2 Button Mouse?

[biotech9]

How retarded...

I guess thats a trollish title up there, but i don't care. That is a retarded statement.

Watch me, watch the MAGIC that i do with my powers of logic.


(1) I have money.

(2) I give said money to Apple, in exchange for a Dual 2 Ghz G5 and 23 inch display.

(3) I get Top notch, ultra sexy hardware, all cutting edge, except for one of the key parts, which is also dirt cheap compared to the rest.

now what?

If i crack open my G5 and see a Pentium with mmx inside, do i say "Aaaah shucks,looks like the free gift G5 has ben exchanged for a free gift 486!".


The other retarded point you made is that Apple cannot make a mouse that satisfies everyone.

Do apple make laptops to satisfy everyone? No. but they have a choice of cheap, tough iBook, or expensive powerful PB.

Why is there no equivalent in the mice?

why not a 1 button as standard, and for an extra 20 euros (That second button is so expensive), a 4 button with scroll wheel?


Why not? they have choice in Every other part of their line up.

If you are going to reply, In addition to

(1) it confuses people
(2) ctrl-click is just as good

I also want to hear no nonsensical

(3) its a free gift (albeit a crappy one)
(4) get a 3rd party mouse!

Any valid points are of course welcome. If you can think of one, I can't.



(and P.S. I mean no offence by the retarded accusation, but Jesus! what a moronic statement! Mac Zealot material)

 

[MacBandit]

Re: How retarded...

Originally posted by biotech9
..........If you are going to reply, In addition to

(1) it confuses people
(2) ctrl-click is just as good

I also want to hear no nonsensical

(3) its a free gift (albeit a crappy one)
(4) get a 3rd party mouse!

Any valid points are of course welcome. If you can think of one, I can't.



(and P.S. I mean no offence by the retarded accusation, but Jesus! what a moronic statement! Mac Zealot material)

If you don't want to hear reason and our point of view that is fine just accept out differing views and drop the issue. Otherwise don't put statements like this in your response saying I don't want to hear this or that argument.

The simple fact is input devices are a very personal item that are cheap with lots of options. The simple fact that unlike a more expensive device there are lots of options and there is no way Apple can hope to satisfy all users requests in such a device just like the computers. Just read these boards for a while and you will realize that some of these users wouldn't be happy with a G20 processor running at 5000 GHz.

 

[iMeowbot]

Antiquated?

I find this "one button is old fashioned" reasoning kind of interesting, because the real antique mice had 2 and 3 buttons: the model Engelbart patented, and the pre-Mac Logitech mice that ended up on AT&T machines. The Smalltalk environment, Alto and Star interfaces that that so heavily influenced the Mac's GUI all used 2 and 3 button mice as well.

Obviously there are some people who vocally disagree with the decision Apple made, but it was a deliberate change from the GUIs that came before. In other words, it might be more fruitful to ask why those second and third buttons were eliminated, rather than why they aren't now being added.

 

[biotech9]

Re: Re: How retarded...

Apple could at least supply more than 1 option. (Wireless/Wired doesnt count).

And i don't want to hear nonsensical stupid comments, i don't mind valid points. but when i hear somebody telling me how their grandmother gets frightened and wets herself whenever she sees a mouse with two buttons, it makes me want to hit that old lady with a mallet.

There is no possible way to argue that a second mouse button is a confusing object, people who find it more confusing than holding down a keyboard key while clicking need to be kept in rooms with soft walls and kept away from scissors.

If Apple supply one button mice because they are less confusing, they should start remove those horribly confusing keys on the keyboard and replace them with 4 buttons.

Each button would have a picture of a Farm yard animal, and when you press the face it makes the corresponding animal sound.

Sound stupid? I hope so.

 

[MacBandit]

Why doesn't Apple have a track ball and a drawing pad and CRT monitors and they're own printers and scanners and speakers. Come on give it a rest.

