn't really click with it for some reason. Probably just me...

I like Cinema though - using it gives me that 'wow' feeling I used to get in the early 90's when a new version of Photoshop or Illustrator came out. Not a lot of software manages to evoke that anymore...
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 05:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbestel View Post
Many of the concepts that you will learn will help in all packages, but most have their own unique way of doing things.

I have used Cinema 4d quite a bit and it has a nice fast render engine and is pretty versatile.

If you're interested in a really good modeling package, check out modo at www.luxology.com

Cheers,

Mark
I have never heard of MODO, the software you linked to.

Is this a complete package, similar to Cinema 4D, only that you pay $1000 instead of $3500?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy h View Post
I use Cinema 4D a bit - if you buy the basic software you will really need the advanced render module as well so you need to budget for that. Can't really comment on the other packages other than to say I tried Blender a few years ago and didn't really click with it for some reason. Probably just me...

I like Cinema though - using it gives me that 'wow' feeling I used to get in the early 90's when a new version of Photoshop or Illustrator came out. Not a lot of software manages to evoke that anymore...
Today I looked into this book by Ann Powers/Focal Press on Cinema 4D.

http://www.amazon.com/Cinema-4D-Arti...4113493&sr=1-1

This book really makes you curious to learn this software. It's very appetizing to one's creativity.

Where would you say are the biggest differences between Cinema 4D and 3 ds max?


In regards to Blender: Version 2.5 aims to make it more intuitive. I may start with Blender, so I can check out trial versions of the Cinema 4d and 3ds max and see what fits me better.

It's really a great tool to have in addition to Photoshop.

Too bad it's so pricey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samwich View Post
It is geared more towards motion graphics, with the MoGraph module and strong integration with Photoshop and After Effects.
The strong integration into Photoshop is one plus point in regards to Cinema 4d.

3ds max has it, too. If you look at issues of "Advanced Photoshop", many people use it in combination with 3ds max.

Should work well with final cut pro, too, I guess.

Last edited by Mitthrawnuruodo; Jan 21, 2010 at 05:52 PM. Reason: Merging, please use MULTIQUOTE to answer more than one post...
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 05:56 PM   #7
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i've run maya on a mac for quite some time, and put it through every type of animation / modeling / renders. Comparing it to running on Windows, it wasn't as snappy moving around the interface, but the rendering was just as fast. I do feel it has gotten better with each version of maya, and now with macs on the intel chips. I havent used windows in a couple years now, but maya has been pretty smooth on the mac now.

A lot of the software for 3d is pretty similar once you get the basic concepts down. from then on it's just re-learning the interface.
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 07:13 PM   #8
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I'm a C4D user. Awesome program in how easy it is to put something together. Very stable.

If you get C4D, make sure you have a high resolution screen - 1920 X 1200 (or 1080). There a a ton of small buttons that do not scale well to a small screen (e.g. MacBook level)

FYI, with version 11.0, its now a Cocoa 64 bit app. The latest shipping version is 11.5.
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 08:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modular View Post
i've run maya on a mac for quite some time, and put it through every type of animation / modeling / renders. Comparing it to running on Windows, it wasn't as snappy moving around the interface, but the rendering was just as fast. I do feel it has gotten better with each version of maya, and now with macs on the intel chips. I havent used windows in a couple years now, but maya has been pretty smooth on the mac now.

A lot of the software for 3d is pretty similar once you get the basic concepts down. from then on it's just re-learning the interface.
Maya and 3ds max are both 3d applications by Autodesk. What's the key difference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Full of Win View Post
I'm a C4D user. Awesome program in how easy it is to put something together. Very stable.

If you get C4D, make sure you have a high resolution screen - 1920 X 1200 (or 1080). There a a ton of small buttons that do not scale well to a small screen (e.g. MacBook level)

FYI, with version 11.0, its now a Cocoa 64 bit app. The latest shipping version is 11.5.
I have a 1900 by 1200 screen.

I have the impression that there are more "prefab" elements like basic shapes in C4D (which would speed up work) and that the Body Paint feature makes it more easy to apple texture.

