A smart decision for Apple w/ their new displays...

Discussion in 'Buying Tips, Advice and Discussion (archive)' started by spaceballl, Mar 17, 2004.

  1. macrumors 68030

    spaceballl

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2003
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    #1
    would be to drop ADC. Moving to DVI would make their displays more readily available to PC users. Also, Apple is trying to be all open source and standards based these days and this would be a good step in the right direction. Plus, putting the power and video signals on the same cable is kinda silly..
    -Kevin
     
  2. macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    #2
    Actually one cable makes things neat. I agree they should drop ADC and pick up DVI but I can't see a commercial reason why they would want to. I can't imagine displays being a core product for them so making them work with PCs to sell more is not really a big "must-do" item for Apple, especially when PC users can shop around and get better screens than the Apple ones, and at a lower price.
     
  3. thread starter macrumors 68030

    spaceballl

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    #3
    People CAN get bette displays for lower prices, but apple has a weird phenomenon surrounding their products right now. They are so "cool." That being said, most people won't dessert the PCs that they know... but a nice aluminum apple LCD might fit the bill just right...
    -Kevin
     
  4. macrumors 68030

    johnnyjibbs

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
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    London, UK
    #4
    Why can't they stick the ADC connector, plus a separate DVI one on the back so you can choose?

    EDIT: Oh yeah, because then I wouldn't have to shell out £99 ($200) on the ADC to DVI adaptor for my PowerBook :rolleyes: (unfortunately this is what deters me from getting an Apple display)
     
  5. macrumors 601

    stoid

    Joined:
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    So long, and thanks for all the fish!
    #5
    BINGO!! That's my problem too. Kinda defeats the whole education pricing thing.


    Interesting that the built-in spell checker doesn't object to the word 'kinda' yet it is obviously NOT a word
     
  6. macrumors 6502a

    titaniumducky

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    Nov 22, 2003
    #6
    You do know that ADC is just DVI+USB+Power, right?
     
  7. macrumors 6502a

    Rincewind42

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    Mar 3, 2003
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    #7
    Apple doesn't want to sell displays - they want to sell computers. Apple doesn't care that PC user X wants to buy an Apple display, because they want PC user X to buy a new Power Mac G5 with that display. Thus there is no reason for them to want to sell their displays to PC users other than a possible (and likely negligible for reasons stated earlier) increase in volume - and then it makes the displays less elegant when used with Apple hardware.

    One cable connection is extremely elegant, especially when you have a lab full of the damn things to setup and maintain. When everything goes through the computer's power supply you suddenly don't need a power strip per machine, you don't need to play "which black power cable is this one for" and you don't get the massively tangled mess of cables that seems to be the norm.

    I love the ADC connector and really really hope that it doesn't go away (and that the standard it is based off of finally starts getting some mass market acceptance).
     
  8. macrumors 68040

    Naimfan

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2003
    #8
    Let me get this straight--if I have a PB with a DVI connector, I can use it with a non-Apple (eg, Sony) LCD but NOT with an Apple display without buying a ~$200 adapter?!?!? That is stupid.

    And Apple should, IMO, care about PC users wanting to use an Apple display, if only on the theory that once the camel's nose is under the tent...

    Best,

    Bob
     
  9. macrumors 6502a

    Rincewind42

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    #9
    $99 adapter, but lets analyze this a little.

    Everyone wants to go back to DVI so that they don't have to buy an adapter to use with their non-ADC computer. However, if Apple does go back to DVI, they will have to ship a power adapter with every monitor again. How much do you think that is going to cost (certainly ain't free). Basically the majority of buyers don't need this because of ADC, thus Apple can save money on this (and presumably pass the savings on to you). The few that do need it buy the adapter for $99. Presumably if each display had an adapter with it, they would cost less but then everyone if they needed it or not would have to pay for it. And then the displays would likely be less elegant (because why have ADC if you ship DVI & Power supply - what ADC takes over for - in the box).

    So yea, PC users may come by and want to buy one of the displays. But if they do (and likely they are few of them) they can buy the $99 adapter too. Same for non-Power Mac owners, cuz lets get real here, if you don't own a Power Mac, you most likely don't need to buy a display (and most likely won't). Those who do own a Power Mac can get a more elegant experience and likely pay less for the same displays (ignoring comparisons to other manufacturers here).

    I'd say with all that, I don't see Apple dropping ADC anytime soon.
     
  10. macrumors 68040

    jxyama

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2003
    #10
    because DVI is becoming very common, i think it's about time apple forgo their "design elegance" (but at the expense of being proprietary) and make displays that have at least both DVI and ADC ports, and yes, a power brick.

    then, include the DVI/ADC adapter in all PMs.

    this way, everyone - PC users, PM users, non-PM Mac users - wins.

    power brick can't possibly cost that much - at least, not enough that it's worth pissing off/irritating many users. ADC, as of now, is too PM specific. i imagine many PB users would want to get an apple display...
     
