Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Archive > Archives of Old Posts > MacBytes.com News Discussion

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Nov 21, 2004, 11:53 AM   #1
MacBytes
macrumors bot
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Mac crowd bashes Windows


Category: Opinion/Interviews
Link: Mac crowd bashes Windows
Posted on MacBytes.com

Approved by Mudbug
MacBytes is offline   0
Old Nov 21, 2004, 11:58 AM   #2
innervision
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: californ-i-a
Send a message via AIM to innervision
sun rises in the east, sets in the west, world takes notice
__________________
'i'd rather die for a cause than die
just because'
innervision is offline   0
Old Nov 21, 2004, 12:24 PM   #3
azdude
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Article
But the reason behind the growing support for Macs has less to do with Apple than with the failure of Microsoft's Windows operating system and Internet Explorer browser.
Not sure I agree with this. IE and Windows have been sucking lately, but I think Apple's been doing much more to help *themselves*.

- The retail stores!
- The iPod
- iBook, Powerbook, iMac (I see *zillions* on campus!!)
- Cram & Jam (again... Apple has a huge hold on college EDU sales, at my campus, at least)


Who knows... it's likely a combination of all these things, plus Windows & IE.
azdude is offline   0
Old Nov 21, 2004, 02:11 PM   #4
Fender2112
macrumors 6502a
 
Fender2112's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Send a message via AIM to Fender2112
Is it me or did the article end rather abruptly? Anyhow I did find this statement to be quite profound:
Quote:
Increasingly, Microsoft's products seem to reflect the arrogance and sloppiness that comes with being a virtual monopoly.
__________________
Really? Really, really!
Fender2112 is offline   0
Old Nov 21, 2004, 02:33 PM   #5
wrldwzrd89
macrumors G4
 
wrldwzrd89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Solon, OH
This doesn't really seem newsworthy to me. I guess that's why it's on MacBytes. After all, Mac users have been bashing Windows (and Windows users bashing Macs) for as long as the two operating systems have been in existence.
__________________
iMac Intel (Rev H, 27"), 1TB HDD, 16GB RAM, 10.8.4
wrldwzrd89 is offline   0
Old Nov 21, 2004, 03:56 PM   #6
Photorun
Banned
 
Photorun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NYC
... meanwhile, water wet, film at 11.
Photorun is offline   0
Old Nov 21, 2004, 05:25 PM   #7
wdlove
macrumors 604
 
wdlove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Certainly not surprising at all. A decades old theme.
__________________
First MacRumors "Contributor"
wdlove is offline   0
Old Nov 21, 2004, 06:28 PM   #8
Mudbug
Administrator emeritus
 
Mudbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North Central Colorado
Send a message via AIM to Mudbug Send a message via Skype™ to Mudbug
sorry - there wasn't a whole lot of other stuff to put up today, so this got the green light. better than nothing, I thought... but I could have been wrong
__________________
I think I understand what you're talking about, but where are we going to find a duck and a rubber hose at this time of night?
Mudbug is offline   0
Old Nov 21, 2004, 11:39 PM   #9
Yvan256
macrumors 601
 
Yvan256's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by azdude
Not sure I agree with this. IE and Windows have been sucking lately, but I think Apple's been doing much more to help *themselves*.

- The retail stores!
- The iPod
- iBook, Powerbook, iMac (I see *zillions* on campus!!)
- Cram & Jam (again... Apple has a huge hold on college EDU sales, at my campus, at least)


Who knows... it's likely a combination of all these things, plus Windows & IE.
1. Don't want to sound harsh, but what retail stores? (no, the world doesn't only revolve around the USA. Yes there is stores in other countries, but the TOTAL is under 5, so let's skip it).

