1.5TB storage... in a beige G3 tower? ÜBER UPGRADING

Discussion in 'Apple Collectors' started by im_to_hyper, Dec 7, 2006.

  1. im_to_hyper macrumors 65816

    im_to_hyper

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Location:
    Glendale, California, USA
    #1
    OK, so I have a friend who has a beige tower we've been slowly upgrading... just for fun. obviously there are newer and nicer machines out there.

    well, so far its just the standard:

    300MHz
    768MB RAM
    6GB HD
    CD-ROM

    Here is what we have:

    Spare Apple Superdrive
    USB 2.0/FireWire PCI Card
    ATA PCI Card
    ATI Rage 128 card... might buy a better graphics card -- reccomendations?
    750GB HD

    We would like to put this all on here, along with perhaps an extra 750GB HD for a total of 1.5TB of storage to use this as a network file storage computer, and maybe attach an external 320GB HD or two.

    Yes, right now we really don't need that much, but who knows when MacTheRipper for HD DVDs will be coming out ;) Otherwise regular MTR is fine, too....

    Anyway, Other World Computing has some software that helps OS X recognize bigger drives on the beiges... would this work in here, do you think? Also, what sort of G4 upgrade would be best? Otherwise, would there be a performance increase buy overclocking this one?
     
  2. CanadaRAM macrumors G5

    CanadaRAM

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2004
    Location:
    On the Left Coast - Victoria BC Canada
    #2
    You're gonna fry that machine's power supply... it's rated at 171 W output max...
     
  3. im_to_hyper thread starter macrumors 65816

    im_to_hyper

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Location:
    Glendale, California, USA
    #3
    Ewww... that won't be good. Do they sell higher capacity power supplies for these?

    Most of the parts were free, and there is major nostalgia for this system so we're just wanting everything to go into here.

    What about no CPU upgrade? Would the power supply be OK without that, do you think? Its not like both drives would be revved up high all the time, and the Superdrive won't be used often.
     
  4. Spock macrumors 68000

    Spock

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2002
    Location:
    Vulcan
    #4
    You could just add a second atx powersupply i did that with my old PC servers
    raid.
     
  5. madmax_2069 macrumors 6502a

    madmax_2069

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Location:
    Springfield Ohio
    #5
    the Beige G3 will take a ATX PSU or apple PSU, there is a little jumper infront of PCI slot 1 or 3 which changes it to accept a ATX PSU or a apple PSU, the Beige G3 AIO has the apple PSU and the other 2 models (DT, MT) take a ATX PSU.

    my Beige G3 AIO don't have stellar spec's (in my Sig) but it has 10.4.8 installed running fine. the best card to buy would be the ATI Radeon 9200 Mac Edition PCI 128mb vram if your only going to use OS X ( cause the 9200 don't work right in the Beige G3 in OS 9.x) the next best card would be the (original) ATI Radeon Mac Edition PCI 32mb vram, and the 3rd best is the ATI Radeon 7000 Mac Edition PCI 32mb vram, i named the fastest to slowest in that order. but if your going to run any games under OS 9 stay away from the 9200 cause it will lock up the system.

    the 9200 will only work fine under OS X in the Beige G3 for reasons i don't know but ATI has it on its site in its knowledge base. the orignal radeon Mac Edition PCI card will be just as good as the 9200 for most games unless it requires a large amount of vram
     
  6. ReanimationLP macrumors 68030

    ReanimationLP

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2005
    Location:
    On the moon.
    #6
    Screw the video card, and get a 10/100 Ethernet card, or better yet, Gigabit.

    10 megabit ethernet is painfully slow.
     
  7. im_to_hyper thread starter macrumors 65816

    im_to_hyper

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Location:
    Glendale, California, USA
    #7
    That would be very, very useful advice, especially if large amounts of files are going to be transfered here... hmmm.... as far as the power supply issue goes, if I don't have a power-hungry graphics card I may be well off there as well.
     
  8. Eidorian macrumors Penryn

    Eidorian

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Location:
    Indianapolis
  9. im_to_hyper thread starter macrumors 65816

    im_to_hyper

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Location:
    Glendale, California, USA
    #9
    I was actually thinking a 10/100 since those would be like, an actual technical feasiblity.
     
