Abortion - what are your views?

Discussion in 'Community' started by scem0, Mar 29, 2003.

  1. scem0 macrumors 604

    scem0

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    #1
    What do y'all think about abortion? Good? Bad? Undecided?

    Ill go 1st:
    I think abortion is perfectly fine. I don't see it as killing a
    person. I see it as saving them from a life they might not enjoy,
    and saving the mother (and father, in some cases) a lot of pain.
    And we must realize that the world is overpopulated, so it isn't
    like we are in a huge need for extra babies.

    So basically, I think abortion is a good thing, especially if the baby
    would end up having a bad life because his parents chose not
    to have an abortion.
     
  2. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #2
    well. this is going to be a heavy thread, so let's make sure to keep it civil and informative...

    personally, i feel that abortion is bad. in my opinion, it is killing a child.

    that said, i think most of it comes down to a disagreement on when life begins. it basically comes down to at conception, or not at conception. i feel that god has a hand in things, and that life begins at conception. any time other than conception is a grey area, as there is no real definitive point beyond that... as in, is it when the arm comes out? or the head? or week 14? or week 18? etc.

    also, though i consider abortion to be wrong (rape and incest are not so easily labeled as "wrong"), i don't know that making it illegal would solve things. personally, i feel that the roots of the "problem" (ie, teen pregnancy, and other unwanted pregnancy) need to be addressed. this is why, unlike many pro life people, i would certainly vote for a pro choice candidate (such as nader) if i felt that they would do more to fix the problem in the long run, which i think he would

    then there's partial birth abortions... which very few people agree with allowing, and apparently very few of those have ever been done, thankfully.
     
  3. howard macrumors 68020

    howard

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    #3
    i am pro choice.

    i think its completely up to the person.

    what i don't agree with is people who are not pro choice that look down on people who have had abortions. I think that so long as it is a legal thing to do you should at least respect the other persons opinion. i know that a lot of people are very hostile towards abortions which seems kind of strange. but like i said respect in that persons opinion i think is very important.
     
  4. scem0 thread starter macrumors 604

    scem0

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    #4
    Jello:
    Well, don't you think that sometimes abortion is the best thing
    for the child? If the child is the son/daughter of a 14 year old
    girl and a 20 year old guy who ditched the girl and the baby
    along with her. Wouldn't it be best for the child to not go through
    a life that will be much harder because of his parent's mistakes?
     
  5. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #5
    howard- i see your point... and i'm glad you didn't say "all pro life" people or anything...

    good job on steering clear of those generalizations

    my mom (very pro life) worked in pregnancy counseling centers and such, and gave support to people who were struggling with their kids.... whether it was diapers, baby food, or just emotional support...

    as for why any pro life people would look down on those who have had abortions... well i think that for the most part it's because we see it as murder, we see the baby as a life. that doesn't make it right to look down on someone, because the conditions are really never the same as straight up murder (ie, killing someone for money or whatever). this is why i believe compassion is key, and understanding. we need to put ourselves in these peoples' shoes and see what led them to feel so desperate that they felt they had no other option than to end the life inside them...

    the circumstances behind their decision make a great influence on how i feel towards them. if they are some 23 year old business woman yuppie who just doesn't want the burden of a kid at the time, then i say it's pretty bad. using abortion as birth control... if it's a 14 year old girl who's been raped, well then there's a great deal more psychological damage that could occur, either way she decides. and this is why i think these pregnancy couseling centers (whether "pro life" in nature or not) are really amazing...

    peace
     
  6. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #6
    i understand your point... and like i said in the post i just made (that went up while you were posting this), i think i pointed out that i certainly feel that circumstances affect my opinion of it.

    that said, i think it's very presumptuous to think that we can know ahead of time whether the person's life will be worthwhile.... there are plenty of amazing, successful people that come out of poor families, or from parents who were "too young" etc... i don't think that that is a predictions that we humans can make, and thus take a life into our own hands..

    now, that said... a 14 year old having a child from a 20 year old guy.... was it rape? was it "consentual"? i mean, it couldn't have been legal, and it's doubtul she knew the consequences, so i don't think that she should be punished terribly. and that's where the dilemma comes in... yeah, it would be great and idealistic to imagine that she could easily give the child up for adoption, but i realize this too has possible psychologically damagine consequences....

    so, in conclusion.... it's such a damn tough decision. :)
     
  7. scem0 thread starter macrumors 604

    scem0

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    #7
    I totally agree that abortion shouldn't be used as a form of
    birth control. But the 14 year old rape victim should definitely
    have an abortion, because not only mental damage will
    occure, but physical damage is likely to occur as well. Same
    with the baby. The baby has a much greater chance of being
    born prematurely, and a much greater chance of retardation etc.
    :(
     
  8. howard macrumors 68020

    howard

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    #8
    yeah jello i totally see where your coming from too...

    first of all yes compassion and understanding is something that this world needs more of. and as with any opinionated subject there are extremes...i totally agree that there is wrong in a married woman with a good background and good relationship with her husband just killing the baby because of that. and of course i agree with abortions after a rape. its basically now up to where the middle ground is. there is always grey area in subjects like these...what we need to do with compasion and understanding is make that grey area cross over so that pro choice people can understand that under some circumstances killing a child is wrong and pro life people can understand that in some circumstances abortion can be a good thing.

    by the way...do you have any feelings on the time inside the womb factor? ie a baby that gets aborted right away or a baby aborted much later in pregnancy.
     