2. I just wish there was more Macs that people could actually afford (where's that updated eMac already?) And stop telling me Macs have better value. In the end a lot of people buy the lowest cost computer. While Apple won't ever be able to sell 600$CAN computers (though we can still hope), they could at least price their stuff more aggressively (AIO is nice, but people aren't stupid to the point of not being to plug a monitor they *already have*). A lot of people also simply want a Mac for OS X, not for the uber-cool, snob class, nice-looking computer feeling. I'd take a beige box G5/OS X over an iMac x86/Windows any day. In fact, just sell us a damn G5 motherboard already! How's that for a low-cost, headless Mac?

3. it really *is* viruses, IE problems, windows stability/security... people are actually *looking* for alternative now (and linux ain't ready, no matter what the zealots want to believe)

Last edited by Yvan256; Nov 21, 2004 at 11:46 PM.
Yvan256 is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 12:44 AM   #10
winmacguy
macrumors 68020
 
winmacguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: New Zealand
might have been a quiet day but it certainly got the discussions going Mudbug.
__________________
With Windows iWork, with Apple iCreate
winmacguy is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 01:01 AM   #11
Nermal
Moderator
 
Nermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Whakatane, New Zealand
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yvan256
I'd take a beige box G5/OS X over an iMac x86/Windows any day. In fact, just sell us a damn G5 motherboard already! How's that for a low-cost, headless Mac?
Yes! Give us a G5 motherboard that can use normal video cards, and I'll be buying one of those instead of the Athlon 64 motherboard I'm getting next week.
Nermal is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 01:35 AM   #12
thatwendigo
macrumors 6502a
 
thatwendigo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Sum, Ergo Sum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yvan256
1. Don't want to sound harsh, but what retail stores? (no, the world doesn't only revolve around the USA. Yes there is stores in other countries, but the TOTAL is under 5, so let's skip it).
How about we put this into some kind of perspective that actually matters, then? The United States, as it's often remarked (even by me), has roughly two to three thirds of the wealth of the world locked up in less than a tenth of the population. In theory, that means that they have to get fewer people interested in order to make more money, and that they have less of a reason to appeal to the low-end market.

Also, though it may not affect your country, the retail stores do seem to correlate to Apple's increasing success. Retail revenues are increasing, after all.

Quote:
2. I just wish there was more Macs that people could actually afford (where's that updated eMac already?) And stop telling me Macs have better value. In the end a lot of people buy the lowest cost computer.
Keep wishing, then, since Apple's already stated that they have no intention of trying to compete at a point lower than the eMac. For all intents and purposes, there's no reason to, either, since the machines that you're talking about are universally crippled in some way. I've been researching them on behalf of a friend who's looking to get a home PC, and when you look at them in retail channels, they almost always have RAM at least a generation back, integrated graphics, Celerons or Athlon XPs (not 64s), and other ridiculous cost-saving measures.

Dell and the other companies that release $499 computers online are doing it with intentionally crippled loss-leaders that you have to upgrade to make useful. Apple sells useful systems out of the box.

Quote:
While Apple won't ever be able to sell 600$CAN computers (though we can still hope), they could at least price their stuff more aggressively (AIO is nice, but people aren't stupid to the point of not being to plug a monitor they *already have*).
Considering that CAD$600 is roughly US$500, Apple would be fools to try to hang in at that point. The hardware would be a joke, to the point that the people who already complain about underpowered macs actually having something to be whining about. Nevermind that the companies which sell machines at that point - Dell, Compaq, HP - are all propped up by some other venture and outside revenues from other sales and still using cheap and unreliable components.

Their equipment is aggressively priced, unless you're building your own hardware and ignorant or hateful enough to completely factor out things like research and design, warranties, support, distribution costs, and other factors that affect Apple more than most OEMs. After all, the vast majority of them just slap together parts from vendors, with little to no actual research on their consumer machines.

Quote:
A lot of people also simply want a Mac for OS X, not for the uber-cool, snob class, nice-looking computer feeling. I'd take a beige box G5/OS X over an iMac x86/Windows any day. In fact, just sell us a damn G5 motherboard already! How's that for a low-cost, headless Mac?
Stupid, in fact.

