A.B.A denounces Bush Admin re detainees

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by diamond geezer, Aug 10, 2004.

  1. diamond geezer macrumors regular

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    #1
    link

    You don't need an artist to paint the US as arrogant and above the law, you just need a bloody photographer.
     
  2. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #2
    i click and click and click, but nothing ever happens :(

    anyone recall the last time the ABA made such a stand? (it's not a quiz, i want to find out)
     
  3. diamond geezer thread starter macrumors regular

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  4. California macrumors 68040

    California

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    #4
    So what about the Gitmo detainees. Sorry.

    First, let's take Bush out of the equation.

    Kerry advocated unilateral, preemptive attack on Iraq in 1997.

    So the candidates are cancelled out.

    As to the detainees at Gitmo, they are not US citizens.

    FDR detained Nazis in the same way during WWII.

    Either we are at war, or we are not.

    If the attacks on 9/11 were real, which I believe they were, then we have been at war since 1993 during the first Iraq/Al queda attack and did not know it. Now we have a commander in chief with the cajones to call it a war. Not some wife cheatin' smart aleck who avoided his CIA director like the plague during his whole eight years in office.

    Either we fight as if we mean to win, or we shoot ourselves in the foot with our politically correct "kindness". During wartime, appeasement to your enemy only builds up a bloodier blackmail at a later date. Look how our stopping our "police action" in Korea when the Chinese were breathing down our necks turned out. North Korea succeeding in murdering as many per capita as Mao slaughtered during the Cultural Revolution, and now that little totalitarian Orwellian pigsty is saber-rattling at us?!!!

    (I'm talking ratios in comparing N Korea to China -- no one can top the 65-85 million people slaughtered at the behest of Red China in the fifty years it has been a "nation".)

    Even Lincoln, the Great Emancipator, suspended habeus corpus during the Civil War. He was fighting to save the Union by suspending a few rights during the conflict in which the Union was at stake. Thank God he did what he did.

    Less than the same difference here at Guantanamo. Tough beans. What were they doing on the plains of Afghanistan anyway? And the stories I've heard about them doing sexual acts to the female US guards there is equally despicable for those Islamofascists who swear to the Koran.

    So what what the ABA thinks. They don't know what the meaning of "is" is.

    And don't rag on me because I'm a young conservative female and ex feminist who knows her history. I'm sick of people not knowing our American history and being proud of all the GREAT things about "God's last, best hope for mankind" (Lincoln's words) -- the United States of America.

    If you hate our country and have taken up arms against her, you deserve all you get.

    Frankly, I am more upset about the wholesale slaughter of innocents in the Sudan by Islamofascists than our men in uniform taking liberties with prisoners in Iraq. In a few years, people will cry that Bush did to the Sudan same way Clinton ignored Rwanda -- but at least Powell addressed the issue with the corrupt UN (who of course, did nothing because more than 75 percent of the UN is comprised of unelected dictatorships!!!)

    How come the infamous ABA can't do anything about getting the corrupt UN out of New York? I'm sick of hosting all them spies and foreign "diplomats" to free parking and diplomatic perks in NYC. Also sick of paying for upkeep on the building. Let's move the UN headquarters to Bosnia and see how many people still revere the money wasting, decadent organization it has become. Oops, I mean it always has been since it rubber stamped the Jews coming together to form Israel after the Holocaust.

    Or sic the ABA on the problem of the Sudan. Or the problem of all the foreign loans we've made to Europe since WWI and never got paid back. Make 'em a useful organization rather than this nose picking over Gitmo. Please.
     
  5. California macrumors 68040

    California

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    #5
    One more thing

    Oh, and about appeasement and fighting a war like you mean to win, not just getting your sword tip a little bloody.

    Look what happened when we pulled out of Vietnam.

    One million people died in the killing fields.

    Americans need to really learn the history of the world right now because the world, literally, is at stake in the war with Islamofascism.

    They want to murder us. We must defend ourselves. End of story.
     
  6. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #6
    oh really ? can i quote you on that ?

    i _will_ quote you on that...

    i hope you not only know american history...
    please...leave out the god part... you're a little bit late for that ...


    heard that before...

    to say that you know your history and then say something like this is at least comical (no offense)
     
  7. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #7
    California (is that irony?),

    It is appropriate that you are in a forum regarding computers, as your thinking is definitely binary.