  10. madmax_2069 macrumors 6502a

    madmax_2069

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Location:
    Springfield Ohio
    #10
    a ATI Radeon 7000 PCI , USB2.0/Firewire PCI Card and i installed my apple 10/100 ethernet pci card to test it and there is no problems that i see. but i do have a AIO and its PSU is rated at 300W that could make a diffrence. all works great. i do have 1 USB 2.0 powered hub . i dont use the firewire at all cause i have no firewire devices yet. but if you eliminate a USB device from drawling power from the card itself then you will have no problems with useing to much power with all those cards installed.

    apple has documents about the beige G3 showing the max pci power consumption per card. i think its around 45-50 watt's max to all 3 pci cards 15, 15, 15, or two at 25, 15 or two at 25, 25. i may be off a bit been a wile since ive seen the documents. just as long as you dont over do the pci's power limit then your fine. thats why i use a powered USB hub to keep stuff from drawling to much power from the card. not to mention you gain a few usb slots. if you have firewire devices then get a powered firewire hub to do the same thing. these are not expensive. you can get these at allot of places that sell's computer hardware
     
  11. SkyBell macrumors 604

    SkyBell

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Location:
    Texas, unfortunately.
    #11
    Have you used Dial-up?

    not fun
     
  12. Maxwell Smart macrumors 6502a

    Maxwell Smart

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2006
    #12
    You might not like this idea, but a much more practical idea would be to just buy a G4 sawtooth and put those upgrades into it. You can find one for under $100 if you look around. Also, since a good G4 processor upgrade would probably cost that much anyway, it would probably be a smarter idea (especially if you can find an inexpensive dual G4 model.) Besides the obvious the G4 has a faster system bus, faster ethernet, built in Firewire/USB, built in support for tiger and most likely leopard, faster Built-in ATA, a MUCH nicer case etc etc.
     
  13. macEfan macrumors 65816

    macEfan

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Location:
    Forbidden, you do not have access to that server
    #13
    I thought the tower version of the beige g3 had a slightly better PSU then the desktop one... It should be ok with the hard drives alone, but I reccomend finding an old PC or mac PSU without softpower so you can just flip a switch and turn on extra drives, etc. If you want to be really cool, swap the g3 beige's logic board with a g3 B&W or early g4 one. It would have onboard 10/100 ethernet, and firewire and USB. I know it is possible to make this mod work, as I have a friend who attemped this himself.

    Good luck and happy vintage computing!

    PS: What your trying to attempt is reminding me of my 9600 mass upgrade project I took on a few years ago. Mine is nowhere near as fast as yours is going to be, but its quite advanced for a mac of its day...
    Mine is a workroup server 9650. Its got 768mb ram, five 4gb hard drives, 3 CD rom drives, and a zip drive. Additionally, I installed a rage 128, firewire/USB card, and a dual channel RAID controller.

    Its a great computer for Flash animation and photoshop 7.0 work!
     
  14. im_to_hyper thread starter macrumors 65816

    im_to_hyper

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Location:
    Glendale, California, USA
    #14
    Hey there!

    Thanks for all the reccomendations!

    She gave me $650 to upgrade her computer since it has those "nostalgic purposes" I mentioned previously.

    Yes, some of us out there love our old computer so much that we will do anything for it!

    SO... I am thinking of letting her use the beige, upgrade it will smaller specc'ed upgrades, then use a Sawtooth as her main computer for the other room. That way she will have then a grand total of 2TB storage in her house :p :p
     
  15. CanadaRAM macrumors G5

    CanadaRAM

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2004
    Location:
    On the Left Coast - Victoria BC Canada
    #15
    Yeah - 171Watts IS the tower one (got two of those towers standing beside me as I type... )
     
  16. macEfan macrumors 65816

    macEfan

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Location:
    Forbidden, you do not have access to that server
    #16
    wow.. I had no clue... I just assumed the tower g3 had the same power supplies as the heavy duty 9600... guess not :D
     
  17. jhu macrumors 6502a

    jhu

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2004
    #17
    who's "she"? putting $650 into such an old computer isn't the wisest use of that money. but have fun with that
     
  18. madmax_2069 macrumors 6502a

    madmax_2069

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Location:
    Springfield Ohio
    #18
    when the Beige G3 systems came out they was suppose to be a low end system but apple found out the G3 systems was allot more powerful that the 604E system's so apple made the Beige G3 systems there flag ship system until the newer G3 systems came out.

    so the way apple intended the Beige G3 system they didn't change the spec's of the system and since the DT and MT didn't have a internal monitor they only gave them enough power to deal with what was out back then. the AIO Beige G3 has a 300 watt PSU cause it has a internal CRT it has to power.