Part of the Apple experience is the control that they have over the hardware, and the more that's opened up, the less of it they have. This was plain to see when the cloners had to start adding third-party drivers to their hardware, which was the only way they could cut under Apple's costs. The PowerPC is just a more expensive platform in general and people need to learn to deal with that. Quality costs on both sides of the fence, but it costs a bit more (until you get to the high end) on ours. The cost of entry is higher, but you get more for it, and that's just the way it is.
__________________
You can praise them, disagree with them, quote them,
disbelieve them, glorify or vilify them.
About the only thing you canít do is ignore them.
Because they change things.
thatwendigo is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 01:41 AM   #13
thatwendigo
macrumors 6502a
 
thatwendigo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Sum, Ergo Sum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nermal
Yes! Give us a G5 motherboard that can use normal video cards, and I'll be buying one of those instead of the Athlon 64 motherboard I'm getting next week.
"If you give me eighteen G5s in a laptop tommorrow, I'd buy one."

Apple's choice of processor make it basically impossible for you to see x86 graphics cards in use without a change in the BIOS on the card. What you want them to do isn't going to happen, so you might as well go buy your Athlon 64.
__________________
You can praise them, disagree with them, quote them,
disbelieve them, glorify or vilify them.
About the only thing you canít do is ignore them.
Because they change things.
thatwendigo is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 01:55 AM   #14
Nermal
Moderator
 
Nermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Whakatane, New Zealand
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatwendigo
Apple's choice of processor make it basically impossible for you to see x86 graphics cards in use without a change in the BIOS on the card.
Why is it that other PowerPC boards like the Pegasos can use regular Radeons? I don't think the problem lies with the processor.
Nermal is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 02:19 AM   #15
thatwendigo
macrumors 6502a
 
thatwendigo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Sum, Ergo Sum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nermal
Why is it that other PowerPC boards like the Pegasos can use regular Radeons? I don't think the problem lies with the processor.
Evidence, please.

I did a search and the only things I'm finding are that older cards like the Radeon 9200 and 7500 worked on the PegasosI board. There's increasing evidence that PegasosII doesn't do it, and that they don't get full functionality from the cards.

Also, please explain the fact that Pegasos machines are more expensive than comparable macs. I started a thread on this before, but it's still true.
__________________
You can praise them, disagree with them, quote them,
disbelieve them, glorify or vilify them.
About the only thing you canít do is ignore them.
Because they change things.
thatwendigo is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 02:30 AM   #16
Santaduck
macrumors 6502a
 
Santaduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Honolulu
Send a message via ICQ to Santaduck Send a message via AIM to Santaduck
title is a bit off... it was a linux crowd as well...

and what would happen if an intel-compatible OS X was released... in this business universe it's not so much the pro-apple vibe as the anti-XP vibe that is stronger (despite the ipod mania).
Santaduck is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 02:38 AM   #17
thatwendigo
macrumors 6502a
 
thatwendigo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Sum, Ergo Sum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Santaduck
and what would happen if an intel-compatible OS X was released... in this business universe it's not so much the pro-apple vibe as the anti-XP vibe that is stronger (despite the ipod mania).
The death of Apple, that's what. When they were allowing clones, in a much smaller and less piracy-ridden market, Apple lost roughly 35% of their revenue in one year without growing their market share at all. It cannibalized their normal business and made them less money, which would no doubt happen again if they tried it.

Apple would have to sell a ridiculously expensive OS X that nobody would buy, or sell more than 5-6 million copies per quarter in order to make up for their hardware sales. Just as a note, not even Microsoft sells 5 million copies of Windows in a quarter.
__________________
You can praise them, disagree with them, quote them,
disbelieve them, glorify or vilify them.
About the only thing you canít do is ignore them.
Because they change things.
thatwendigo is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 02:52 AM   #18
combatcolin
macrumors 68020
 
combatcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northants, UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatwendigo
"If you give me eighteen G5s in a laptop tommorrow, I'd buy one."