    There is entirely too much in your post(s) to tackle, but I would briefly submit:
    That you cannot simply "take Bush out of the equation" for argument's sake, he has for better or worse, been our President for the last few years and his actions bear a seriousness and relevance that demand scrutiny and accountability.

    I find there is a difference in supporting a candidate because he belongs to a party that espouses the ideals/priorities you agree with and supporting a candidate on his merits as an individual politician. You may feel that lowering the tax burden and shrinking government is the way to go. You may feel that we need to be "tough" and proactive in dealing with those who would seek to attack the US or it's symbolism. That is your perogative and one with definite merit.

    If you look at Bush the individual, however, and his record, you will find that beyond the rhetoric Bush has done the bare-minimum of the task and unnecessarily made a mess of a symbolic, important and expensive War in Iraq. I really feel for many conservatives, as their choice is between Kerry, who as a Liberal represents a school of thought antithetical to your priorities, and Bush, who despite towing a conservative party line that appeals to many, is utterly incompetent at realizing said goals.

    As to the topic, what is the irony of going to a country to institute and foster "freedom" and at the same time denying it to a select amount of people in our custody. I applaud the acknowledgement, even war criminals deserve a fair and open trial. If they are truly guilty, the end result is the same.
     
  8. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #8
    Good point, since this is an illegal war, then we are not bound by any sense of human decency or any of the charters/international agreements we've signed? While the ABA may be somewhat self serving with this statement, there's no doubt that the lack of regard for detainee's legal rights is a very scary precedent. It could well be you the govt. comes for next given the current ashcroftian "kill all those who disagree with us" policy. Ah, but it could never happen to such an upright rightwing citizen as yourself........
     
  9. stubeeef macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    #9
    But we haven't heard from Judge Judy yet.

    So we should lay down our arms, cause the terror types are waging a legal war? Therefore they win? WhaWhaWhat?
     
  10. California macrumors 68040

    California

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    #10
    I'm not for Bush because he's an ostensible "conservative".

    With both Reps and Dems records on the immigration issue during a time of war -- well -- let's say it is all convenient hypocrisy. Convenient because they know how leaky our ports and borders are.

    My brother was probably the only Dem in the Army and he was at Gitmo, Afghanistan and Iraq and North Korea.

    Outside of that, I just don't feel sorry for the detainees at Gitmo. They may be misguided, they may be young, they may be Moslem but they aren't Americans and they hate America.

    Think about it, even with ALL our flaws, what country is better than America?

    Where do you have at least the ideal of a classless society, a society where merit and hard work still get you someplace?

    Can't think of anyplace off hand. So why do the women hating Islamofascists hate us?

    I just doesn't make sense unless you are a crazy murderer who thinks a just and holy God smiles on the murdering of innocents when you go to get your seventytwo virgin reward. Sorry they are so decieved but THEY started the war with US.
     
  11. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #11
    Switzerland, Iceland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, New Zealand and I'm sure there are a couple of others that could easily join the list. In all honesty though, they are homogenous societies for the most part and homogenity lends itself much better to a meritocratic society although there are exceptions like Canada. I would have included Australia in the list but until Howard and his fellow gits get kicked out of office, I don't think it would be a pleasant place to live.

    America is a great place for all its flaws but there other places that are greater.

    BTW, have you spent any time outside of the US borders? I find that the most rabid flag wavers are those that have traveled the least.
     
  12. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #12
    Well, this country is damned then.

    You really should read a little about the history of the middle east. 9-11 is just one event in a series, by isolating it you ignore at your peril, as has gw, the fact that life is a straight line, not a series of unconnected dots.

    The history of the west and of America is filled with murder of the innocent. It's so sad to see someone spew so much bile and venom as that only incites the murder of more innocent people.

    Where did you come from? Ususally newbies who start trolling like you have don't last long but it would be interesting to know where you came from. Another incarnation of sly/voltron
     
  13. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #13
    wow, does that reek of ********.

    not only is that quite a tour, but:
    1) when's the last time army troops were in north korea, and
    2) guatanamo bay is a naval base, w/ a lot of marines. is there really an army presence there?
     
  14. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    San Francisco
    #14
    I'm just waiting for the Newsmaxx and FreeRepublic links combined with "allot" of other nonsense. He's a woman this time - does that qualify as progress?

    On the topic of the thread, it is unfortunately a very important condemnation of the Bush administration and the Dept. of Defense that will be swept aside because the ABA must be some liberal front group for the Kerry campaign. If it was just the wing-nuts of the right it would be one thing, but I'm betting the so called liberal media will cave and give this unprecedented statement little or no coverage.
     
  15. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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  16. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #16
    Who? Saddam? Iraq? You do know they had nothing to do with 9/11, right? I could see where you would be confused (mislead), but this goes back way farther than you are apparently wanting to look.

    Or do all brown people need to be punished? :rolleyes:
     
  17. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #17
    innocent:
    [​IMG]



    GUILTY!!!
    [​IMG]
     
  18. stubeeef macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    #18
    California,
    Is that you carvel? posing as a numb right wing guy? satire with stinch?
     
  19. California macrumors 68040

    California

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    #19
    ? Whew.

    You guys are funny. I am who I say I am, a youngish female from California and, hate to break it to you, but there are PLENTY of women I know who believe exactly like I do -- alll converted ex liberals who are sick of the wimpyness and sexism of socialist thought as it corrupts everything the US stands for.

    Oh, yeah and my bro was in N Korea iin the mid nineties, the other countries later, I don't want to say anything else but you seem smart enough to figure out what branch of the Army he's in. Let's just say he's now in the NE with the type of position most career army guys dream of. I'm VERY proud of him.

    I've travelled lots. The mid east, Europe, South America. As for the countries you've mentioned, how come people still want to come here, will pay big bucks to come here? Is the immigration problem a big deal in Holland? Didn't think so. And most of those countries are having a terrible time with their socialist high tax rate thinking. Socialism/communism/Marxism doesn't work. Even just a little. It's a ponzi scheme that sucks initiative, individuality and creativity out of the common man -- not to mention the estimated 300 million people murdered by Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, Stalin, etc., etc. (These are conservative statistics from THE BLACK BOOK OF COMMUNISM, a book written with pain in the late nineties by some liberal French intellectuals, go figure.)

    I'm a Christian, guys. And an Ivy League educated one. I DO believe as Lincoln did that this is God's last best hope for mankind -- the United States. There has never been a better country concieved of on earth. I distrust the UN because it wants to suck sovereignty from the U.S. (France just proposed a WORLD WIDE tax to fight poverty administrated by the UN -- like that will work.)

    Ya know, right after 9/11, I got to see the America of my grandfather and father. We had spontaneous prayer meetings on the main boulevard (I'm in LA). Kids on skate boards were screaming "God Bless America" at 2 AM on the sidewalks. There was no political party --- we were one country that month -- we were all Americans.

    That's the America I love. That's the America my brother would lay down his life for. That's the America those guys in that plane headed for Washington DC laid down their lives for. Deep down, left and right, we know that this is the best place ever created. That's what I believe; you guys have a problem with that?
     
  20. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #20
    300 million? accounting, please.
     
  21. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #21
    Perhaps we are. I am who I say I am, though you obviously took little time to consider anything about me. For the record, I am a youngish male living in Oregon and, hate to break it to you, but there are PLENTY of women (and men) I know who believe exactly like I do -- all converted ex politically-inert individuals, who tend not to look at candidates through the prism of Party rhetoric. We are sick of the <insert scary adjective> of neo-conservative thought as it corrupts everything the US stands for. I do not pretend to know the definitive answer to what the US stands for.

    Oh, yeah and my bro was in Australia in the mid nineties, and other countries later, I don't want to say anything else but you seem smart enough to figure out what he was doing - he was on vacation. The beauty was, he was able to travel freely as an American, as Americans were generally well-regarded, as we hadn't pissed off a whole Culture by heavy-handed tactics in the ME and most of the rest of the world by doing such a piss-poor job of it. Let's just say he's now in the NW, with the type of position most guys dream of. He's married. He is also in Law school, perhaps so he can figure out how to emigrate to Canada. I'm VERY proud of him.

    I've travelled lots. Mostly throughout North America and Europe. As for the countries you've mentioned, how come those people seem to be entitled to basic health care and funded education, yet we here in the US have the most money and still cant manage to provide either? here, we will pay big bucks to aquire those services from private providers Is the immigration problem a big deal in Holland? I don't know. It would be irrelevant to any point anyway. Most of those countries are having a terrible time with their fair-weather friend, America. Their Social-Democracies, still adjusting to EU integration and expansion, are further subjected to an Economic downturn due to irresponsible US Fiscal Policy, the effects rippling across the Western, and even World Markets. Socialism/communism/Marxism are Political or Economic ideologies and rarely seen in real life, but when seen, are usually complex composites of ideology tailored to fit the needs of the governing and (less so) the governed. Although many on the political Right seem to look at any political thought left of Reagan as "Socialist" such an over-simplification is both innaccurate and insulting. Even just a little. It's a ponzi scheme that sucks initiative, individuality and creativity out of both the Candidate and the Voter -- not to mention the estimated 300 million people in the US whose lives are directly effected by the power of well-position rhetoric, despite their validity. (These are conservative statistics from LOOKING OUT MY WINDOW or READING ANY NEWSPAPER, a form of information-gathering written with pain in the late nineties by some "liberals" who were called that because they were attempting to do their jobs properly, and were faced with an well-funded partisan competition and a public with ADD.

    I'm a Christian, guys. Since I am a Liberal, I am obviously a student of Satan. My other Professors were also mentally-challenged. I DO believe as Lincoln did that more Presidents should sport beards. I also agreed with him stating that this is God's last best hope for mankind -- the United States. I also believe that hoping it so is much different from it being so, and that it would take work. There has never been a better country concieved of on earth. That does not make it the best Today. I distrust the US because it wants to suck sovereignty from the <insert [muslim] country>and marginalize an International Body such as the UN as it suits them (France just proposed a WORLD WIDE tax to fight poverty administrated by the UN -- like we would do that here in America. We dislike taxes.)

    Ya know, about a year after 9/11, I got to see the America of my grandfather and father. The America of McCarthy. We had spontaneous meetings on the Park Blocks or in a Resturant or coffee-house (I'm in Portland). We talked about the tradgedy and the effect it was having on the populace. People hadn't been this scared in America since the Red Scare of the 50's into the 60's, and once again some in Government were using this fear to push their own narrow agenda and vision of America. Questions were considered unpatriotic. Kids on skate boards were screaming " F**k Bush" at 2 AM on the sidewalks. This was no political party ideology --- just disbelief -- we were all Americans. And we were pissed off.

    The America I love, is not the one that I see. That's the America my brother, or my neighbor or someone's son would lay down his life for.

    The America I see is the one below the candy-coating. Where the dark sides of Capitalism, consumerism and Privatization are increasingly showing their hand. It is more difficult to find and hide the people you must f*** over and ignore the complaints of those you already have. That's the America those guys in that plane headed for Washington DC laid down their lives for. Deep down, left and right, we know that this is the best place ever created. That's what I believe; you guys have a problem with that? Well then expect and demand better than Bush.
     
  22. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #22
    personal experience: all friends who visited the USA said that they would never live there ... and some of them really adored the US culture before their trip in the US (overall it were 7-8 people who were there) and they came back desillusioned
    and yeah: those who visited it after 11/9 came back scared

    i had to grin about that line... ;)


    i wouldn't give my live for my country or any other country on this world..but austria doesn't really have enemies around... nowadays .. so the question is hypothetical ...
    i am quite happy here and have no reason to go somewhere else ...why should i ?

    ps: you _think_ that the US is the best place ever created...but i wouldn't us the word 'created' together with nations... i've got a problem with that and you wanting to force your opinions on me ;)
     
  23. toontra macrumors 6502

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    #23
    This is the sort of arrogant nonsense which makes the US increasingly despised around the globe. To claim to have religious beliefs and then bang on about how your country is the "best place ever created" is IMO an indication of an ideology devoid of any spiritual consideration.

    Wake up - this is one world - we are all the same. Some are more privileged than others, true, but to use that privilege to look down on the rest with a patronising, dismissive attitude is about as un-religious as it gets.
     
  24. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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  25. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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