A potentially ignorant question for Islamophobists

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by cleanup, Jan 12, 2007.

  1. cleanup macrumors 68030

    cleanup

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    #1
    If the Israeli-Palestinian conflict did not exist (lets just assume that relations were somehow reconciled), do you really think Islamic militant groups such as Al-Qaida would really be attacking the U.S.?

    After all, you don't see Malaysian, Indian, Bengali, Indonesian and Chinese Muslims waging a war on the west.

    While I am superbly ignorant on the subject, I believe one thing: Islam has its faults. All religions do. But the root problem most Americans are concerned with does not lie with Islam itself or Muslims, but just the circumstances surrounding the Palestinian conflict and the effect it has on Arabs.

    What do you think? Don't be ignorant. "Fact"s are only opinions here.
     
  2. someguy macrumors 68020

    someguy

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    #2
    I don't believe any middle-eastern "terrorist" groups are/have been attacking the US to begin with. I believe it was a sequence of staged events (9/11 among others) used to manifest fear and manufacture consent for us to be Over There™ doing all these wonderful things we're doing, for all our righteous Christian reasons. :rolleyes:

    First and last post in this thread. I hate political and/or religious discussions - everyones a freakin' expert. That said, the above is simply my opinion. I'm sure you like yours better.
     
  3. clevin macrumors G3

    clevin

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    #3
    i agree with OP, israel-palestine problem is the source of all the major violence in middle-east. its all rooted there, and spread around. Why created Israel in middle east at the first place? Its German who try to eliminated Jews, not middle-eastern ppl. why they target their revenge towards Arabs.
     
  4. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #4
    I've cleaned up your post a little bit, if my editing doesn't reflect what you were trying to say, my apologies. However, it was simply unreadable otherwise.

    The idea that Palestine is the source of all the violence in the ME is overly simplistic. Colonialism, oil, moribund Islamic societies, overpopulation, repressive ME governments, the Cold War, etc are all contributors to the current round of violence. Anyone who tries to condense the situation into a convenient and easily digested soundbyte does everyone involved a grave injustice. The Palestinian issue allows everyone a convenient basket in which to carry around the above mentioned issues.

    BTW, it wasn't just Germany or Hitler, it was also pre-Soviet Russia, France, England, Poland, Italy, Spain, and to a lesser extent the US who had it in for the Jews.
     
  5. Queso macrumors G4

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    #5
    The US is attacked by militant Arabs for two reasons. Firstly, successive governments have treated the people of the Middle East as something in the way of US global interests, and secondly the hypocrisy of those governments' unwavering support for Israel. The American people for a long time have been quite ignorant of what gets done in their name. Thanks to the Internet, more of them are becoming aware.

    9/11 was allowed to happen due to at least two decades of arrogance and complacency on the part of US authorities. Had the same security arrangements for domestic fliers been imposed as those demanded for people flying to the US, the hijackers would not have got past the departure gate. Lockerbie should have been the wake up call to tighten their act. Instead, fifteen years later the USA was caught with its pants down and nearly 3000 people died as a result.
     
  6. islandman macrumors 6502

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    #6
    I'll add the fact that the Jews/Palestinians have been fighting since the beginning of time. Israel was created where it is because in the beginning of time, that's where Jews lived. It has nothing to do with someone just randomly picking a piece of land in the desert.

    I agree with the OP that the Jew/Palestinian conflict is the root of the hatred towards "the West".
     
  7. clevin macrumors G3

    clevin

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    #7
    well, i can understand the idea, but its just weird for human kind to try to solve a 2000 old historical argument while ignore the situation at the time of 1946. How many jews in 1946 still have the idea of "oh, my god, we were robbed of our land", if they can remember an event happened 2000 years ago, it would be easy also to understand how arabs would feel when their land was robbed just 50 years ago.

    if follow the same logic, an native american country should be created inside US as well.
     
  8. Queso macrumors G4

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    #8
    And it should also be allowed to expand its borders at will if anyone tries to take it back from them. In the interests of security of course.

    And foreign countries from other continents are allowed to sell or give them aid in arms so they can protect themselves.
     
  9. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #9
    Islam is like a cancer with what it pushes, what it does and how it treats woman and shariia law is barbaric 1st century nonsense. Islam promotes revenge and jihad through its teachings.

    Religions are all brain washing primitive hocus pocus thats pushed so others can control peoples thinking & wallets. They all should be taxed is my view because they are nothing more then in the business of selling false goods in gods name. Of these religions Islam is one of the worst, I still can see all those Islamic thinkers cheering the thousands who were murdered in the twin towers. Just look up the word Jihad if you want to understand Islam.
     
  10. Queso macrumors G4

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    #10
    A jihad is a struggle. It doesn't have to be anything to do with weapons and fighting. A Muslim can have a jihad against their own character flaws.

    Note definition #1
     
  11. princealfie macrumors 68030

    princealfie

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    #11
    Thank goodness u are one of the very few left with that kinda superiority attitude. I'm surprised that you use a Mac :mad:
     
  12. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #12
    Islam is what it is, a sick twisted religion.

    Jihad = a War by Muslims against unbeleivers or enemies of Islam carried out as religious duty. Thats out of Websters not some Islamic spin machine.

