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Discussion in 'Games' started by Haoshiro, Aug 14, 2006.
Just to toss in my thoughts, this is a really interesting move my Microsoft that I honestly did not expect. I would have thought it could hurt XBLA sales, but maybe it won't.
I'm really interesting in this as I was already interested in releasing something on XBLA, until I heard even that would cost several hundred thousand dollars.
Something like this though, could really drive sales for all the indie developers, and in turn those developers might end up pushing more sales to friends/etc.
Jimmi, now there doesn't seem to be an excuse for you to not really Satan Sam on the 360!
Interesting. It might take a while for the first generation of user made games to pop up on XBox Live but this is certainly worth keeping an eye on. I hope we will see some crative games and not only 8429 Halo styled "homages".
I wonder what they mean by "Rudimentary games only". I've seen a similar article on gamespot that said that more sophisticated games like Halo could be posible.
Super interesting. I'll be looking forward to what people come up with.
I believe this is because they are going to omit various tools, and possibly limit the size of projects you can create with it. If it were limited to say, 16-32MB project size then that would restrict what could be done with it.
This is very, very good. Though I think (and here we go with "you're a fanboy" sentiments) Nintendo has the better idea. Cheap Wii dev kits and not every game appearing on the download service, it sounds as if Nintendo want the higher quality games only which would be better for a great upcoming indie game studio to get noticed.
Though I really commend MS for this. This has pushed me into getting my own 360 now, though I think i'll wait to see exactly what happens with limitations and future details. But this is just so excellent, Cave Story 360 anyone so long as Pixel makes it a bit longer.
Good going MS and Nintendo... Sony's reaction?
Well the thing we don't know about Nintendo is how easy it will be to get a dev kit, and once you have it and have finished your game, how easy will it be to get it on the system? Nintendo has historically been very strict about QA, and that could really limit what we see as far as indie games go just due to the QA process, even if every game passed, it would delay them that few would ever come out at a time.
With this, if it is true it could end up like 'YouTube for games' then MS can basically let the public do the quality control themselves, popularity and user rankings would weed out the good from the bad.
Plus, even thought $2K is cheap for a dev kit, there are still going to be a lot of indie talent shut out at that price.
We're hearing so much about the 360's Online service but not so much about Sony's...come on Sony!
I think you're leaping to some conclusions here.
First, how is "cheap" (Nintendo) better than "free" in the case of the MS developer kit?
Second, I see nothing in that press release that says MS is just going to toss up any old game on XBL and call it good. "Publish" != "toss up on XBL Marketplace so anyone can download." Why do you assume that all the Nintendo games will be "higher quality?"
Considering I don't think you own a 360 or have played XBL games (please correct me if I'm wrong), you're presuming there's no existing quality control and you'd be very wrong.
Forgive me for saying so, but you seem to always be looking for excuses to not get a 360. Which is fine, except you do so as a precursor as positioning yourself as being unbiased towards the console. ("I'm going to be critical about the console that I don't own, but it's okay becuase I want to own one.")
Come on jimmi, **** or get off the pot!
Maybe it's because I work in the indie world but it's been something debated for years. Free applications versus paid (XNA and Wii dev). If you have to pay for something then you generally find more time to use it, after all your money has gone into it.
The final conclusion being if you are dedicated to the cause you will be willing to spend money on it. Which means you basically have a better view on what games to make than "it was free so i made this 5 minute game", you never hear "I spent millions on the Unreal 3 engine and made a walking simulator game".
This is exactly the situation the Xbox/PS3+Wii are in. Free online? Will it be better moderated, as high quality content as the 360 has? It's reassuring to spend money as it keeps the bad stuff out.
Another scenario is the freeware world, where countless numbers of people use free game making applications for terrible, terrible results. The real people with imagination and determination BUY software and bring out some excellent stuff. Sure there are bad applications from them kind of people (nothing is black and white) but the overwhelming majority sit down, plan and execute.
Another scenario away from gaming - my local skate park started to charge an entrance fee which pushes out the local scum who don't skate and just try and cause trouble.
I'm all for paying a small fee (on either end as player or developer) to get better results. even if it is auto initiated by the price of development.