 

[biotech9]

Excellent reply! i am stuck for words

Originally posted by MacBandit
Why doesn't Apple have a track ball and a drawing pad and CRT monitors and they're own printers and scanners and speakers. Come on give it a rest.

What a wonderful non-sequitur!

why doesn't apple turn into a banana and fly into the sun?

what a statment!

Apple don't sell CRTs, Or Track balls, or Drawing pads, or Printer or scanners.

Here is a simple intelligence test, aimed specifically at you, because I am worried your IQ is so low that maybe the 1-button mouse/no-scissors plan may be best for you.

(Question) Do Apple make and sell Mouses?


If you answered no, then maybe you should tell me to shut up, and then tell me that 2 buttons is GAY, or too confusing, then say ctrl clicking is much faster anyway.


Or post a second non-sequitur if you like.




If you answered yes, then congratulations, now try and stay on topic and keep talking those pills your Doctor prescribed.

 

[vwcruisn]

Re: Re: I think this really sucks

Originally posted by MacBandit
Because the simple fact is no matter what mouse Apple provides with it, it will not satisfy everyone.

I wonder how many more people would be satisfied with a 2 button mouse? You are rite... you cant please em all... but shouldnt you please the majority?

 

[MacBandit]

Re: Re: Re: I think this really sucks

Originally posted by vwcruisn
I wonder how many more people would be satisfied with a 2 button mouse? You are rite... we cant please em all... but shouldnt we please the majority?

Prove to me that the majority of Apple computer purchasers want a 2 button mouse or even care about such a thing when they make the purchase and I'll will resign from the discussion.

 

[MacBandit]

Re: Excellent reply! i am stuck for words

Originally posted by biotech9
What a wonderful non-sequitur!

why doesn't apple turn into a banana and fly into the sun?

what a statment!

Apple don't sell CRTs, Or Track balls, or Drawing pads, or Printer or scanners.

Here is a simple intelligence test, aimed specifically at you, because I am worried your IQ is so low that maybe the 1-button mouse/no-scissors plan may be best for you.

(Question) Do Apple make and sell Mouses?


If you answered no, then maybe you should tell me to shut up, and then tell me that 2 buttons is GAY, or too confusing, then say ctrl clicking is much faster anyway.


Or post a second non-sequitur if you like.




If you answered yes, then congratulations, now try and stay on topic and keep talking those pills your Doctor prescribed.

You're arguing about a matter of $20 and you're calling me an idiot. Come on if you want to start name calling and bring this down to a 3rd grade level I already know who has the lower intelligence quotient.

 

[biotech9]

Its my cash you fool, If you think 20 quid is nothing, please send it to me. The saying does go "A fool and his money are soon parted", not "a fool worries about 20 quid, its nothing, plus he likes 1 button mice".


As for proving more people prefer 2 button mice, Go and look at the poll results on macrumors main site. I should imagine by now the "3rd party 2 button or more" bar is heavily in the lead.


Then make good on your promise and retire from this thread.


If anyone else has a reason for not providing a two button mouse, please do reply.

And if anyone can point out why, if the matter is ONLY about 20 euros, Apple don't just provide the bloody mice that the majority want. If it is so cheap, what is stopping them?

 

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by biotech9
Its my cash you fool, If you think 20 quid is nothing, please send it to me. The saying does go "A fool and his money are soon parted", not "a fool worries about 20 quid, its nothing, plus he likes 1 button mice".


As for proving more people prefer 2 button mice, Go and look at the poll results on macrumors main site. I should imagine by now the "3rd party 2 button or more" bar is heavily in the lead.


Then make goo don your promise and retire from this thread.


If anyone else has a reason for not providing a two mutton mouse, please do reply.

And if anyone can point out why, if the matter is ONLY about 20 euros, Apple don't just provide the bloody mice that the majority want. If it is so cheap, what is stopping them?

That is in no way an accurate poll. The people that make it to this page already know enough about computers to know about multi-button mice. An accurate poll would be one done by Apple at the point of purchase of every computer they sell over the next year.