  11. macrumors 68040

    Naimfan

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2003
    #11
    Rince--

    Fair response! Thanks for correcting the price--it actually does make a big difference, at least to me.

    I do still think that Apple should try to standardize their display connectors, because it would, financially, make more sense for me, as an Apple owner, to go buy a Sony/whatever display that takes a DVI input. For example, I can go purchase a 17" Sony display at CompUSA (hardly the least expensive place to buy one!) for $479, and not need the bloody ADC adaptor. The comparable Apple display is $599 from the education store, plus the adaptor.

    I understand the argument in favor of the ADC connector, but would it be that difficult to include a DVI connector as well?

    Best,

    Bob
     
  12. macrumors 68040

    jxyama

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2003
    #12
    currently, this is the situation:

    PM - has ADC output for primary display. DVI output for secondary display.
    (can the DVI port be used to drive a primary display? my impression is that it cannot.)

    PB - DVI output only

    displays - ADC input only.

    as mentioned before, DVI to ADC adapter is $100.

    basically, the situation now is that apple display is useful only for PM users without buying an adapter. with the adapter, it becomes useful for PB and PC users. in fact, i believe it's worse than that. unless the DVI port on the PM can be used to drive the primary display, PM will not be able to drive an external display digitally unless it's an apple display!

    it's not a matter of "oh, if you can afford a $1500 display, you can drop another $100." if adapters are needed for most people, then it's just annoying - if something is "needed" for most, it should be included to cater to most people.

    apple should simplify their display lineup to cater to most people. what should be done is to equip PM with two DVI ports and include DVI to ADC adapter with each unit. equip the display with ADC and DVI ports and a power supply.

    this way, PC and PB users can use the display with no adapters. PM users can also use the display with no additional adapters and they get the benefit of not having to use the power brick with the display - and should they choose to, they can use non-apple digital displays too.
     
  13. macrumors 68030

    johnnyjibbs

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    Location:
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    #13
    Power Macs don't require Apple displays. Although I have never owned a PM, I know that people can use them and not have an Apple display. I think there is an adaptor in the box for this.

    We all know that ADC is just DVI with USB and power in one but this elegant solution is also what makes it niche. However, I expect that Apple prefers to make its displays hard to use with a PC so that people associate them with Macs (and so PCs cannot look so cool). As I said before, put a DVI connector on it also and then that'll solve everything.
     
  14. macrumors 68040

    jxyama

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2003
    #14
    PM comes with ADC to VGA adapter... which is cheap, like $20. but that's a waste to have a videocard capable of putting out digital, but using it with an analog display...

    anyone with a PM care to confirm whether or not it can be used with regular, non-apple DVI displays as the primary digital display?

    also, as much as apple not letting PC users use apple displays without a $100 adapter to protect the "coolness" factor of apple, i think it's worse to see PB users hooked up to a dell or a sony displays.
     
  15. macrumors 601

    Chaszmyr

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2002
    #15
    PC monitors tend to have monitor controls on the unit, Apple monitors don't. That makes Apple monitors less ideal for PC use to begin with.
     
  16. macrumors 6502a

    Rincewind42

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    Mar 3, 2003
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    #16
    All PowerMacs come with dual-head capable video cards, with ADC & DVI connectors therefore you can hook up a single DVI monitor to a PowerMac and be done with it (I haven't experienced this first hand, but I have heard others do it, and have done it with PowerMacs that came with ADC & VGA connectors).

    Except how do you power the monitor? Might as well get the $99 converter at that point.
     
  17. macrumors 65816

    Laslo Panaflex

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    Tokyo
    #17
    Actually my G5 came with a DVI to VGA adapter, I had to go and buy a ADC to VGA adaptor from Dr. Bot in order to hook up my two VGA monitors. It is my understanding that apple does not even make a ADC to VGA adapter, this is becuase they want you to buy an Apple display. And to clarify, yes you can run your primary monitor from DVI connector. At first I only hooked up one monitor to my G5 with the DVI to VGA adapter.

    I am waiting for the new 23" aluminum display to replace my dual 21 VGA's. If there is a 30" and it is affordable I may get that, but most likely 23" will do for me.
     
  18. macrumors 68040

    jxyama

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2003
    #18
    you are right! i stand corrected...

    and it's definitely good to hear that you can drive just a DVI monitor from a PM. the description on the apple.com website certainly doesn't make it sound like it. kinda sneaky...

    makes it sound like the DVI port is for a second display only... :rolleyes:
     
  19. thread starter macrumors 68030

    spaceballl

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    #19
    Once monitors get bigger (and higher powered), it becomes a problem to power two large monitors through a video card's PCI slot... that's a lot of power. Why do you think Apple doesn't put two ADC ports on cards? because they can't. It's a good concept, but until displays start eating up half the power they do now or less, it's not viable. Even the apple 17" CRTs aren't really reccommended to use ADC... they pull too much power from the video card. DVI is a far better way to go.
     
