9.11.2003: Where are we now?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Waluigi, Sep 10, 2003.

  1. Waluigi macrumors 6502

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    #1
    It's been 2 years to the day since terrorists attacked us. At first, I, like most of us, was confused, and most of all angry. Although my emotions ran high for a while, they eventually have gone away. You see, I'm lucky, I didn't know anyone who died, or who were sent halfway around the world a few months later into war to put their life on the line. For me, it's been kind of like watching a sports game: very high emotions during the game, but after the game is over, you go about living your life without any consequences if your team wins or loses.

    Here we are 2 years later, and I don't think we have made any progress at reaching a state of peace and harmony. We have, in fact, gone backwards, as a society. Worst of all is the confusion created by the Bush administration. There are so many questions, so much chaos, so much confusion about the current wars, and so much negativity.

    Tonight, I'll be attending a vigil to remember those who were killed. I'll never forget watching the events unfold, being glued to the TV for 3 weeks, and visiting ground zero to see the devastation hate caused. There have been only 4 times in my life that I have actually been so lost that I prayed to God: My Grandfather's and Uncle's deaths, my best friend's suicide, and 9-11. This event seems like it is the center of my life, yet I know nothing about it. So, I ask the question: 2 years later, where are we now?

    RIP to all those who died, and all the soldiers who have consequently given their lives to protect us.

    --Waluigi
     
  2. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #2
    Re: 9.11.2003: Where are we now?

    as a society, we still haven't considered what causes terrorism. the administration's response hasn't wavered in those two years -- kill.

    what's behind that sentiment just might be a factor in causing terrorism in the first place. and the number of people who hate the US and their resolve to attack it might just have increased.

    to bush, the appearance of strength outweighs the questionability of the results.

    to me, to not understand one's foe is to lose.
     
  3. Waluigi thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #3
    Re: Re: 9.11.2003: Where are we now?

    Yes, this is really a clash of western vs. non-western culture that dated all the way back to the time of Columbus when Europeans started to have a sense of superiority over nonwestern cultures since they were taking over the globe. We Americans clearly don't understand Islam at all, or the life that people live in suppressed countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, or Saudi Arabia. Like in Vietnam, we couldn't win the war because we couldn't win the minds and hearts of the people, the same principle holds true here.

    --Waluigi
     
  4. G4scott macrumors 68020

    G4scott

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    #4
    What Bush has done is disrupt terrorists all across the world. It's like hitting a beehive. Once we fought back, all of the terrorists came out of the woodwork, which is good and bad. It gives us the opportunity to take them out before they can do harm to innocent people, yet it provokes them, and makes them want to attack even more.

    So, instead of sitting idly, and letting terrorists breed, and continue to kill innocent Americans, Bush has taken the war to the terrorists. Something our former president should've done.
     
  5. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #5
    shall i save your post for the next terrorist attack?
     
  6. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #6
    If the focus had been maintained on al-Qaeda you wouldn't have much disagreement throughout the world. It is when the "war on terror" is used as a smokescreen for larger geopolitical aims, like the invasion of Iraq that we have problems. As to Clinton, he did try to take action against al-Qaeda, later than he should have and without much republican support, but it is inaccurate to imply he did nothing.
     
  7. 3rdpath macrumors 68000

    3rdpath

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    #7

    it is an excellent comparison/anaolgy...but having seen multiple approaches to eradicating beehives...hitting it is the absolute worst thing you can do.

    sadly, i will agree that bush has decided to use this moronic tactic...and our troops and quite possibly you or me will pay the price for this blunder.
     
  8. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #8
    Yes, if you want to kill the bees, you need to burn the whole hive.

    We're buttass naked, smeared with honey and poking at it with a stick.
     
  9. tazo macrumors 68040

    tazo

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    #9
    Where are we now?

    People would rather die on an airplane, or by a random sucide bombing, then commit the ever-horrible "racial profiling". Who gives a **** about "Racial profiling"? I don.'t...hell I am profiled for being a white teen ALL THE TIME. Although that is more aimed towards being a teen in general than just being a caucasian male...

