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BenTrovato

macrumors 68040
Jun 29, 2012
3,035
2,198
Canada
I prefer when your market you play in can be an advantage haha. I don't like it necessarily like baseball where its a free for all which is kind of what F1 is like now. I do like how the NBA does it though with a soft salary cap and luxury tax penalties so it still helps smaller markets, but the larger markets can use their built in advantages.

Revenue sharing would be an interesting idea for F1. Something like you spend over a certain amount on your R&D and tech and anything over a certain amount you also give that money to the league and then at the end they disperse all the funds to the teams below that point?

That would be a good start. There's a number of ways to do it. The reason why I like the NFL's method is because it raises the value of each individual franchise and when you have a league of valuable franchises, then the league is stronger. The opposite of F1. The problem is, this is what works and how F1 does it has been showing that it no longer works. It's just that the groups involved will not let go of their pieces of the pie.

In 2010 the NFL shared 3 billion in revenues. Last year it was 7.2 billion. That's a LOT of money, while the sport continues to grow. The NHL has done the same thing. People want to see parity in sport. They want to see unpredictability and that anyone can win. Honestly.. what the hell is F1? Why is there a car called Manor who can never win a weekend, let alone a championship. It makes less sense the more I type. I understand F1 was a certain way in 1989 with Senna vs Prost and we all loved it but those days are over, that system no longer works.

It's January and everyone knows that nobody can challenge Mercedes. It was the same last January and the January before that. There will be a few hopefuls and pundits saying "Ferrari have made great strides" and "Vettel can win the championship this year" but the people that know, they know nobody can challenge Mercedes this year because the rules prevent anyone from developing enough to get the performance needed and that simple isn't fair or entertaining in this day in age.
 

JoshMKB24

macrumors 6502a
Jan 5, 2013
520
44
Midwest
That would be a good start. There's a number of ways to do it. The reason why I like the NFL's method is because it raises the value of each individual franchise and when you have a league of valuable franchises, then the league is stronger. The opposite of F1. The problem is, this is what works and how F1 does it has been showing that it no longer works. It's just that the groups involved will not let go of their pieces of the pie.

In 2010 the NFL shared 3 billion in revenues. Last year it was 7.2 billion. That's a LOT of money, while the sport continues to grow. The NHL has done the same thing. People want to see parity in sport. They want to see unpredictability and that anyone can win. Honestly.. what the hell is F1? Why is there a car called Manor who can never win a weekend, let alone a championship. It makes less sense the more I type. I understand F1 was a certain way in 1989 with Senna vs Prost and we all loved it but those days are over, that system no longer works.

It's January and everyone knows that nobody can challenge Mercedes. It was the same last January and the January before that. There will be a few hopefuls and pundits saying "Ferrari have made great strides" and "Vettel can win the championship this year" but the people that know, they know nobody can challenge Mercedes this year because the rules prevent anyone from developing enough to get the performance needed and that simple isn't fair or entertaining in this day in age.

I would still say the NBA model would be what we should be aiming for. The NBA is better than ever as far as popularity around the world and that expansion is why the franchises are going for so much and why the Clippers got 2B in the sale a few years ago. People like parity, but people also just like watching the Lakers(Go Lakers!), Celtics, Bulls, and Knicks. When the franchises with history are playing well people tune in whether to cheer for them or against them. I think the same could be said for F1 fans. I think people want more parity so its more competitive, but you know people will still always want to cheer for/against Ferrari, Mercedes, etc.
 

OllyW

Moderator
Staff member
Oct 11, 2005
17,196
6,799
The Black Country, England
The NBA is better than ever as far as popularity around the world...
Is this the world you are talking about?
US+only+Globe.jpg


:D:p
 

BenTrovato

macrumors 68040
Jun 29, 2012
3,035
2,198
Canada
If you compare American football (or basketball) to European football you are missing the point. The NFL has taken massive strides in the past 5 years that even the Europeans are wondering how to fix their top heavy format which is the same as F1. In European football the most prize money comes from competing and doing well in the Champions League. It's always the same in Europe. Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus, Inter Milan, PSG, Bayern, Man City, etc. It's not the norm to see Arsenal's fall from grace this season and Man City would never be where they are today without that humongous cash influx that changed the course of that franchise.

It's the same in F1 (http://www.totalsportek.com/f1/formula-1-prize-money/). This creates a big problem. Why I keep mentioning the NFL is that they've executed it brilliantly and it wasn't easy to get to that point when you had franchises like the Dallas Cowboys or Washington Redskins that were making a large percentage of the pie and didn't want to give it up in the same way Ferrari and Mercedes do now. Even McLaren gets a hefty payout despite a horrendous season. Not the same for Force India. What the NFL did was show the vision that by giving up their large piece of the pie, they would take a smaller piece but the size of the pie would grow so much that their smaller piece would be more than the big piece they enjoy now AND the quality of the product would increase.