  20. thread starter macrumors 68030

    spaceballl

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    Nov 2, 2003
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    Silicon Valley
    #20
    Are you sure? I once heard of this thing called the iPod...
    See my previous argument about power requirements and dual displays.
    1. If you are the administrator of a computer lab, you should be able to trace a cable to its computer.
    2. The tangled mess of cables is usually from peripherals, keyboards, mice, cameras, external drives, hubs, etc etc. not from a single power cable.
     
  21. macrumors 6502a

    Rincewind42

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    #21
    The Power for ADC doesn't come from the video card, it goes through a connector in the same slot as the AGP card. The power lines run through the video card, but that is not the same thing. As for larger displays, who knows what the future holds. It may end up that we use OLED displays 2 years from now that consume a tenth of the power that an equivalent LCD does and ADC becomes more viable than ever in this respect.

    Want me to amend my statement to say Apple wants to sell computers and iPods? I fail to see how it changes anything...

    1) Sure I can. Doesn't mean I want to. I can upgrade the RAM in a Power Mac 8500, but if you gave me the choice I'd make someone else do it.

    2) And most of those devices can be plugged into the monitor via it's built in USB connection, and removed from the computer (along with the monitor) in one plug. Even without cable tangle, I'll take the convenience of that any day.

    ADC is the connector "for the rest of us". Unless you can convince my mom that 1 cable is better than 3 cables when connecting a device, you can pretty much assume that Apple will continue to opt for 1 cable.
     
  22. macrumors 601

    stoid

    Joined:
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    So long, and thanks for all the fish!
    #22
    I understand the difference between DVI and ADC, but what has DVI got that VGS doesn't? I use the DVI-VGA adaptor to power the campus projectors for presentations at 1024x768, so there is obviously no size limit on the VGA connection.
     
  23. macrumors 603

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Location:
    The Cool Part of CA, USA
    #23
    In reply to the previous poster, VGA is analog, DVI is digital; DVI, assuming the cabling is good, removes the potential for blurriness in the image that can happen when converting an analog image signal to the digital pixels of an LCD display, as well as a host of similar analog to digital conversions. Think of it this way; the computer creates a digital signal, but until DVI had to convert it to be displayed on an analog monitor; now that monitors can be digital as well, might as well send that signal directly to them.

    As for the original question, it's a toss up the way I look at it. The contrast pretty much comes in when I look at the back of my G4 w/Apple LCD at work, and G5 with VGA CRT at home.

    At work, one cable goes under my desk. Unplugging my computer to drag it out involves unplugging one connection. And, I only need a very short cable on my keyboard. Plus, I can put my computer to sleep or turn it on by just tapping the monitor power button--very convienent. On the other hand, I can't put my moitor to sleep by itself (need to wait for the computer to turn it off) and I need to buy an Apple monitor.

    At home, I have a HUGE mess of cables snaking from my monitor down to the computer and power strip. If I had an ADC monitor, I would have two less cables going under my desk, about 5 feet less coiled cable, one more free USB port on my G5 (in fact, I could have two free ports and three less cables if I plugged my USB hub directly into the monitor), another free plug on my power strip, I'd be able to sleep my computer without reaching down to the tower's button, and it'd be a whole lot easier to move or disconnect stuff.

    However, the advantages of my current system are my monitor is compatible with anything that has a VGA port, and I can power it down manually if I'm doing a long download but I'll be out of the room.

    I love the cleanliness of ADC, but I can also see the advantages of Apple selling monitors without it--assuming Apple's next gen LCDs are a decent buy, I'll be torn between them and a generic DVI monitor. It'd also free us all up to use stock ATI/NVIDIA graphics cards, without having to worry about adapters or special connectors.

    If only Apple had some way of pushing ADC as a standard...
     
  24. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    #24
    if Apple displays didn't use ADC, I would have never bought one. The whole point of ADC is to reduce uneccesary clutter. One cable to the back of my computer is far nicer than a DVI cord, AC cord with a big lump (aka power brick) attached to the end as well as the need to buy another PCI card for USB ports...

    i'm just having trouble imagining the reason nobody is adopting the ADC port (oh yeah, it'd be admitting DVI is garbage).
     
  25. macrumors 68030

    cr2sh

    Joined:
    May 28, 2002
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    downtown
    #25
    Yeh.. the logic of this thread seems to be "Apple should dumb down their design so I can use it." This same logic has been used in the "Ipods need WMA support" threads... bend to the will of the masses. :rolleyes:

    You see spaceball, the thing about open source and the whole darwin logic is that the better design survives. Now what was your point?

    Why should Apple change.. PC users are the ones who suck.
     

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