    Now think about this one word Jihad, a war on unbelievers. How many billions of people are there on this planet who believe some other fairy tales? Go to any Islamic or Muslim society and see how men & woman are treated. Barbaric, Primitive ,Sick & Twisted. Its religious rule,screw that.
     
  13. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #13
    Get real, DHM. The teachings in the Old Testament are just as barbaric and vengeful. Besides, Islam did not begin until the seventh century.

    You fail to understand that the reason those people were cheering the fall of the WTC was because they identify US oppression with Israeli oppression. Their brothers and sisters, fathers and brothers have been disenfranchised, disempowered, disembowelled and dispossessed by a US armed occupying power for fifty years. How do you think they feel?
     
  14. Queso macrumors G4

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    #14
    DHM, I live in an area of London with a large number of Bangladeshi Muslims. I see no examples in my daily life of what you are describing. Also true of my many travels to Egypt. Not saying it doesn't occur, just that it's a lot less widespread than the picture you are painting, and certainly not typical of the average Muslim.

    Also if you actually ask a Muslim, they will tell you jihad does mean a personal struggle.
     
  15. someguy macrumors 68020

    someguy

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    #15
    EDIT: **** it. I keep forgetting how much I hate talking about this stuff. Someone can quote what I'd said before if they'd like, but I'm not having this conversation. Everyone is going to believe what they believe and it's just going to be one big argument. Hm, a discussion about beliefs and religion turned dispute. Go figure.
     
  16. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #16
    They could care a less for Palastine before Israel was created, where were all these people before for the Palastinian people? Its an excuse for hate & revenge, the religion pushes this.

    How many times have we seen in the U.S. mass crowds cheering for somebodys death? Yet its everyday in a lot of Muslim countrys. Please its a religion of hate & revenge. These people preach for the deaths of anyone not toting the religions line. remember those cartoons? how about the weeks of rioting in France, or calling for the death of America every single day in national prayers in Iran? Its a cancer on man because man is a animal and this religion encourages man to kill for lots of excuses. Give me Freedom keep this barbaric nonsense in 3rd world countrys.
     
  17. Queso macrumors G4

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    #17
    Poverty is what drives people to religion in most cases. When you live in a shack and the only nice building around is the church/temple/mosque, you're more likely to respect what the people inside tell you.

    So, let's redistribute the world's wealth and work to really educate everyone. Religion will be far less seductive as a result, and less warmongers will be able to pervert it to their own ends.
     
  18. cleanup thread starter macrumors 68030

    cleanup

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    #18
    DHM & someguy:

    Are you denouncing simply Islam, or all religions their concepts?

    Even if you're doing the latter, you cannot single out Islam. It's people like you who Muslims and the general public hates. You're stereotyping all Muslims and the entire religion with the acts of a few extremists. Let me point out that every religion has its radicals. The KKK was Christian. Black Americans were lynched in the name of God. Witches were burned in the name of God. All across history you can see evidence of oppression and tyranny from most (if not all) religions.

    Ironically, the "sick" and "twisted" factor you're talking about, Islamic extremist militants, are simply using the Qur'an in a certain context (which, admittedly, is one of its flaws, that it can be taken in different contexts) to justify their actions in order to solve an issue that they have a right to be angry about. The KKK, however, had no reason to lynch and burn Africans, yet still did it in the name of God. At least the Arabs in the middle east have a bonafide reason, even if their actions may be barbaric.

    You should pay attention to what I said in my original post:

    "...you don't see Malaysian, Indian, Bengali, Indonesian and Chinese Muslims waging a war on the west."

    Clearly, the problem does not lie with Islam itself. If that were true, as you suggest, then all Muslims would be "terrorists", and the next Pakistani man you see on the street will have every reason to murder you unless you submit to Allah.

    But that doesn't happen, does it?
     
  19. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #19
    The war on Terror is a war on Extreme Islam. Figure it out. Sure Bush has messed this one up but thats what it is.

    Other people who want to dictate to others their religion and are willing to kill others under Muslim & Sharia law???

    All you hot shot Muslim supporters need to look up Sharia Law and how people have been killed using it via Islamic teachings. GAG me with a spoon.
     
  20. Queso macrumors G4

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    #20
    Personally I see the War on Terror as a bunch of crooked arms dealers hoodwinking a not so bright born-again Christian and using his religion to further their business aims. But that's just me ;)

    Going back to my poverty comments, Sharia Law is so harsh because the conditions it comes from are too. The vast majority of Muslims living outside those harsh conditions don't want it, although they are quite justified in my view in rejecting many things Western society glorifies*. This, however, does not mean they automatically want Sharia Law.

    * Paris Hilton anyone?
     
  21. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #21
    When was this beginning of time exactly? Was this before or after the Hittite invasion?

    Furthermore, I disagree with the OP. The reason that Al Qaeda exists is because of the CIA's operations in Afghanistan after the Russian invasion. The reason that Osama Bin Laden states he wants to attack the US is because of our support of Israel and the presence of US troops in the Holy Land. However, I would also consider our support of the Shah, the Iran-Iraq War, not to mention our failure in Somalia.
    The Israeli-Palestinian conflict remains a singular focus in the Mid-East, but it is not the only reason many who live in the region see the 'west' as an oppresive force.
     

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