As long as F1 continues to divide the pie in such an unfair way we'll never see competitive racing that we don't know who is going to win or every season all the teams have an opportunity for success. The world has changed. European soccer is struggling to adapt to this model because of how much money is on the table and because of the format for which everyone gets paid. F1 is the same. Ferrari will never give up that 2.5% they get off the top before anyone else gets paid. Can you imagine any other major sport where this is allowed to happen? The current structure doesn't allow for top to bottom competitiveness. They can talk about bringing back refueling all they want, it won't change a thing.
 

JoshMKB24

macrumors 6502a
Jan 5, 2013
520
44
Midwest
Is this the world you are talking about?
US+only+Globe.jpg


:D:p


Add China/Span/Greece in there and about right! I'm not saying its super popular everywhere, but its gaining popularity. I guess I mean basketball in general, not necessarily the NBA. The NBA is definitely gaining a ton of popularity in China. They love NBA players there. I was talking about using their business model as far as revenue sharing for F1 to help even things out a little bit
 

pachyderm

macrumors G3
Jan 12, 2008
9,953
4,870
Smyrna, TN
Williams-FW38-2016-F1.png


2016 ?

Mercedes
Ferrari - 19th Feb?
Williams - 22nd Feb, Barcelona Pitlane
Red Bull
Force India
Lotus (Renault)
Toro Rosso - late Feb
Sauber - 2nd test - 1st March
McLaren - 21 Feb, Barcelona Pitlane
Manor - 22nd Feb, Barcelona Pitlane (crash tests passed)
Haas - 21st Feb online, 22 Feb - car, Barcelona Pitlane(crash tests passed)
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,192
52,828
Behind the Lens, UK
Williams-FW38-2016-F1.png


2016 ?

Mercedes
Ferrari - 19th Feb?
Williams - 22nd Feb, Barcelona Pitlane
Red Bull
Force India
Lotus (Renault)
Toro Rosso - late Feb
Sauber - 2nd test - 1st March
McLaren - 21 Feb, Barcelona Pitlane
Manor - 22nd Feb, Barcelona Pitlane
(crash tests passed)
Haas - 21st Feb online, 22 Feb - car, Barcelona Pitlane(crash tests passed)
Isn't Haas just last years Ferrari painted different?
 
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Ev0d3vil

macrumors 6502
Sep 22, 2014
480
84
Wow I didn't know there would be a formula 1 community here! Lewis Hamilton for the wdc again this year !
 

Melrose

Suspended
Dec 12, 2007
7,806
399
If you compare American football (or basketball) to European football you are missing the point. The NFL has taken massive strides in the past 5 years that even the Europeans are wondering how to fix their top heavy format which is the same as F1. In European football the most prize money comes from competing and doing well in the Champions League. It's always the same in Europe. Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus, Inter Milan, PSG, Bayern, Man City, etc. It's not the norm to see Arsenal's fall from grace this season and Man City would never be where they are today without that humongous cash influx that changed the course of that franchise.

It's the same in F1 (http://www.totalsportek.com/f1/formula-1-prize-money/). This creates a big problem. Why I keep mentioning the NFL is that they've executed it brilliantly and it wasn't easy to get to that point when you had franchises like the Dallas Cowboys or Washington Redskins that were making a large percentage of the pie and didn't want to give it up in the same way Ferrari and Mercedes do now. Even McLaren gets a hefty payout despite a horrendous season. Not the same for Force India. What the NFL did was show the vision that by giving up their large piece of the pie, they would take a smaller piece but the size of the pie would grow so much that their smaller piece would be more than the big piece they enjoy now AND the quality of the product would increase.

As long as F1 continues to divide the pie in such an unfair way we'll never see competitive racing that we don't know who is going to win or every season all the teams have an opportunity for success. The world has changed. European soccer is struggling to adapt to this model because of how much money is on the table and because of the format for which everyone gets paid. F1 is the same. Ferrari will never give up that 2.5% they get off the top before anyone else gets paid. Can you imagine any other major sport where this is allowed to happen? The current structure doesn't allow for top to bottom competitiveness. They can talk about bringing back refueling all they want, it won't change a thing.
The whole prize money issue way, way out of whack.

They need to stop giving money to teams just because they are a certain team. Ferrari getting 5% just for being Ferrari? How fair.
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,192
52,828
Behind the Lens, UK
The whole prize money issue way, way out of whack.

They need to stop giving money to teams just because they are a certain team. Ferrari getting 5% just for being Ferrari? How fair.
True, but teams (private or manufacturers) come and go. Ferrari is the only constant. That's why they command a %.
 

dmunz

macrumors regular
Aug 24, 2010
192
53

Is this legit? I hadn't seen anything about Porsche sponsoring Willaims. If it is real, that is cool.

I also like the Haas pic upthread. That gold color would stand out on the grid.

FWIW
DLM
[doublepost=1453939447][/doublepost]
2016 stuff already cropping up, especially with American team Haas F1.

http://www.foxsports.com/motor/stor...very-romain-grosjean-esteban-gutierrez-121415


Not official, but here's a concept rendering.
Yello-Haas-F1-Team.jpg
Does Texaco even exist anymore? I like the color but i'm not sure how real this can be.

FWIW
DLM
 

Melrose

Suspended
Dec 12, 2007
7,806
399
True, but teams (private or manufacturers) come and go. Ferrari is the only constant. That's why they command a %.

You know as well any intelligent, logical person that's not true. Ferrari is the oldest, not the "only constant." Good grief that's ridiculous. Both McLaren and Williams are long-term constructors - or do you ignore them because you're not a fan? Are they as old as Ferrari? No, but then again even Ferrari wasn't there when the sport began.

F1 is the only thing they have - their road cars get trounced in any fair match by a Lamborghini, McLaren, or Porsche... they'd never leave F1.

I'm sure you'll also agree that "constant" is not a word defined in the dictionary by age.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,192
52,828
Behind the Lens, UK
You know as well any intelligent, logical person that's not true. Ferrari is the oldest, not the "only constant." Good grief that's ridiculous. Both McLaren and Williams are long-term constructors - or do you ignore them because you're not a fan? Are they as old as Ferrari? No, but then again even Ferrari wasn't there when the sport began.

F1 is the only thing they have - their road cars get trounced in any fair match by a Lamborghini, McLaren, or Porsche... they'd never leave F1.

I'm sure you'll also agree that "constant" is not a word defined in the dictionary by age.
Certainly not a Ferrari fan. I'd much rather see a McLaren or Williams win! I am from the UK after all.
What I mean is as a manufacturer (not private team), they have been there for an age. The likes of Porsche or Renult come and go. That's why Bernie likes them so much.
If Force India packed up tomorrow, do you think many would miss them? Die hard fans yes, but the masses probably not.
You could say the same for a lot of the grid. But Ferrari have the biggest fan base.
I'd rather an even playing field for prize money, but I can't see that happening.
 

CWallace

macrumors G4
Aug 17, 2007
11,993
10,662
Seattle, WA
It's just a reflection of what a sad state the sport is in. Apparently the hosting fees started at 25 million in 2012 and now are at 33 million. An 8 million dollar spike in 3 years. You can't price gouge everywhere you go. I think the CVC group is a parasite and the condition of the sport has never been worse. F1 needs a shakeup from the top down!

The original fee structure was a fair bit less onerous, but once the current owners kicked out Tavo Hellmund, Bernie cancelled the original contract (as he had the right to do) and jacked up the fees (as Tavo is a close friend of his). COTA has failed to pay the 2015 fees to FOM, which is why they're listed as tentative for 2016.
 

OllyW

Moderator
Staff member
Oct 11, 2005
17,196
6,799
The Black Country, England
You know as well any intelligent, logical person that's not true. Ferrari is the oldest, not the "only constant." Good grief that's ridiculous. Both McLaren and Williams are long-term constructors - or do you ignore them because you're not a fan? Are they as old as Ferrari? No, but then again even Ferrari wasn't there when the sport began.
It is true, Ferrari is the only constructor to have competed in every Formula One world championship since the inaugural season in 1950.
 

Melrose

Suspended
Dec 12, 2007
7,806
399
It is true, Ferrari is the only constructor to have competed in every Formula One world championship since the inaugural season in 1950.

...my point stands. Constancy is not defined by age, it's defined by constancy. There are more teams than Ferrari that have been committed as a single constructor since they began. Yeah, I get Renault or and Bennetton, Mercedes as well, but the fact remains that Ferrari is hardly the only constant team. If you want to reward a team for being the original constructor, by all means do so - but then give McLaren and Williams 5% as well, otherwise it's biased and unfair, and by sporting rules should stop.

If you can find a dictionary that defines constancy by age alone, show me. But it's a moot point because F1 is hardly the central concern of life. They'll do what they do... Ferrari will have tantrums, like they've always done in both Scuderia and road cars, and people will give them what they want.

:)
 

OllyW

Moderator
Staff member
Oct 11, 2005
17,196
6,799
The Black Country, England
...my point stands. Constancy is not defined by age, it's defined by constancy. There are more teams than Ferrari that have been committed as a single constructor since they began. Yeah, I get Renault or and Bennetton, Mercedes as well, but the fact remains that Ferrari is hardly the only constant team. If you want to reward a team for being the original constructor, by all means do so - but then give McLaren and Williams 5% as well, otherwise it's biased and unfair, and by sporting rules should stop.

If you can find a dictionary that defines constancy by age alone, show me. But it's a moot point because F1 is hardly the central concern of life. They'll do what they do... Ferrari will have tantrums, like they've always done in both Scuderia and road cars, and people will give them what they want.

:)
I'm not supporting the pay structure, I was just confirming that Ferrari are the only team that have raced in every single season since the F1 championship first started, which I assumed is what @Apple fanboy meant and you were appearing to disagreed with.
 
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