Apple's choice of processor make it basically impossible for you to see x86 graphics cards in use without a change in the BIOS on the card. What you want them to do isn't going to happen, so you might as well go buy your Athlon 64.

The new Amiga MBs use PC standard AGP cards.

Theres a chip on the MB that "tricks" the card into thinking its talking to a PC.
This is done with no performance hits to either the CPU, MB or graphic card.

So if a company that shares some of Apples innovation but has bugger all of the £££££ of Apple can do it?....

Last edited by combatcolin; Nov 22, 2004 at 04:39 AM.
combatcolin is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 04:39 AM   #19
wrldwzrd89
macrumors G4
 
wrldwzrd89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Solon, OH
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatwendigo
Evidence, please.

I did a search and the only things I'm finding are that older cards like the Radeon 9200 and 7500 worked on the PegasosI board. There's increasing evidence that PegasosII doesn't do it, and that they don't get full functionality from the cards.

Also, please explain the fact that Pegasos machines are more expensive than comparable macs. I started a thread on this before, but it's still true.
Open Firmware is to blame for the reason Apple Macs can't use the regular video cards. Odds are that the PegasosI board has a standard PC BIOS in it, which is why it works with regular video cards.
__________________
iMac Intel (Rev H, 27"), 1TB HDD, 16GB RAM, 10.8.4
wrldwzrd89 is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 07:03 AM   #20
rjwill246
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA (often) and Adelaide, OZ
Send a message via AIM to rjwill246
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatwendigo
How about we put this into some kind of perspective that actually matters, then?
About as good a reply as anyone should need. Well done!
rjwill246 is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 09:40 AM   #21
Qunchuy
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatwendigo
Dell and the other companies that release $499 computers online are doing it with intentionally crippled loss-leaders that you have to upgrade to make useful. Apple sells useful systems out of the box.
Counterpoint: Apple's "out of the box" systems become a whole lot more usable after being upgraded with more memory. I don't think one can reasonably argue that they're intentionally crippled or that they're loss-leaders, though.
__________________
qo'mey poSmoH Hol :: language opens worlds
Qunchuy is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 01:04 PM   #22
thatwendigo
macrumors 6502a
 
thatwendigo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Sum, Ergo Sum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrldwzrd89
Open Firmware is to blame for the reason Apple Macs can't use the regular video cards. Odds are that the PegasosI board has a standard PC BIOS in it, which is why it works with regular video cards.
OpenFirmware's official website says that you're wrong.
Among Open Firmware's many features, it provides a machine independent device interface, which can be used to boot plug-in cards without providing OS-specific and/or machine dependent binary programs on the plug-in card. This feature enables plug-in card manufacturers to easily support several independent computer architectures without needing to supply different firmware for each one.

Open Firmware is based on Sun Microsystem's OpenBoot 2.x implementations and complies with ANS (ANSI) Forth. (Information on ANS Forth is provided courtesy of Athena Programming, Inc.) You can also get additional information about Forth and the Forth Interest Group on the World Wide Web at Forth Interest Group Home Page.
The onus is on the card manufacturers, not Apple or the other users of OpenFirmware, who have an easily accessed, transparent, modern standard that would allow their products to be used. They can hardly be blamed if the video card manufacturers are more interested in optimizing for x86 and the DirectX APIs.
__________________
You can praise them, disagree with them, quote them,
disbelieve them, glorify or vilify them.
About the only thing you canít do is ignore them.
Because they change things.
thatwendigo is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 01:07 PM   #23
thatwendigo
macrumors 6502a
 
thatwendigo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Sum, Ergo Sum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qunchuy
Counterpoint: Apple's "out of the box" systems become a whole lot more usable after being upgraded with more memory. I don't think one can reasonably argue that they're intentionally crippled or that they're loss-leaders, though.
Apple also doesn't sell desktops with PC2700 RAM, CD-ROMs, integrated graphics, and other intentionally misleading "features." Dell, just to pick on the most obvious one, used to run a commercial (as recently as two weeks ago) that advertised a $499 computer and said that "Dell PCs use Intel Pentium 4 processors." However, the machine that costs $499 was a Celeron D and not a Pentium 4, hence a loss leader. It's meant to catch your attention and then make you upgrade to something usable.