    Its quite hurtful being thrown out of a mexican grocery store after the slew of 'gringo' comments I heard. Or being told I can never go to a certain college because of the level of "Diversity" needing creation prior to my admittance.

    What pisses me off is not racial profiling of caucasian males, but rather of how people appreciate racial profiling when it's in their best interest, but I digress....

    If all arab and black individuals were to receive free money everytime they passed Go St. no one would complain...but the first time they get a speeding ticket on it....
     
  10. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #10
    Re: Re: 9.11.2003: Where are we now?

    Religious zealotry. That is what causes it. Period. You have two options with terrorists.

    Kill, or be killed. Period. There are no other options. If you negotiate with them, or change policiy for their benifit, then you make them a viable political power, and that cannot happen.
     
  11. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #11
    Re: Re: Re: 9.11.2003: Where are we now?

    it fans the flames, certainly. but what exists that makes someone turn towards it?

    i see a parallel between that and what makes someone turns towards a US street gang. certainly the policy here goes beyond just locking them up, but also addresses the root causes of unrest.

    i suggest we take a serious, hard look at terrorism in these terms and then do some serious soul-searching for some real solutions.

    i see terrorism as a hyrda -- kill one terrorist and two more spring to take his place. e.g. palestine
     
  12. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #12
    Re: Re: Re: Re: 9.11.2003: Where are we now?

    No, what it is is people believing in their religion that when they begin to blame others for their plight. IE, look at Hitler. He was a terrorist. He blamed others for all of their shortcomings. It is a racial, religious war. Period. Those people are taught, from day one to hate each other.
     
  13. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #13
  14. Daveman Deluxe macrumors 68000

    Daveman Deluxe

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    #14
    Excellent analysis of the situation. I haven't decided whether I believe it is true yet, but it is a well-thought-out essay. It brings about a different point of view and definitely commands some merit.
     
  15. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #15
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 9.11.2003: Where are we now?

    Lots of problems arise when people have absolute certainty that they are right. And it sure doesn't help things when they claim God is on their side.
     
  16. Moxiemike macrumors 68020

    Moxiemike

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    #16
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 9.11.2003: Where are we now?

    Which is a nice metaphor for what the Americans are doing right now!

    Our hapless leader and his crew believe that what we are doing in the middle east, this occupation of Iraq, to be the 100% correct thing to do.

    And we claim that this nation, one nation under god, will continue to do what's right.

    Absolute certainty + the belief that god is on your side = America vs. Iraq, 2003. To a T.

    The thing we have to remember, and I keep saying this, is that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    I absolutely agree that the misguided, pre-emptive strike on Iraq only worsened public opinion worldwide of the Americans.

    Some interesting quotes from yesterday's NY Times:

    "A lot of people had sympathy for Americans around the time of 9/11, but that's changed," said Cathy Hearn, 31, a flight attendant from South Africa, expressing a view commonly heard in many countries. "They act like the big guy riding roughshod over everyone else."

    To some degree, the resentment is centered on the person of President Bush, who is seen by many of those interviewed, at best, as an ineffective spokesman for American interests and, at worst, as a gunslinging cowboy knocking over international treaties and bent on controlling the world's oil, if not the entire world.

    "America has taken power over the world," said Dmitri Olshansky, 25, a literary crtic and writer in Moscow. "It's a wonderful country, but it seized power. It's ruling the world. America's attempts to rebuild all the world in the image of liberalism and capitalism are fraught with the same dangers as the Nazis taking over the world."

    A Frenchman, Jean-Charles Pogram, 45, a computer technician, said: "Everyone agrees on the principles of democracy and freedom, but the problem is that we don't agree with the means to achieve those ends. The United States can't see beyond the axiom that force can solve everything, but Europe, because of two world wars, knows the price of blood."