I'm sorry but if you can afford a thousand dollars for a computer then you can certainly afford a mouse of your choice. The point is no matter what Apple provides a person will almost always be better off shopping for a mouse that fits them and they're work flow. What I'm trying to say is I think Apple plain and simply expects the end user to eventually upgrade as they're experience increases so they include a mouse that fits the lowest common denominator. The newbie.

Knock off the personal attacks or get lost.

 

[ethernet76]

There already is an alternative to the second button, keyboard shortcuts.

The mouse is suppose to be simple and easy to use. The keyboard, not so much. I could probably get away with out using a mouse, but for some things it's easier. Just as I could probably get away with using only a mouse (except for writing). Beginners are going to see two buttons and wonder what the second one is for. Sort of like how most users wonder what the print screen button does when it actually doesn't print the screen.

If users were truely "advanced" they'd simply remember the keyboard shortcuts because they're quicker than using a second mouse button anyway.

In windows the only reason I use a second mouse button is for gaming, and even then it's not all that useful. As for the scrollwheel, it's called pagedown or the down arrow. Scroll wheels are erratic an uncomfortable.

As for a design change I'dlike to see, trackpad built right into the keyboard(with optional use of pen thingy). To the right of the keypad. While it wouldn't be great for detail work without the pen. It'd be easier than a mouse, no moving it all over your desktop.

 

[biotech9]

at least you stuck to the topic this time

I don't believe Apple expect you to buy the PC and then go shop for the "perfect mouse" for you.

The reason is this, Apple make the most incredibly perfect one button mouse ever made.

The current optical mouse, is a beautiful work of art, it is Sublime! I can't get over how perfect the design is, its incredible!

So, if why make such an incredibly expensive mouse if you are making it, KNOWING that most people will throw it away.


Therefore Apple do not want people to get rid of the 1 button mouse, they want you to use it.

And as for you saying that people who can make it to this poll know enough about PCs to use multi button mice. I mean HOLY COW!!!!

Its not rocket science to naviagte to this site. You are not "Elite" because you know how to right click or type "www.macrumors.com" into a browser. I spent 4 years at college learning how to clone things and alter the basic genetic structure of all living things. So perhaps ai am a super intelligent member of mankind, but i think you are being delusional if you think the number of people that don't know how to figure out a second button is anything but insignificant, especially in the pro computer market that Apple cater to.

Admit it! this one button mouse only crap is a personal stigma of one "Steve Jobs", The man has something against 2nd buttons. Defending his idiosyncrasies is just plain dumb. Just because Apple make incredibly nice stuff, doesnt mean they can't make mistakes.

 

[MacBandit]

Re: at least you stuck to the topic this time

Originally posted by biotech9
And as for you saying that people who can make it to this poll know enough about PCs to use multi button mice. I mean HOLY COW!!!!

Its not rocket science to naviagte to this site. You are not "Elite" because you know how to right click or type "www.macrumors.com" into a browser. I spent 4 years at college learning how to clone things and alter the basic genetic structure of all living things. So perhaps ai am a super intelligent member of mankind, but i think you are being delusional if you think the number of people that don't know how to figure out a second button is anything but insignificant, especially in the pro computer market that Apple cater to.

I am in no way saying that I am or you are or anyone is intelligent if they make it this far. When was the last time you helped out a begging computer user. I mean the type that thinks a computer is for playing solitaire? Those people can't operate a mouse or a keyboard those are the people that need a touch screen interface not multi-button mice.

Do you really think the Apple mouse costs them a lot to make? I think it probably cost $.10 if that. Yes it's pretty but beyond that it's not much more then a cheap run of the mill off the shelf $10 or less special. Apple markets there computer to beginners and professionals. Beginners have no need for a keyboard let alone multiple buttons. Professionals have certain needs and will most likely be getting a mouse or another form of input device that fits their needs.

 

[maka]

amazing!

reading this topic is amazing How violent is this going to get over such a small thing?

First time I saw a Mac (A Classic) I instantly fell in love with it's simplicity in design, and that's what the one button mouse is. It's simple and it works. I'd hate it if apple would stop giving them.

I want a one button mouse not because I can't use a 2 or 3 button one, but because I LIKE the one button mouse. ok? It's not about not being able to understand the complex usage of more that 2 buttons.

I also agree that as long as Apple gives a one button mouse with their computers, 3 party developers will keep making programs with better and simpler inferfaces, which is good.

And I'm talking from the perspective of a professional user. I work with ProTools, and I've got one hand in the mouse and the other on the keyboard, because the FASTEST way to work is using the keyboard shortcuts, and it doesn't bother me one bit having to ocasionally press Control or Command for some actions, because my thumb is already there. Of course, this is my personal situation here...

Ah! whoever said the Apple mouse is crapy hasn't used one very long... I've never (really never) have had the need to replace an Apple mouse. They are tough and they function perfectly well.

 

[MacBandit]

Re: amazing!

Originally posted by maka
Ah! whoever said the Apple mouse is crapy hasn't used one very long... I've never (really never) have had the need to replace an Apple mouse. They are tough and they function perfectly well.

I never said the Apple mouse was crappy simply that there is nothing special about it to reason that it's an extraordinarily expensive piece of equipment.

 

[biotech9]

I paid my way through college by working as an Admin in 2 internet cafes, i have helped some of the worlds most stupid people and their pissing AOL. But i have only met 2 out of the tens of thousands that passed through those cafe dors during the four years i worked there that could not use the 3 button scroll wheel mice there.


One was old american guy who tried to touch the screen to get AOL going, and the other was an old woman, who lifted up the mouse and started waving it through the air.

People are not stupid, especially ( I say again!), those who use the pro tools, that are Mac PCs.

As for Keyboard short cuts, yes, they are definately the quickest way around PCs, both windows and Mac. And there are millions on both Operating systems.

But that is no excuse for retarding the mouse. Why not remove it all together?


Lets overview the points thus far...

(1) The cost to Apple of making an OPTIONAL 2+ button mouse is neglible

(2) There is a market for these mice among the pro elite hackers who can understand the magic of a second button

(3) there is NO REASON why there should not be a 2 button mouse.


(you could even hide it on the apple website, so people dont accidentally order it and then **** themselves when they see the second button)


Well?????

 

[jaedreth]

Two button mouse

I've not only used Macs since 7th grade, I've *fixed* them since 8th grade. I worked at Apple for 3 years.

I now work for an ISP whose main customer base is Windows users.

You would not believe how often I hear "Is that right click or left click?"

The largest percentage of Windows users, consumers, don't have a clue on the right mouse button or the scroll wheel. However, Windows is targeted at power users. The original core of the os, DOS, was for computer experts only. Windows only developed so that novices could use it, not use it well. And thus the very lucrative markets of technical support and IT were made, shaping the industry into the monstrosity it is today.

Apple is catering to the lowest common denomenator. Computer users who don't know how to use computers. This market makes up the largest percentage of Mac and PC users, because this market makes up the largest percentage of the overall market.

Apple makes computers as easy to use *as possible* for these users, while still offering us powerusers things to sink our teeth into. Windows slaps on a semblance of surface friendliness to hide its complexity, and if something goes wrong, it's time for an expensive call or trip to a specialist because there is no way a user could figure out how to do it themselves, unless they were trained or were already very geeky in that respect.

Apple will never ship a two button mouse. Never. Stop getting your hopes up.

Apple's position and policy (I know I worked there, tier 2 support) is that if you desire such functionality, purchase a third party product. They will likely meet your needs better anyways.

It comes free with the computer after all.

The operating system is not designed for such a mouse, why would they ship one that you have to open up a confusing system pane and assign tasks to it that you're not even sure you'd ever use on a mouse?

I have a microsoft intellimouse at home for my iBook, and truly the only thing I use the rightclick for is Diablo. If I remember. It's so natural for me to hit the command key before regular clicking, I often forget to rightclick. And the side buttons I have programmed for copy and paste, since I couldn't think of anything else to make them. I only use the thumbball, and I got it because it was cheaper than the apple mouse I wanted. I still use the built in trackpad far more.