My brother owns a 360 and it's as good as mine. I can use it whatever way I want so long as he's at work or not using it. I've played the games (Live Arcade and regular), I know there is quality control. But isn't this whole new 360/XNA thing about distributing your games online? I just sincerely hope these extremely cheap games are kept separate from current Live Arcade ("Live Arcade Community"?).
Finally of course I can be critical towards something I don't own myself. I play 360's so I'm somehow not allowed to criticise them because I haven't put down the money myself? Those film critics better shut the **** up because they don't own the rights to the film too.
I can't find the article but I remembered posting it.....I think Sony is doing the same thing..I can't remember which thread I posted it in...oh well but I think its almost the same thing..I could be wrong though because I can't find it.
My respect for Microsoft went up a little notch. Raggedjimmi and I have been talking about how we hope the Wii does that very thing with consumer-oriented development packages for virtual console titles.
Well, Nintendo's Pro one is cheap (you're comparing MS's consumer one to Nintendo's pro one), however I think Jimmi is making way too many assumptions. We know almost nothing about the Virtual Console. Not enough info to judge who has better quality control and all.
Sharing will not be as easy as uploading to Live. I'd guess that there will be a way to submit games for XBLA approval, though...
From the FAQ:
Q: How exactly can I share my 360 game to other 360 users? Will my game only be available to people with the XNA "Creators Club" subscription? Will it be available to all 360 users that have an Xbox Live account?
A: There is currently no supported way to share binaries on the Xbox 360. Currently, there are four requirements that must be met in order to share a game targeting Xbox 360 which is developed with XNA Game Studio Express.
1. The individual you are planning to share the game with must be logged in to Xbox Live and have an active subscription to the XNA Creators Club
2. The receiving user must have downloaded the XNA Framework runtime environment for the Xbox 360
3. The receiving user must have XNA Game Studio Express installed on their own development PC
4. The game project, including all source and content assets, must be shared with the receiving user. The receiving user then compiles and deploys the game to their Xbox 360.
I was just going to post the same.
So you've got XNA, you've got a 360, you've got a pc, and a game of mediocrity, well that dont impress me much ......
Okay, MRU, you've got my wiping tears of laughter over here! Well done! (And that damn song stuck in my head!)
Covered in some other replies so I won't belabor this point.
That's not what I said. What I said is that it's interesting that you nearly always use the fact that you want or are thinking about getting a 360 as a precursor or a "free ride" for your critical comments. It's just an observation on my part. I've nothing against you stating your opinion, critical or otherwise.
Thanks for the reply.
"Hummmm? How can we copy this as well?"
LOL! Best not read the will launch lineup thread either. I'll have that song infecting your brain for months
I was super enthusiast when I first read this article but after reading some comments on digg, I'm pooped-out… because they kinda make sense.
Do you think these guys have a point?
Could this be getting us a step closer to consoles w/user made maps and mods?
That's always been one area where computer games had an advantage is all the user made content, where was w/consoles you are stuck w/only the maps that shipped w/the game (excluding the rare case where a few more developer made maps are released later).
User made games don't interest me all that much, but user made maps and mods would get my attention.
Yes that's my point with post 15
Will indies will be able to profit from their games made with XNA? Otherwise, it sounds like Microsoft is charging you 99$ to make games for them. I must be reading that wrong.
Yes and no. I think there has been a lot of great indie games, finding them can be more difficult then you would think. I think jimmi's Satan Sam is great, and probably deserves a commercial publication for a handheld, and let's not forget Alien Hominoid. I myself activily searched for good free titles very often and when I did find some good games, they were often a year or more old... I just never found them. I never found Satan Sam until this year, and it is very well made.
The 360, if they did end up having a YouTube like service, could make the good titles easier to find, since a single location would house them.
I would also think that it would be the hope of many aspiring developers to actually 'get noticed' and end up with a publishing deal, from Microsoft or someone else... then the games would move off the free service and move to XBLA. Again, Alien Hominoid is one of the best examples of such a success story (although not involving 360).
Having a closed platform, unified controls, and powerful system could also make indies more likely to get together for group projects, which could really turn out some great content, imo.
Very good points. but only IF