a baseball rule confusion...

Discussion in 'Community' started by jxyama, Oct 14, 2004.

  1. jxyama macrumors 68040

    jxyama

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    Apr 3, 2003
    #1
    here's a description of a weird play i had in a softball game last night. i'm still not sure if the correct call was made, so i wanted to see other people's take on it.

    no out, runners on 1st and 2nd.

    a guy hits a low line drive to SS.

    runners hold.

    SS can't make the catch before the ball hits the ground, but fields it cleanly.

    SS throws to 2B. 2B touches the bag. 2B throws to 3B, touches the bag.

    we were awarded a double play because runners were forced... but i'm wondering if, by going to 2B first (making the runner on 1B forced out), the runner who was on 2B is no longer forced to go to 3B, so no out would have been recorded at 3B without tagging the runner. so no double play...

    confused...
     
  2. grapes911 Moderator emeritus

    grapes911

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    #2
    The runner going from 2b to 3b was no longer forced to go to 3b. He/She should have went back to 2b, thus a tag was required to get the runner out.
     
  3. emw macrumors G4

    emw

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    #3
    Agreed - double (or triple) plays only work if the first (furthest along on the basepath) runner is forced first. Otherwise, no force out is in effect at third base. The second baseman should've thrown to first, not third.
     
  4. grapes911 Moderator emeritus

    grapes911

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    #4
    If the 3rd baseman tagged the runner going from 2b to 3b, it would have been a double play.
     
  5. jxyama thread starter macrumors 68040

    jxyama

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    #5
    thanks, that's what i thought...
     
  6. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #6
    Wouldn't this count as an infield fly? Or was it a low hit?
     
  7. Kwyjibo macrumors 68040

    Kwyjibo

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    #7
    he said line drive so i'm thinking it wasn't above him at any point probably. This happens a lot in softball type games because the rules are a bit more lax .... i remember once we doubled up this kid on a fly ball even though he probably tagged but the ump never saw him.
     
  8. FlamDrag macrumors 6502

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    #8
    The infield fly rule would have caused the *hitter* to be out meaning that there would have not been a force out at any base.

    But this doesn't sound like an infield fly rule situation to me either.

    By all accounts, the runner going to third should have been tagged or the runner should have been safe.
     
  9. jxyama thread starter macrumors 68040

    jxyama

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    Apr 3, 2003
    #9
    yeah, it was really low. low slow line drive that landed barely past the infield. (SS was playing back since they were getting pretty good hacks at it to that point.)

    but our rec. umps are fairly bad. i don't think half of them know what an infield fly rule is or why it's needed. one time, we had a runner going from 2B to home but had to turn back to 3B because the ball got to home. catcher threw to 3B and our runner made it back before he could be tagged, but ump called him out without a tag because, according to the ump, "the runner was headed home already." WTF? :rolleyes:

    (and no, we don't have the rule of force out at home once past halfway between 3rd and home like some softball leagues do...)
     
  10. Les Kern macrumors 68040

    Les Kern

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  11. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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  12. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #12
    http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/definition_terms_2.jsp

    An INFIELD FLY is a fair fly ball (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or first, second and third bases are occupied, before two are out. The pitcher, catcher and any outfielder who stations himself in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the purpose of this rule. When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall immediately declare "Infield Fly" for the benefit of the runners. If the ball is near the baselines, the umpire shall declare "Infield Fly, if Fair." The ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of the ball being caught, or retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hit becomes a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul. If a declared Infield Fly is allowed to fall untouched to the ground, and bounces foul before passing first or third base, it is a foul ball. If a declared Infield Fly falls untouched to the ground outside the baseline, and bounces fair before passing first or third base, it is an Infield Fly. On the infield fly rule the umpire is to rule whether the ball could ordinarily have been handled by an infielder not by some arbitrary limitation such as the grass, or the base lines. The umpire must rule also that a ball is an infield fly, even if handled by an outfielder, if, in the umpire's judgment, the ball could have been as easily handled by an infielder. The infield fly is in no sense to be considered an appeal play. The umpire's judgment must govern, and the decision should be made immediately. When an infield fly rule is called, runners may advance at their own risk. If on an infield fly rule, the infielder intentionally drops a fair ball, the ball remains in play despite the provisions of Rule 6.05 (L). The infield fly rule takes precedence.
     
  13. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #13
    A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner. Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the "force" situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score. Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire's judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/definition_terms_2.jsp
     
  14. jxyama thread starter macrumors 68040

    jxyama

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    Apr 3, 2003
    #14
    macnut - thanks for the info. i thought i had the rules understanding correctly, but your post on the force play definitely clears things up.

    (and, no, i haven't forgotten that you are a yankees fan. :D but when thanks are due, i give them. ;) )
     
  15. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #15
    No problem, I'm not sure how much the rules differ from baseball and softball.
     
  16. jxyama thread starter macrumors 68040

    jxyama

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    #16
    there are some variation in the rules for softball, but for the most part, they are similar.

    i've played in a number of different leagues, some with sanctioned (e.g. ASA) rules, some with home made rules...

    one of my favorites:

    drawing a line half way between 3rd and home. if a runner crosses that line, he/she must go to home and it's a force out at home. this was designed primarily to reduce collision at home.
     
  17. junx069 macrumors newbie

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    Sep 27, 2004
    Location:
    Minneapolis - suburbs
    #17
    ^ Interesting rule, knew there were some differences between softball and baseball rules, but never knew any of them. Sucks about the call you got last night, some umps are just horrible. Its not brain surgery to realize how the force out works... better luck next time.
     
  18. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #18
    You know what they say about umps, blind as a bat.
     

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