    but like i said before the Beige G3 can take a ATX PSU or a Apple PSU and can be changed around to accept what type of PSU by moving a jumper that id behind the last PCI slot. a normal ATX PSU will fit nicely in the MT or DT Beige G3 and you can find one that is way more powerful that what is in it now for a cheap price and you will not have to change around anything cause the DT and MT use a ATX PSU . its the AIO that uses a Apple PSU and has to be changed to accept the ATX PSU.

    now if you can find a USB/Firewire PCI card that has a input to plug power from the PSU into that will put less strain on the PCI bus. even tho if you buy one that dont have one you can but a powered USB and a Firewire hub which will not allow the card to draw power from the PCI bus as much and will keep you in spec. but you will have to watch out what type of USB/Firewire card you get cause some have problems in a Beige G3 system but will work fine in other newer Mac's.

    some chipsets will draw to much power from the pci slot even tho nothing is connected to it. the USB chipset has to be OHIC compliant in order to work properly in the Beige G3. there is a great forum on apple discussions that is dedicated to the Beige G3 system and will have allot of information you will need to max out this system with less hassle

    http://discussions.apple.com/category.jspa?categoryID=110&start=0
     
  19. dpaanlka macrumors 601

    dpaanlka

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2004
    Location:
    Illinois
    #19
    It was realized how powerful the 750 class processors were well before the "G3" systems were designed. Neither the machines that shipped, nor their predecessors who shared the same case, were ever considered "low end" machines.
     
  20. madmax_2069 macrumors 6502a

    madmax_2069

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Location:
    Springfield Ohio
    #20
    oops did i say when, i meant before the Beige G3 came out the G3 was supost to be the low end CPU AKA under the 604e which was suppose to be the high end . but apple found out the G3 outperformed the 604e in every way. so they ditched the 604e in the Beige and made it a G3 system only. of you look on the Beige G3's motherboard by the zif socket you can tell where the 604e CPU socket was going to be.

    but apple only changed the Beige into a G3 system only and kept the rest of the system as it was when it was being developed AKA case PSU and other parts.

    sorry dan for not being correct when i posted above
     
  21. im_to_hyper thread starter macrumors 65816

    im_to_hyper

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Location:
    Glendale, California, USA
    #21
    "She" is my friend who has some extra cash I guess and wants to spend it this way.

    Reading the other posts about the beige history here has been helpful and informative... I think trying to find the right power supply will be a bit of a hassle, but hopefully it will happen.
     
  22. CanadaRAM macrumors G5

    CanadaRAM

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2004
    Location:
    On the Left Coast - Victoria BC Canada
    #22
    I'd be interested to know if you have any backup for that, because I think that's a myth...
     
  23. dpaanlka macrumors 601

    dpaanlka

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2004
    Location:
    Illinois
    #23
    No, it's very true. There was a second "third generation" processor, based on the 604. It was about as hot as a G5 and only slightly more powerful than the 603-based G3. A very quick google search brings up a lot, with this as an early result:

    http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/ppc-2.ars

    I've read longer and more detailed histories of the chips that go into greater detail about it.

    EDIT: Here is more...

    From Wikipedia:

    EDIT #2: Still more...

    EDIT #3: Some interesting notes from Freescale:

     
  24. CanadaRAM macrumors G5

    CanadaRAM

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2004
    Location:
    On the Left Coast - Victoria BC Canada
    #24
    Thanks D.

    I still say that the characterization is offbase though.

    The poster said that the G3 was the successor chip to the 603e and supposed to be under the 604e -- rather, according to the articles, it was supposed to be under the successor chip to the 604e, which ended up never being developed.
     
  25. madmax_2069 macrumors 6502a

    madmax_2069

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Location:
    Springfield Ohio
    #25
    >>>warning<<< don't use any drug that makes you sleepy wile reading this post possable cause of KB or mouse strangulation
    or KB face can happen

    yea, trying to follow how the cpu's was planned to be released can be a bit confusing when you see how they really was released. the G3 was based from the 603/603e and the G4 is based from the 604/604e CPU.

    when i first ever looked at this mobo in my Beige i was always wondering what the place by the cpu where something was suppose to go but never got put there cause they decided to use the G3 cpu instead. but anyway it was for the 604/604e cpu socket i then learned from some site (cant remember where now) but it told that the Beige was suppose to use the 603/604 cpu's but end up using the G3 cpu.