    Here's the link. They do have the registration thing, but a TOTALLY worthwhile read:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/international/11OPIN.html?pagewanted=1
     
  17. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #17
    I always like the probably-apochryphal story about Churchill. Someone said, "I hope the Lord is on our side." Churchill responded, "No, let us hope that we are on the Lord's side."

    This particular view of Dubya as "...a gunslinging cowboy knocking over international treaties and bent on controlling the world's oil..." is in error. It's one of those "everybody knows" things that is mistaken.

    Dunno why folks have difficulty remembering some 17 UN resolutions that should have been enforced *by the UN* long before we went into Iraq.

    As for the oil, US control is the last thing that's wanted. What's wanted is a stable market, controlled by the sellers and the buyers at some stable market price. The last thing the US government wants is to have to be involved. The oil companies believe there is already too much government involvement, and they, themselves, fight and squabble like the Kilkenny cats over who gets what from where.

    'Rat
     
  18. Moxiemike macrumors 68020

    Moxiemike

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    #18
    Of course the gov't doesn't wanna be involved. ;)

    Explain then, that $7billion account to rebuild the pipelines that was awarded to Halliburton?

    how is this thing about bush and his cronies not getting richer?

    It's surely not about the iraqi people or the american soldiers. :)
     
  19. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #19
    I would rather die in a terrorist attack than give up freedom and liberties

    Yeah -- I guarantee you'd notice and be bothered by racial profiling a lot more if you were a black teen. You would certainly give a ****.

    So you've experienced racism. And your reaction is not to be sickened by all racism?

    Instead, you propose to allow racism against those who were racist towards you to continue. You're not against racism, you're against racism towards you. Ever stop and think how they feel? You're feeding the cycle of hate.

    We're not talking about speeding tickets. Racial profiling has a statistical history of targeting blacks and Hispanics for much more than speeding tickets, though that's often the excuse to pull them over in the first place.
     
  20. tazo macrumors 68040

    tazo

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    #20
    Liberals will always be the first to say how blacks and hispanics are targets of racial profiling, and ultimately go to jail more. If that is so, why is it that the majority of people in jail are WHITE males?

    What amazes me is that people neglect to consider the fact that caucasian males are some of the most discriminated-against people on this earth.

    And yeah, I have dealt with racism, are you saying that makes me exempt from talking about it? I am not for racism, against caucasians, against hispanics, not against black people either.

    I dont know where you got that from?

    Perhaps because I am white? :eek:
     
  21. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #21
    Because the majority of the people in the counrty are white males. Proportionately, more minorities are in jail. Even more disproportionate is the percentage on death row.

    Because you said you don't care about minorities being racially discriminated against.

    It's easy for you to say that, being a white male, and you justified it with the fact that minorities have used discrimination against you.

    You're cycling the hate. Shrug it off. Turn the other cheek. Don't hold it against all Mexicans that some idiotic grocery store clerk called you a gringo.

    Why so defensive?
     
  22. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #22
    'Rat, I remember them. I remember that most of them were being enforced. The many inspectors in Iraq, right before the invasion, were there enforcing a UN resolution. I also remember that there was no resolution authorizing the US to take the action it did. I never had a problem with more stringent enforcement of the decisions of the world community in conformity with international law. I do have a problem with Bush deciding to violate our obligations under many international agreements with the launching of a "preemptive war."
     
  23. actripxl macrumors 6502

    actripxl

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    #23
    Gringo

    Gringo is not the equivalent of calling a hispanic a spic. Gringo is not a term used in a derogatory manner, originally it was used to describe whites but has shifted towards Americans since hispanicas themselves are called Gringos when they travel to southamerica or the carribbean.
     
  24. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #24
    Re: Gringo

    We just had a whole thread devoted to this. Gringo is a derogatory term. Take a look in any good dictionary and it will tell you so. Whether it is equivalent to the slur, spic, is a whole 'nother question. I wouldn't recommend using either of them.
     
  25. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #25
    (Singing)
    Never be rude to an Arab....

    (Montey Python humor. I couldn't write down any more of the song than that, but you can hear some at the iTMS if you want.:D )
     

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