Jaedreth

 

[biotech9]

I know its sad, but i took the 2 minutes neccesary to create this...


http://www.petitiononline.com/macmice/petition.html

Please do sign! Even if you hate 2 button mice and they make you cry with confusion.

 

[biotech9]

IT DOES NOT COME FREE WITH THE PC.

You PAY for it, the power cable is not a free add on, neither is the power supply or the CPU, or the keyboard. They are part of what you pay for.


And since when is opening a SYSTEM PREFERANCE PANE COMPLICATED???

you guys are NUTS, talk about delusional. If opening the system preferances is confusing, how do you handle opening the fridge, or programming your VCR. How do these imaginary confused people put in thier IP address or set thier time and date?

And don't even jokingly pretend Apple aim for the retarded set of PC users.

(not "Confused", if you can't handle a system preferance, you are below average intelligence)

Apple have a niche market, if they aimed at the stupid, judging by the replies i got here today, they would have a majority market share.

Apple aim at the pro market, the Photoshop users, the Cubase users, the BlastX users.

And OS X is designed for 2 button mice as much as XP or 2 K is. there are contectual menus everywhere, and right click brings them up.

 

[maka]

Originally posted by biotech9

People are not stupid, especially ( I say again!), those who use the pro tools, that are Mac PCs.

I meant Pro Tools, the Digital Audio Workstation. That's what I use the mac for professionally, and I've never felt the need of more than one button. As I said, a second (or more) button would even slow me down, because for serious work, at least in my case, the shortcuts plus a one button mouse are PERFECT.

And I still think that Apple should keep to the one button mouse, as it ensures a simpler, and less cluttering interface.

Originally posted by MacBandit

I never said the Apple mouse was crappy simply that there is nothing special about it to reason that it's an extraordinarily expensive piece of equipment.

Sorry, I wasn't anwering to your post... you've been saying the most reasonable things

edit: BTW, the poll here shows 30% use the one button mouse, and as was said, users here are not the "regular" users... so...

 

[maxtrax]

Re: So much anger!

Originally posted by reedm007
First off, arn, thanks for always being a voice of reason on here. It's amazing how passionate people get both ways...

This topic has been argued over and over again. I don't think this is Steve Jobs'doing at all -- as was already posted on this board, NeXT DID use multi-button mice. I'd seriously doubt that Steve is personally opposed to them, which doesn't give much credibility to this (albeit page 2) article posting.

At any rate, as a HCI major, I feel strongly for the argument of a one-button mouse by default, although I'd certainly not be against differemt options. Let's look at this from a UI perspective, and not from a "my grandma can't use 2 buttons":

2 BUTTON MICE LEAD TO BAD UI DESIGN:
This is inherent in windows software design. They assume all users will have 2 button mice, so you often have commands in contextual menus that don't exist elsewhere. This is simply a horrible idea. I know Apple's UI Guidelines say not to do this, but since when have all companies followed all of Apple's UI guidelines? Fact is, if they know people will have 2 button mice, they'll get lazy and we'll end up with programs using contextual menus instead of offering better UI techniques.

Now that argument applies only to saying that Apple shouldn't stop selling one-button mice, but doesn't address the point that Apple could offer an option on mice. Now here's the problem with that:

PROBLEMS WITH OFFERING THE OPTION:

Apple can either:

1. Give you a 1-button mouse with the computer, but offer a 2-button for sale seperately.

2. Let you choose online in BTO configurations.

3. Allow you to "delete" the mouse from your order.


Problem with option 1: People will be pissed that they have to fork over extra money to Apple for a second mouse, and this offers few advantages to APple over allowing you to choose a 3rd party mouse.