    but if you look in openfirmware in the Beige G3 with a G4 cpu installed it tries to use info for the 60?. i know cause i put a G4 cpu in this from a yikes G4 it ran at at the set speed of 400mhz but since there is no info in the rom for the G4 it used the info for the 60? which has different addresses than the G4 has so it wont detect the L2 cache and it only sees 32kB of the 64kB of L1 cache (which is will use 16 kB instruction and 16 kB data). only if there was a way to add the info in the rom or open firmware for the G4 so it would properly work without using software to enable the L2 cache (which i tried but ended up having a extension conflict wile loading the extension atiaccelerator extension in OS 9) never tried OS X

    but anyway back on topic, any new info about the path you are going to take upgrade the Beige G3. cause there are allot of options available. i bought memory from DMS for the B&W G3 system and works great in the Beige G3. a stick of 256mb is $26 USD a piece and are PC100 CL2 168 (16 chip design) is what the Beige G3 has to use in order to see the full amount of the 256mb chip. if you get the 256mb chip with only 8 chips you will only see 128mb of the 256mb. the memory for the B&W G3 is fast enuff that it will allow you to overclock the system bus. and will still allow you to reach the max of 768mb of ram.

    now you can buy a used G3 cpu out of a B&W G3 from ebay (like i did) a 450mhz G3 with 1mb of l2 cache for $40-$50 USD a wile ago. but now the price of them have gone down allot.

    the Beige G3 will handle a HDD of 128gb (but there are only 120gb out there which rides on the boarder line hitting the limit of 128gb) i bought my western digital SE 120gb hdd from amazon brand new in the clear plastic box for $57 USD.

    now optical drive on this system can be hit or miss. i bought PC version of the Pioneer DVR-110D for $40 but works in a Mac (there is also apple branded version of the drive which is better to buy cause you will be able to boot OS X install dvd's or cd's) my version of the drive wont allow me to boot any version of the OS X cd or dvd since its not apple branded.

    at first in O S9.2.2 with the Pioneer drive i could not put the system to sleep with HDD sleep enabled cause when i would wake the system up it would lock up. i found a apple cd/dvd driver replacement called intech cd/dvd speedtools 6.0 which fixes the problem. but i still had no burn support for the drive in OS 9.2.2 untill some one modded the PioneerCDR authoring extension and now i have burn support with iTunes and finder burning.

    i had to install the stock apple 24x cd rom that came with the Beige G3 to load up jaguar ( also had to do that when i installed tiger with the help of xpostfacto) but jaguar used the drive without a hitch but still no burn support until i installed patchburn, all went great.

    tiger 10.4.8 on the other hand don't want to use the Pioneer drive ( it will work some times and some times will start to work but fail out causing what ever app that was using the drive to lockup) and had to force quit the app. if i try to burn in tiger it will always fail, when i try to copy files from the cd to the hdd in tiger it will fail, i think all this has something to do with xpostfacto cause i put the Pioneer drive into my friends digital audio G4 that was running tiger 10.4.8 and it used it fine and burned with it. now in 10.4.7 the pioneer would hardly mount anything or work at all. but the 10.4.8 update made the drive more stable and able to work to a extent.

    sorry all for the real long winded post. but i was just sharing info about my upgrading experiences with my Beige G3, which i hope helps him to better select the upgrades. its best to make sure if there is a apple version of the optical drive to get it (like my Pioneer DVR-110D wasn't). OWC sells the apple branded versions of the drives most of the time. and there is some pc only drives that will boot the OS X install cd's or dvd's.

    now a good video card will still be needed to get any good performance gains in games or GPU intensive task's (AKA OS X) cause the onboard will be a pain in the butt in OS X, and any games will run real slow no matter the CPU. i bought a ATI Radeon 7000 Mac Edition PCI for my Beige G3 not realizing that the original Radeon Mac Edition was a faster card all the way around even tho it was older. but they can be found for $20-$30 USD on ebay. the ATI Radeon 9200 will work in a Beige G3 but only in OS X is it stable cause the 9200 in the Beige G3 in OS 9.x wont run hardly anything that requires a GPU to render (it will lock the system up if you try).

    but you can get this system up to a nice speed with that amount of money you have to put into it. sonnet makes a G4 1ghz upgrade for this and there is another company that makes a G3 1ghz or 1.1ghz cpu upgrade but that will take half of the money you said you have to spend on it.

    another thing is USB/firewire pci cards. they can be real tricky as i stated above. and the best place to go to ask on what will and what wont work in the Beige G3 can be found here http://discussions.apple.com/category.jspa?categoryID=110&start=0
    happy upgrading

    and again sorry for the long winded post. i tried to get my spelling correct and to break up the post a bit so it is easier to read ( i know it will make some people fall asleep)
     

Share This Page