The fact that RAM makes a mac better doesn't negate the fact that it's a good computer out of the box. The baseline Dell PC is worthless without upgrades in both software and hardware.
__________________
You can praise them, disagree with them, quote them,
disbelieve them, glorify or vilify them.
About the only thing you canít do is ignore them.
Because they change things.
thatwendigo is offline   0
Old Nov 22, 2004, 03:11 PM   #24
wrldwzrd89
macrumors G4
 
wrldwzrd89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Solon, OH
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatwendigo
OpenFirmware's official website says that you're wrong.
Among Open Firmware's many features, it provides a machine independent device interface, which can be used to boot plug-in cards without providing OS-specific and/or machine dependent binary programs on the plug-in card. This feature enables plug-in card manufacturers to easily support several independent computer architectures without needing to supply different firmware for each one.

Open Firmware is based on Sun Microsystem's OpenBoot 2.x implementations and complies with ANS (ANSI) Forth. (Information on ANS Forth is provided courtesy of Athena Programming, Inc.) You can also get additional information about Forth and the Forth Interest Group on the World Wide Web at Forth Interest Group Home Page.
The onus is on the card manufacturers, not Apple or the other users of OpenFirmware, who have an easily accessed, transparent, modern standard that would allow their products to be used. They can hardly be blamed if the video card manufacturers are more interested in optimizing for x86 and the DirectX APIs.
Thanks thatwendigo. I learn something new here every day I visit...
__________________
iMac Intel (Rev H, 27"), 1TB HDD, 16GB RAM, 10.8.4
wrldwzrd89 is offline   0
Old Nov 23, 2004, 07:36 AM   #25
kerb
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lancashire UK
Case in point

I bought a 1.3 Ghz 12" PB a few months back for £1050 (cram and jam/edu discount).
This out of the box included the easiest ever OS to use, iLife 04, and a powerful computer in a small compact form.

My friend buys a 3Ghz-ish Pentium4 HT Toshiba Satellite laptop. 15", bulky, unwieldy, loud. Came out of the box with MORE RAM than mine and cost £900. More RAM and bigger screen? Faster processor? Well 2 weeks after being online, installing all the NECCESSARY virus scanners, spyware blockers etc. etc. his computer was at an absolute crawl. iTunes (credit to him he uses an iPod) took 45 seconds to load which a library of just over 1000 songs. I had to spend about an hour trying to perk it up by deleting an absolute crapload of stuff that was running in the background. It's bearable now but still slower than mine.

Can he carry his around? No, it's a big bulky beast.
Can I carry mine around? Yes, despite it being made of metal.

Windows machines are not cheap because they don't compete anywhere near the performance of Apple hardware and OS X. If anything they are very overpriced and need alot spending on them to keep them maintained.
__________________
12" PowerBook G4 1.33Ghz 768MB RAM
Mac Mini 1.25Ghz 512MB RAM
20GB Clickwheel iPod
512MB iPod Shuffle
kerb is offline   0


 
MacRumors Forums > Archive > Archives of Old Posts > MacBytes.com News Discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Samsung Bashes the iPad, Microsoft Surface and Kindle in New Ad MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 677 Apr 12, 2014 09:50 PM
Samsung Bashes iPhone Screen Size and iPad Multitasking in Two New Anti-Apple Ads MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 542 Feb 20, 2014 12:13 PM
Microsoft Bashes Apple's iWork Software, New iPads MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 1153 Dec 30, 2013 08:51 PM
Is that Al Gore in the crowd at the keynote? mellofello iPhone 3 Sep 12, 2012 10:55 PM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:11 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC