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Old Mar 26, 2010, 10:42 AM   #76
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I think Sega might disagree with you again!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Channel

I'm not sure Sega channel had multiplayer, but it brought the console online to download new content and predated many others.

I will agree that Dreamcast made it viable and then it became more wide spread with PS2 and later Xbox.
After reading that link, and checking the "See Also" section at the bottom, I found out a few interesting things that I was unaware of.

First, it appears that the 2600 was truly the first console to have online functionality. With the GameLine adapter, you could download games to play right on your 2600. No multiplayer, but still, it was connected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GameLine

The next apparently was the Intellivision PlayCable. This used a connection with your cable service and could also download games to be played on the console.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayCable

Apparently the PlayCable was introduced in 1981, with the GameLine coming some time before that, though I can't seem to find a date. Either way, it would appear that these 2 machines, as crude and rudimentary as they are, were in fact, the first consoles to be "connected" in some form.

The other interesting fact I learned was that there was a modem available for the Nintendo Famicom. This was well after the 2600 and Intellivision, so obviously not the first...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famicom_Modem

But after reading that, I realized something quite amazing. Since the original Famicom had an available modem, that means that EVERY SINGLE Nintendo home console ever released, since back in the 80s, has had some form of online connectivity. Granted, this has never been GOOD connectivity, but still. That is a long time making hardware, and every step of the way, they have tried to do the online thing. I found that pretty interesting.

Other than the Wii, here are the other 2 parts from Nintendo...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64DD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintend..._Modem_Adapter
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 10:48 AM   #77
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Definitely interesting... I spent a while yesterday reading all about the DD. Until then I had no clue that it added online support. I did know about the GameCube though.
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 10:50 AM   #78
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I was a Sony/Playstation devotee until the advent of the PS3 and it's ridiculous price and problems early on in the game. I was in the market for a new console and finally decided to take the plunge, bite the bullet, swallow my pride, etc, etc, and buy an Xbox 360. I'm glad I did.. as much as I hate to admit it, Microsoft got it right with the 360 and I can't wait for the 1080 (or whatever).
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 11:38 AM   #79
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I was a Sony/Playstation devotee until the advent of the PS3 and it's ridiculous price and problems early on in the game. I was in the market for a new console and finally decided to take the plunge, bite the bullet, swallow my pride, etc, etc, and buy an Xbox 360. I'm glad I did.. as much as I hate to admit it, Microsoft got it right with the 360 and I can't wait for the 1080 (or whatever).
Hmm. Glad to see some honesty here.

Question: If you were looking for a console now, do you think you still would have chosen the 360?

See what I mean about feeling bad about buying something made by Microsoft? I couldn't do what you did, but it sounds like you had a hard time deciding.
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 12:04 PM   #80
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See what I mean about feeling bad about buying something made by Microsoft? I couldn't do what you did.
But you did by using bootcamp on your mac

You also used your friends xbox 360, your aversion to anything Microsoft never stopped you having a go on theirs




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If you were looking for a console now, do you think you still would have chosen the 360?
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I'm glad I did.. as much as I hate to admit it, Microsoft got it right with the 360 and I can't wait for the 1080 (or whatever).

That answers that question. You still have an inability to read and comprehend other posters unless it adheres to your fixed prejudicial ideas.
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 01:03 PM   #81
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But you did by using bootcamp on your mac

You also used your friends xbox 360, your aversion to anything Microsoft never stopped you having a go on theirs









That answers that question. You still have an inability to read and comprehend other posters unless it adheres to your fixed prejudicial ideas.
He was saying how the PlayStation 3 used to be expensive and it had a rocky start. I was asking if he was in the market for a new system now (without owning the X360 first) if he would've still went for it.

Also, I never said I wouldn't play an XBox, at least I didn't have to pay for it.

Another thing is... I already explained to you that running Windows on my Mac hardware makes me feel better about having Windows in the first place. Especially since I use it for gaming only. I see the desktop for about 5 seconds until I launch the game. Windows just happens to be the wrapper.

I can disguise Windows by hiding it away on a separate disk inside my computer. I can't disguise a whole X360.

I really don't care if you think I'm being prejudice or not. There's nothing against not liking a product or service from a company. I'm not like I'm offending anyone.
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 01:43 PM   #82
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No, life doesn't boil down to 2 companies. It's just the way I feel about those 2 particular companies. Why does it bother you so much? If I'm going to buy a new computer... I know for a FACT I won't even CONSIDER buying anything with Windows on it because I DON'T like it. Why is that so hard to understand for you?
So I don't get this, you think Microsoft makes computers? They make an OS, software, peripherals, the Xbox 360 and a load of private/business/server stuff.
I use XP but only because I have to. But Microsoft make very good peripherals. I've got infrared MS mice from 1999 that are still in full working order. I've never, ever had a MS piece of hardware break on me (my brother had to get his Xbox replaced). Infact the Xbox 360 is Microsofts first and only problematic piece of hardware. There was no such problem with the original Xbox, still got mine and still use it for the XBMC from time to time.

You're well and truly entitled to your opinions but this is the equivalent to me not buying any Apple product because of yellow screened Macbooks. Or not buying any Sony consoles after the class action lawsuits regarding PS1 and PS2 lasers and the dead pixel epidemic of the early PSPs. I find the reasoning very obscure and I'm genuinely interested in it.
Just out of curiosity, given the PS3 is the first Sony console free of any major problems why don't you dislike them for their other/previous mistakes?
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 02:03 PM   #83
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Question: If you were looking for a console now, do you think you still would have chosen the 360?

See what I mean about feeling bad about buying something made by Microsoft? I couldn't do what you did, but it sounds like you had a hard time deciding.
Knowing what I know now? Yes. I still think that Sony took the wrong path, has made a lot of missteps, and is constantly trying to play catch up. Some of the more major issues:
  • Looking at the walls in my local GameStop(s), it seems to me that there are simply more games for the 360 than for the PS3. This could be due to the 360's longer lifspan, but let's face it, the PS3 has been out for a while.
  • The controllers on the PS3 are clearly not designed for me. Whether they had the Japanese or Asians, children, women, or just smaller people in general in mind when they dragged that tired old design over to the PS3, I do not know. But I'm a big guy with big hands.
  • I don't think I should be forced to purchase tech that I don't want with my GAME console. If I wanted a Blueray drive, I'd by one. I understand that Sony was trying to cheat and stack the odds in favor of their supported tech (which worked), but seriously.
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 02:14 PM   #84
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Knowing what I know now? Yes. I still think that Sony took the wrong path, has made a lot of missteps, and is constantly trying to play catch up. Some of the more major issues:
  • Looking at the walls in my local GameStop(s), it seems to me that there are simply more games for the 360 than for the PS3. This could be due to the 360's longer lifspan, but let's face it, the PS3 has been out for a while.
  • The controllers on the PS3 are clearly not designed for me. Whether they had the Japanese or Asians, children, women, or just smaller people in general in mind when they dragged that tired old design over to the PS3, I do not know. But I'm a big guy with big hands.
  • I don't think I should be forced to purchase tech that I don't want with my GAME console. If I wanted a Blueray drive, I'd by one. I understand that Sony was trying to cheat and stack the odds in favor of their supported tech (which worked), but seriously.
This is the same thing I kept saying, but it's turned out to not be so bad. I still prefer the 360 controller as I do have bigger hands and I do find it more comfortable.

Also, nobody is forcing you to buy the PS3. It has Blueray for reasons other than to sell BD movies. The original Playstation moved to CD's because they wanted better cutscenes in their games. Cartreges were, at the time, very limited in space. N64 carts were usually 16-32 MB. Sony's choice to use the CD for it's distribution gave it 650MB at it's disposal.

Now, with High Def everything being limited to the 8GB DL-DVD is becoming restrictive. The BD ROM gives developers a LOT more headroom for adding high definition textures and videos.

What I'm trying to say is... The choice was because it's a game console.
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 02:29 PM   #85
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What I'm trying to say is... The choice was because it's a game console.
Then call me a cynic.

While more space is a 'legitimate' reasoning, I am not na´ve enough to believe that pushing the BluRay in their game console had absolutely nothing to do with winning the HD content war. There's nothing so special about the PS3 and it's games that made it 100% necessary to put games on BlueRay discs and not on DVDs. Particularly when the early price point put the game console in the $700+ range.
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 03:52 PM   #86
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I think the PS3 is a more powerful system and it's more future-proof. Some of the games suck on it, but some of the games suck on the X360 too.

The ONLY thing the X360 has over the PS3 is that it's easier to develop games on. However, when developers create a game on the PS3 and port it to the 360, they both pretty much run and look the same.
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 04:22 PM   #87
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The ONLY thing the X360 has over the PS3 is that it's easier to develop games on.
It is $100 cheaper, as well. Which, if all you want is to do is play games on your game console, that is quite a large discount.

A buddy of mine was in this exact situation recently. He doesn't care about "teh console warz" and just wanted something to play Rock Band and Madden and stuff like that with his wife and brother. Online is a non-issue with him. So, he bought an Arcade for $200, an extra wireless controller, and then bought Madden '10 and Left 4 Dead 2. For basically the price of a 120GB Slim PS3, he got a console, 2 controllers, and 2 of the games he wanted.
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 06:09 PM   #88
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There's nothing so special about the PS3 and it's games that made it 100% necessary to put games on BlueRay discs and not on DVDs
Yeah i love swapping discs.
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 06:32 PM   #89
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Yeah i love swapping discs.
Oh snap!
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 06:37 PM   #90
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Yeah i love swapping discs.
BD rips ftw!
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 07:05 PM   #91
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Yeah i love swapping discs.
I'm curious. How many games out there are multiple discs? And of those, how many are large, 50+ hour RPGs? Is swapping once every 10-15 hours really that difficult? Plus, with the ability to install the full game to the hard drive now, this is even less of an issue. At least for me.

Though I am curious to know what games are multi-disc. I only own 2 games that are, and neither "requires" a swap (ODST & Forza 3).
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 10:30 PM   #92
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Iirc, Mass Effect 2 has two discs (idk i only have the pc version), and FF13 has 3 discs. Forza 3 has two discs though one is an optional install because they couldnt fit all the cars on one disc (you know this, im just saying it for the benefit of those who dont). Star Ocean: The Last Hope has 3 discs i think, though i dont know if there is swapping involved (i would assume so).

Look at it this way though. Two of the biggest 360 games of the year (ME2, FF13) are on multiple discs (and its only march!), whereas they would have been fine on one blu-ray. Sure, swapping isnt that big of a deal, but if we have the technology why should we have to settle for dvd? Swapping discs in FF[7/8/9] back in the psx era was fine because cd was the best they could do in 1994. Today we have discs that can hold 50gb, so why settle for something less?

As a direct comment to Yellow, look at MGS4. Kojima had to take content out to make it fit on a 50gb disc, but according to you its just as easy to use 6 dvds, right? How about how FF13 is on 3 dvds and still suffers from uber-compression? If MS had put a HD-DVD drive in the 360 then blu-ray probably would have lost and the 360 wouldnt look as pitiful next to the ps3. But its more important for MS to push out cheap junk than give the customer something worth owning. I have nothing against MS and i gladly play many games on windows 7, but anyone with half a brain can see that MS built the 360 as cheaply as possible. Hell, they didnt even spend the time/money to engineer a heat sink properly. Heat dissipation is pretty much the first thing you will learn in any engineering class, but MS must have missed the first few days of school.
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 11:06 PM   #93
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...but if we have the technology why should we have to settle for dvd?
In my opinion, cost. Why doesn't the PS3 come with a 500GB drive? Or with 802.11N? Or with an official headset? Or HD video cables? All of these things are available technologically, and would certainly be welcome from a feature standpoint. But, all of those things would also add $$$ to the already higher price of the unit. Just because something is available, doesn't mean it makes sense financially, for the console maker or the consumer.
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If MS had put a HD-DVD drive in the 360 then blu-ray probably would have lost and the 360 wouldnt look as pitiful next to the ps3. But its more important for MS to push out cheap junk than give the customer something worth owning.
It doesn't look pitiful, or feel like junk, to me. I get much enjoyment from owning it.
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...but anyone with half a brain can see that MS built the 360 as cheaply as possible.
I'm no business expert, but isn't that how hardware manufacturing works?
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Hell, they didnt even spend the time/money to engineer a heat sink properly. Heat dissipation is pretty much the first thing you will learn in any engineering class, but MS must have missed the first few days of school.
Better show them how to do it then...

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Old Mar 27, 2010, 01:54 AM   #94
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A game swap on 360 takes all of 20 seconds to get your ar$e off the couch. Why is that a big issue? A mandatory install on ps3 can take at times 10-15 minutes on the same game. Your probably waiting longer all told on ps3 than the inconvieniance of swapping your disk on 360.

Those games on Ps3 that have used BluRays full size (namely MGS4 & FFX13) are not made up of 50gb of high res textures and mamoth gaming worlds. They are mostly made up of massive full motion video cut scenes. That does not equal gameplay. FFX13 could have been identical on 360 to ps3 cousin, but is not because of poor porting. The compression technique used for the FMV is shoddy by SquareEnix and other gameplay elements are just poorly converted rather than limited by Disc Size. Remeber it may be on 3discs but FFX13 leaves over 1gb free on each disc rather than using it to it's full potential. FFX13 should not be used to extolt the virtues of BD over DVD.

The only good thing about the port is that Game swapping in FFX13 is also minimal.

I'm also sure that MGS4 would have been more than possible on 360 if using decent compression techniques on the FMV, and the inconvieniance of swapping a few discs during the game fares well against the inconvieniance of a 10-15 min install at startup, followed by a number of further installs throughout the game.

BD has yet to successfully make it's case over DVD, and as both M$ & Sony move to what is predicted to be digital delivery media based future consoles the case may never be truly proved.
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 07:53 AM   #95
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A game swap on 360 takes all of 20 seconds to get your ar$e off the couch. Why is that a big issue? A mandatory install on ps3 can take at times 10-15 minutes on the same game. Your probably waiting longer all told on ps3 than the inconvieniance of swapping your disk on 360.

Those games on Ps3 that have used BluRays full size (namely MGS4 & FFX13) are not made up of 50gb of high res textures and mamoth gaming worlds. They are mostly made up of massive full motion video cut scenes. That does not equal gameplay. FFX13 could have been identical on 360 to ps3 cousin, but is not because of poor porting. The compression technique used for the FMV is shoddy by SquareEnix and other gameplay elements are just poorly converted rather than limited by Disc Size. Remeber it may be on 3discs but FFX13 leaves over 1gb free on each disc rather than using it to it's full potential. FFX13 should not be used to extolt the virtues of BD over DVD.

The only good thing about the port is that Game swapping in FFX13 is also minimal.

I'm also sure that MGS4 would have been more than possible on 360 if using decent compression techniques on the FMV, and the inconvieniance of swapping a few discs during the game fares well against the inconvieniance of a 10-15 min install at startup, followed by a number of further installs throughout the game.

BD has yet to successfully make it's case over DVD, and as both M$ & Sony move to what is predicted to be digital delivery media based future consoles the case may never be truly proved.
Okay.
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 10:37 AM   #96
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Those games on Ps3 that have used BluRays full size (namely MGS4 & FFX13)...
After reading up on this, neither of these games used the full disc. MGS4 came in at ~33GB, and FFXIII was ~37GB. So, even after Kojima claimed "Blu-ray isn't big enough for MGS4" he ended up using only 2/3 of the space.
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...are not made up of 50gb of high res textures and mamoth gaming worlds. They are mostly made up of massive full motion video cut scenes.
Exactly. One takes up ~37GB (PS3), while the other has a full install size of 18.3GB (360). Given that no gameplay elements were lost in the port, and that people are reporting on the obvious downgrade in FMV quality, it shouldn't be surprising where the bulk of the disc space use is in FF games.
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BD has yet to successfully make it's case over DVD...
I think, as a data delivery medium, it is a fantastic thing. I'm mean, I would love it if the 360 had Blu-ray. More disc size gives developers greater opportunity for larger, more impressive games. Not that bigger is better, but the extra space would certainly be welcome.

But, as a movie delivery device, I think Blu-ray has a lot to prove, personally. I own a handful of my favorite movies on Blu-ray, but will often just buy the DVD. I don't really care about super-ultra-mega crisp images in my movie watching. Just like how I want fun and exciting gameplay with my video games rather than flashy visuals, I want an interesting and engaging movie instead of some CGI-laden, explosion-fest. Because of that, the higher cost of Blu-ray movies, and ease of use with Netflix streaming, means my movie watching is fine in SD for now.
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 12:41 PM   #97
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In my opinion, cost. Why doesn't the PS3 come with a 500GB drive? Or with 802.11N? Or with an official headset? Or HD video cables? All of these things are available technologically, and would certainly be welcome from a feature standpoint. But, all of those things would also add $$$ to the already higher price of the unit. Just because something is available, doesn't mean it makes sense financially, for the console maker or the consumer.
The ps3 was probably in production in early 2006 and draft 1.06 of N wasnt even approved until Nov of that year. Putting it in the ps3 would be like putting a hydrogen engine in the 2010 Focus.

As for the HDD, i dont think Sony really knew how people were going to use their PS3s, so they gave a 60 and a 20, both decent options in 2006 for storing a couple of movies and stuff. People then started using their ps3 as their only media hub, which worked out well because you can drop any 2.5" sata drive in the ps3 and it will work. *gasp* Non-proprietary addons! What a novel idea...

The ps3 has bigger HDD space now (same wifi, but N still hasnt been finished iirc), still has built-in everything, and id down to $300. The Arcade is $200 and looks like the starved younger brother of the ps3. Still no built-in wifi, still proprietary hdd/memory cards, still no rechargeable controller (though i may be wrong about that, have they updated it?)...

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I'm no business expert, but isn't that how hardware manufacturing works?
I am still laughing over the irony of posting this on an apple forum.
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Better show them how to do it then...

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Fair enough, but only if you go apply to Sony and teach them how to make the ps3 less complete ootb. We'll see who gets farther; someone who wants to improve a product or someone who is ok with mediocrity.

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BD has yet to successfully make it's case over DVD, and as both M$ & Sony move to what is predicted to be digital delivery media based future consoles the case may never be truly proved.
Go back a few years and that can be cd vs cassette tape or dvd vs vhs.