Would you say C4D is more fun to use than other 3D software? (one could run 3ds max on windows via bootcamp)

I currently have on of the white 24" iMacs, which is a 2.1 Ghz Core 2 Duo, and it's already maxed out at 3Gb Ram. Would you say I can run C4D on this?
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 09:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostromo View Post
Maya and 3ds max are both 3d applications by Autodesk. What's the key difference?



I have a 1900 by 1200 screen.

I have the impression that there are more "prefab" elements like basic shapes in C4D (which would speed up work) and that the Body Paint feature makes it more easy to apple texture.

Would you say C4D is more fun to use than other 3D software? (one could run 3ds max on windows via bootcamp)

I currently have on of the white 24" iMacs, which is a 2.1 Ghz Core 2 Duo, and it's already maxed out at 3Gb Ram. Would you say I can run C4D on this?
quite happily, i ran the same machine untill a few days ago with only 2Gb of ram, and it worked quite happily,
cinema 4D romps it's a great piece of software
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 09:11 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Bennieboyİ View Post
quite happily, i ran the same machine untill a few days ago with only 2Gb of ram, and it worked quite happily,
cinema 4D romps it's a great piece of software
I'm sure I want to use 3D software an am ready to pay for it if it pays.

So, would you say it's worth the extra money over the free Blender 2.5?
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 09:50 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Nostromo View Post
I'm sure I want to use 3D software an am ready to pay for it if it pays.

So, would you say it's worth the extra money over the free Blender 2.5?
definitely, i tried blender when i had a pc and it didnt like working very well, been using cinema 4d for nearly a year now and wouldnt touch anything else
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Old Jan 22, 2010, 02:36 AM   #13
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Might as well throw Lightwave into the mix

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/

The learning curve on any 3d software program is steep, so you really need to decide what your long term plans are. If you're just going to be a hobbyist, then Blender is probably the way to go. If you ever plan to work at a high-end effects house, then you'll need to know Maya. At a game house, you probably should know 3Ds max. If you are going to work at a mid-level effects house, for example Zoic Studio, then you can get by knowing Lightwave, CD4, or any of the other mid-level programs. The main issue is that your have a strong portfolio in the discipline you choose. A safe bet is to start with Lightwave, CD4, Softimage, or 3Ds Max and see how it goes. Once you find your strengths and interests, then you can go to a more complex program like Maya and specialize in being a modeler, rigger, or animator.

You might also want to join CGsociety because they have a bunch of current info on what is happening in the 3d industry.

Be sure an start slow because you might find that 3d is not your thing. It's very technical. I know a few people who really wanted to learn 3d because of all the cool things that can be done with it. But once they get into it they find that the process of 3d to be so technical and time consuming that it takes all the fun out it. I had a friend say "I love what you can do with 3d, but I hate working with 3d."

If you are a student, some of these programs have great pricing. You can get a seat of Lightwave (full version) for $150 (last time I checked). It might be worth signing up for a class at your local college and buying the software with a discount. That's how I got into Lightwave. I think that Maya student version is around $350? Not sure but it would be worth you looking it up.
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Old Jan 22, 2010, 03:37 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by THX1139 View Post
Might as well throw Lightwave into the mix

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/

The learning curve on any 3d software program is steep, so you really need to decide what your long term plans are. If you're just going to be a hobbyist, then Blender is probably the way to go. If you ever plan to work at a high-end effects house, then you'll need to know Maya. At a game house, you probably should know 3Ds max. If you are going to work at a mid-level effects house, for example Zoic Studio, then you can get by knowing Lightwave, CD4, or any of the other mid-level programs. The main issue is that your have a strong portfolio in the discipline you choose. A safe bet is to start with Lightwave, CD4, Softimage, or 3Ds Max and see how it goes. Once you find your strengths and interests, then you can go to a more complex program like Maya and specialize in being a modeler, rigger, or animator.

You might also want to join CGsociety because they have a bunch of current info on what is happening in the 3d industry.

Be sure an start slow because you might find that 3d is not your thing. It's very technical. I know a few people who really wanted to learn 3d because of all the cool things that can be done with it. But once they get into it they find that the process of 3d to be so technical and time consuming that it takes all the fun out it. I had a friend say "I love what you can do with 3d, but I hate working with 3d."

If you are a student, some of these programs have great pricing. You can get a seat of Lightwave (full version) for $150 (last time I checked). It might be worth signing up for a class at your local college and buying the software with a discount. That's how I got into Lightwave. I think that Maya student version is around $350? Not sure but it would be worth you looking it up.
Thanks for that good information, THX1139 (I hope 1138 is well. It's been a while since I saw that movie).

My university days have gone, but the local college idea is not bad.

As for now I mostly want it to work in combination with Photoshop as I like to change backdrops and scenery. I'd also like to do some video. Other than that, I'm on the screenwriting end of the movie world, and am sure I'll never be a professional special effects man.

I got some ideas on how Cinema 4D works from studying a how-to book at a book store. What is, in your opinion, the key difference between C4D and Lightwave?

What's your opinion of starting out with Blender and see where it goes?

That would be reasonable, only it seems that the steep learning curve of a 3D program is unnecessarily complicated by Blender's user-unfriendly ways. It might put someone off even if he had an interest in learning 3D.

That Focus book I linked above about C4D really made learning the software a good, creative endeavor, while the Blender tutorials seem to be a option to the joy of a root canal treatment.

I had some moment of truth where I had the strong impression that in a foreseeable future even photographers won't be able to work without knowledge of 3D software.
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Old Jan 22, 2010, 02:51 PM   #15
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Nostromo - take a look at the latest Lynda.com course on Cinema 4d. I found the previous ones (10 and 9.5), well - sort of a bit disjointed and not great. The latest one on v11 was, I thought, a pretty good all round starting point (especially if you've got the Anne Powers book as well.)

If you watch the whole course (perhaps join for the month or try and get a guest pass code etc) it might help make your mind up in terms of how you'd get on with it and 3d in general.
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Old Jan 22, 2010, 09:30 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by jeremy h View Post
Nostromo - take a look at the latest Lynda.com course on Cinema 4d. I found the previous ones (10 and 9.5), well - sort of a bit disjointed and not great. The latest one on v11 was, I thought, a pretty good all round starting point (especially if you've got the Anne Powers book as well.)

If you watch the whole course (perhaps join for the month or try and get a guest pass code etc) it might help make your mind up in terms of how you'd get on with it and 3d in general.
Lynda.com is great and on a subscription is on my shopping list.
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Old Jan 24, 2010, 03:51 PM   #17
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Blender's interface really isn't that bad, I think it just gets a bad rap from people who are familiar with other 3D software interfaces. If I can pick it up, you most certainly can.

And what's the big problem with downloading a free piece of software and fiddling with it for a bit, while you are trying to decide which program to spend money on? It's not like you'd be wasting any time, not really. The 3D graphics world is so totally different than 2D (Photoshop, etc..), that I'd have to think any time you spend with any app, figuring out how to use it, is only going to help you in the end.

I don't get why people out there complain so much about Blender's interface, it just really isn't that terrible. It's no worse that picking up any other program, and learning it from scratch. All that happens is that people get scared away from the program, people that aren't ever going to be in the industry anyway. It's got a pretty comprehensive package; particles, fluids, cloth sim, animation, game engine with physics, compositing engine, decent renderer, excellent online community, books and videos you can purchase to help learn it, etc...

And by the way, Modo is a pretty sweet program. It's got a lot of really nice features, new hair and fur engine, replicators, awesome renderer. But, it still doesn't have particles, fluids, cloth sim, and it's not very good for character animation yet. But it's an awesome little program.
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Old Jan 24, 2010, 05:36 PM   #18
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Blender's interface really isn't that bad, I think it just gets a bad rap from people who are familiar with other 3D software interfaces. If I can pick it up, you most certainly can.

And what's the big problem with downloading a free piece of software and fiddling with it for a bit, while you are trying to decide which program to spend money on? It's not like you'd be wasting any time, not really. The 3D graphics world is so totally different than 2D (Photoshop, etc..), that I'd have to think any time you spend with any app, figuring out how to use it, is only going to help you in the end.