Problem with option 2: Inventory. It would be virtually impossible for retail stores (including Apple authorized resllers AND Apple Stores) to know what percentage of users will buy each. This would make an inventory nightmare, so APple could choose to only sell them as BTO on the online Apple STore. This will infuriate resellers, as well as cost Apple extra money, which is inherent with every BTO order. I'd rather save the extra $50 it might cost Apple and buy a 3rd party mouse.

Problem with option 3: Much like the BTO issue of problem 2, since the mouse is shipped *with* the computer, you still suffer from reseller issues as well as added cost for Apple to *remove* the mouse from your custom order. Apple could just start shipping all units without mice and require and extra purchase, but you KNOW people would complain about how Macs don't even ship with mice.

Basically, my point is, I don't see a good solution here. Providing the option, in theory, is a good ideam but, as Apple found with multi-colored iMacs, the inventory maintenance and guessing on demand is a nightmare. This would make the point for either shipping all of one kind of mouse (either all one-button or all two-button) and, as I pointed out above, ut seems to make sense, froim a UI standpoint, to choose 1-button, and allow consumers the option of purchasing their own 2-button mouse.

That said, Apple could always come up with some ingenious method of combining one and two-button mice into one individual mouse with a software setting of some kind... We'll just have to wait6 and see on that, but I don't think it's anything worth threatening to move to PC or arguing that people won't switch to Mac because of the one-button mouse. I think, if you did some researcch, you'd find that, despite some people using that as an excuse, that isn't the real reason they're not buying a Mac.

Finally a post that "actually" makes sense... Thank You!!! What a bunch of whiners on this board....

 

[biotech9]

I quote...

"
Problem with option 2: Inventory. It would be virtually impossible for retail stores (including Apple authorized resllers AND Apple Stores) to know what percentage of users will buy each. This would make an inventory nightmare, so APple could choose to only sell them as BTO on the online Apple STore. This will infuriate resellers, as well as cost Apple extra money, which is inherent with every BTO order. I'd rather save the extra $50 it might cost Apple and buy a 3rd party mouse.

"



And i say this,

That is one of the stupidest things i have heard here today.

How the hell do you expect Apple to tell what percentage of users to like ibooks over PBs? I mean, How the hell DOES ANY company know what percentage of product Z or Y people want?


You are an astonishingly foolish person.

This is too much for me, I was under the impression MAc zealots were just a bit too in love with Apple to see imperfection, but this is sheer delusion. What kind of warped minds do you have.

Compare the option for a 3 button mouse to the option of buying a kensington mouse, its horribly easy, Its available at the Apple store.

If it was there, people would not get pissed of and hate apple because they have to pay more, they would be happy because the choice is there.


I cannot get over how far you will stretch reason just to get answers to the unanswerable. To whit, why is there no option for Mice?

 

[maka]

There are lots of customers that use the one button mouse. (over 30% in the poll at this forum) and I am one of them.

I agree with Apple's philosophy of a simple interface and a one button mouse, because I think it's better and faster tu use. I don't see why they have to make a mouse against their philosophy.

You as a user are free to buy whatever mouse you like.

 

[jeffberg]

Do any of you realise that the reason the Macintosh is so easy is because of the one button mouse. Because of the one button mouse. Companies try to make interfaces that are simple and intuitive instead of just relying on the second mouse button that windows has. Sure, it may be annoying when some apps are really friendly to the right button and others are not, but the 1 button mouse is essential to keeping the macintosh simple. Once 2 buttons are standard, companies will stop making simple intuitive interfaces and will sell out with contextual menus up the ass.

The good thing about a 1 button mouse. Is you can replace it with 2 if your a pro. With a 2 button mouse, you can't replace it with a 1 if your a home user.

I'm sure this is Job's reasoning. I too sort of wish Apple would make a 2 button mouse in the same shape as their one button mouse (the most comforable mouse in the world) but right now I am using a 2 button mouse with a scroll wheel.

I just think that if Apple made 2 buttons standard our standard of easiness would disappear. not instantly, but 10 or 20 years later I think the Mac would be just as messed up as PC's (assuming we use mouses 20 years from now)