I do hope they never fully move to digital distribution. If the next gen is all downloadable games (which i doubt, mainly because the US's internet speeds are still **** compared to the world) then i'm just going to quit gaming. I like to own the games i buy, not long-term rent them. I could rant about that for a few pages, but i'll try to control myself
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 02:42 PM   #98
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The ps3 was probably in production in early 2006 and draft 1.06 of N wasnt even approved until Nov of that year. Putting it in the ps3 would be like putting a hydrogen engine in the 2010 Focus.
I was speaking about now, as in 2010. In your own words "if we have the technology, why should we settle?" There are 500GB laptop drives, why not offer it? We now have the final spec for 802.11N, it should be in. People play online a lot, so why not give them an official headset? This box is positioned as a High-Def tour de force, so why not toss in an HDMI cable? Hell, we now have official USB 3.0, so why not change the ports to the new spec? The answer to those questions is obvious, to me at least, though I'm betting you disagree.
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The ps3 has bigger HDD space now (same wifi, but N still hasnt been finished iirc), still has built-in everything, and id down to $300. The Arcade is $200 and looks like the starved younger brother of the ps3. Still no built-in wifi, still proprietary hdd/memory cards, still no rechargeable controller (though i may be wrong about that, have they updated it?)...
Look, I'm not questioning the ADVANTAGES of the things Sony puts in their systems. They all have a purpose. Nor am I saying that MS does everything right, because that is far from the truth as well. I'm just saying, for me personally, and for many of my friends, we use our game consoles almost exclusively to play games. Period, end of story.

So, when Sony made the choice to add a lot of features into their console, they did give it a very nice spec sheet. But, it was a spec sheet that far exceeded my needs. I've never used the wifi in my PS3, my 40GB HDD is currently PACKED with ~1.5GB of PSN games, and I rarely ever have a disc (blu-ray or otherwise) inside the drive. An Arcade-level unit without those features, and only a ~$200 retail price would have been perfect for me. But alas, the $400 40GB model was the cheapest I could get at the time to quench my need for PJ Monsters and Super Stardust HD.
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I am still laughing over the irony of posting this on an apple forum.
You apparently missed my point if you found my statement funny.
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Fair enough, but only if you go apply to Sony and teach them how to make the ps3 less complete ootb. We'll see who gets farther; someone who wants to improve a product or someone who is ok with mediocrity.
But you see, that is where you are wrong, in my opinion. By using the term "COMPLETE" when talking about something, you are saying that it is done and final. But, as with everything in the electronics industry, nothing is ever complete. You have to choose the items and features for your device that can best serve the market and maximize profits at the time.

The reason why Sony doesn't offer a PS3 with all the things I mentioned earlier is because if they did, even though it would be an amazing piece of technology, it would probably retail for $600 (again), and not many people would buy it (again). In my opinion, Sony made some wrong choices by trying to get so many features in the box. That is all.
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 03:27 PM   #99
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I was speaking about now, as in 2010. In your own words "if we have the technology, why should we settle?" There are 500GB laptop drives, why not offer it? We now have the final spec for 802.11N, it should be in. People play online a lot, so why not give them an official headset? This box is positioned as a High-Def tour de force, so why not toss in an HDMI cable? Hell, we now have official USB 3.0, so why not change the ports to the new spec? The answer to those questions is obvious, to me at least, though I'm betting you disagree.
So Sony should be able to design a Ps3 based on information that wont be finalized until 4 years later but its ok for MS to build a console with a dvd drive when theres finalized blu-ray and hd-dvd available during their design phase?

Yeah, Sony should have put a USB 3.0 port in the ps3 three years ago when USB 3 barely existed....

I didnt read the rest of your post because you arent making a whole lot of sense, tbh.
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 03:28 PM   #100
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I do hope they never fully move to digital distribution. If the next gen is all downloadable games (which i doubt, mainly because the US's internet speeds are still **** compared to the world) then i'm just going to quit gaming. I like to own the games i buy, not long-term rent them. I could rant about that for a few pages, but i'll try to control myself

Unfortunately it seems likely if 2012-2014 are the next-gen timelines, as much as I would prefer physical media myself also.

For developers it means more $ from sales, it alleviates piracy, allows them to control us with DRM, and prevents a second hand trade industry which publishers & developers hate as revenue is circumvented with trades.

Its win win win for publishers & developers. Its a pain in the a$$ for the consumer.
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