I don't get why people out there complain so much about Blender's interface, it just really isn't that terrible. It's no worse that picking up any other program, and learning it from scratch. All that happens is that people get scared away from the program, people that aren't ever going to be in the industry anyway. It's got a pretty comprehensive package; particles, fluids, cloth sim, animation, game engine with physics, compositing engine, decent renderer, excellent online community, books and videos you can purchase to help learn it, etc...

And by the way, Modo is a pretty sweet program. It's got a lot of really nice features, new hair and fur engine, replicators, awesome renderer. But, it still doesn't have particles, fluids, cloth sim, and it's not very good for character animation yet. But it's an awesome little program.
Thank you, Rick. You made very viable points here.

I will take my time and research different programs. As for me, knowing how to work in 3D will be a must for photographers in the years to come.

PS: Would you recommend downloading version 2.49b or 2.5 Alpha O?
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Old Jan 27, 2010, 03:42 AM   #19
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I wouldn't bank on finding one 3D app that does it all and does it all better than others. Most 3D artists use a few apps together and mix and match depending on their needs.

It's probably a good idea to start with an inexpensive (or free) modeller and then grow from there. Once you learn the basics of modelling in one application you can then pretty much model in any application.

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Old Jan 27, 2010, 04:46 AM   #20
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So you'd say that if you start out with Blender, you can quite easily move over to Cinema 3D or any other 3D software?
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Old Jan 27, 2010, 06:33 AM   #21
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What I mean is, the discipline of modelling (polygonal or subdivision) will be the same regardless of the application used and that is the most important thing to get to grips with. If you get that then moving to different apps is just a case of learning their way of doing more or less the same thing. There will always be a valley of pain to go through before you get to grips with any new application (it's UI, keystrokes, tool names etc.), so you will still have to learn a bunch of new stuff when you switch apps, but the techniques of modelling will translate across all apps. That's a portable skill

This site is a great resource for the basics: http://guerrillacg.org/home/3d-polygon-modeling (Note that the basics are not application specific)

Where you start depends on your budget, your needs and your aptitude. Try out a lot of demo's, take your time and give them a real spin (a few weeks playing and following tutorials). Only then will you get a decent idea about what feels right for you. Good luck.
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Old Jan 27, 2010, 04:25 PM   #22
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Thanks Pete.

Great link, by the way.

So I'll learn the basics first and will then be able to appreciate which application will be best for me.
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Old Jan 27, 2010, 08:17 PM   #23
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Good points in here.

Yes, fundamentally, the apps are the same, you model, you texture, you animate.

Blender is quite popular in Europe.

I use and love Cinema 4d. I'd say Cinema 4d is the best for video production, especially with After Effects.

Studio Max is the choice for making games.

Download Blender and mess around with it for a month or two. Anything you do with Blender will not be a waste of time.

I think some of the apps have demo versions that work fine, but render with a watermark.

Only my opinion, but Cinema 4d wins when you look at price, features, quality and ease of use, especially for video and general purpose multimedia work. If you know you are going to build games, go Studio Max. If you dream of Hollywood and TV commercials, keep a demo version of Maya around and open it up every once in a while.

I've dabbled with most of the apps (including Lightwave) and Cinema 4d is by far the easiest to get into at a decent level pretty quickly. Lightwave was weird. Maya was rough. Studio Max was probably the second easiest to use.
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Old Jan 27, 2010, 08:27 PM   #24
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So you'd say that if you start out with Blender, you can quite easily move over to Cinema 3D or any other 3D software?
I would say yes.
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Old May 31, 2010, 07:44 AM   #25
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Bryce,blender,maya etc

off all the 3d programs that i have played with to begin learning 3d
nothing come close to bryce--

it gave me the basics
blender is fantastic since you become part of a community

im not sure it's a good idea to get into anyone specify program --i would do tons of research on it but one thing would sway me and that is the company behind the application--like adobe and autodesk--you want long term stability

take a look at the history of caligari
hth
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