  9. beez7777 macrumors 6502a

    beez7777

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    #9
    "It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so you may live as you wish." - Mother Theresa

    i am very strongly against abortion. How can you not see it as murder? You want a choice? How bout don't have sex if you're not ready. when does the kid get a choice? Don't get into "well, what if the mother's raped?" because that occurs in less than 1% of the abortions. Having an abortion is a terribly traumatizing thing, and often 20 years after a woman has an abortion she regrets it, and goes into a state of depression, becuase she not only realizes what she has done, but she starts to think..."if i hadn't gone through with that, what would my child look like, etc." i do not look down on people who ve had abortions, or for people that are pro "choice," but i fell awful and pray that these people will understand that this is morally wrong.

    You can not also say that "well, the kid might have a crappy life, so he's better off dead." there are plenty of people in this world who are trying to adopt kids. If we start to decide when life begins, then the next logical step is to decide when life should end. Does this mean that if we feel that an elderly person isn't living a happy life, regardless of what he thinks, he should be terminated? This is awful.

    if i haven't convinced you, maybe this site will.

    http://www.cbrinfo.org/
     
  10. iJon macrumors 604

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  11. howard macrumors 68020

    howard

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    #11
    what about killing dogs and slaughtering cows or even stepping on ants?

    is that not cruel too?
     
  12. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

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    #12
    howard- well the only real difference i see between having the abortion in the first weeks vs. having it in the second or third trimester is that the nervous system has developed more and is that much more able to feel the pain... that said, i feel that it's more than just the pain, as i've noted

    2 things about rape:

    1. we need to educate people and set up support systems for victims. as of now, far too many rape victims don't report it, and if they do, they get ridiculed, etc. this is truly sad...

    2. i have heard that during rape, a woman's body does have some sort of self defense type system where the anxiety makes it harder to conceive. but believe me, i do not doubt that many rape victims get pregnant. just thought it was an interesting thing

    beez- some people just do not believe that life begins at conception. they are no less compassionate, they just don't believe that... as howard has made clear, it's not that pro choice people (most) are heartless killers... rather, they don't equate it with murder for the "simple" fact that they don't think live begins then. also, it's terribly idealistic to think that people won't have sex until marriage. i'd like to hope for that too, but that's not the case....

    ijon- that simplification is not going to open anyone's eyes. as i've said and will keep saying. it's a relatively simple (in nature) disagreement about when the life begins. do not think that all pro choice people are "killers". likewise, pro choice people... please don't think that all pro life people are anti- choice. that is absurd. i am all for human rights. it just happens that in this case, i think that the baby is a human who cannot speak for themselves, and who's life often needs to be defended for them.

    ps. howard- i used to feel that vegetarians/vegans that are pro choice were hypocrites... now i realize that it's not that simple.... :)
     
  13. hugemullens macrumors 6502a

    hugemullens

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    #13
    I would say i am pro-choice. I believe thats a very personal desicion that the woman must make, and if it is morally wrong god will pass judgement, not me. I will respect the womans choice and will not look down at her in anyway. Just my 2cents.
     
  14. scem0 thread starter macrumors 604

    scem0

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    #14
    you can't just make a generalization like that though. In many
    cases (most) it can be classified as 'pro-death' but in many cases
    it benifits the mother and the child to have an abortion. Plus,
    adoption is just as hard on the mother as abortion is, if not
    harder. :(.

    She wasn't talking about abortion when she said this was she?

    I totally agree with her though... In 95% of abortion cases. :)
     
  15. howard macrumors 68020

    howard

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    #15
    yes i totally agree with what jello just said, and i wish i could have responed with such elquence instead of my stupid response.
     
  16. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #16
    i added a bit on the end about animals... :)
     
  17. howard macrumors 68020

    howard

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    #17
    yeah, i have a friend thats a vegan not because he thinks its wrong to kill animals but just cause he wanted to try it out for fun one day and it just seemed to stick. they say it can be pretty healthy too.
     
  18. scem0 thread starter macrumors 604

    scem0

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    #18
    I don't think vegetarians are hypocrits, I think they are insane.
    ;)
    Sorry, I just had to add that.
     
  19. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #19
    i'm a vegetarian/struggling vegan...

    but not just for fun. ha
     
  20. vniow macrumors G4

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    #20
    <sigh> men

    Well since I'm the only female to post in this thread.....


    I believe abortion should be the very last option above all others, there's too much at stake for it to be taken lightly, it should olny be used in extreme cases where the mother's and/or the child's life is at stake or some other extreme case.

    I believe that it is a moral choice and because of that I don't believe that the government has any right to make the desicion for you.

    I'd have to say I mostly agree with jello on this, I don't think it's generally a good idea, but making it illegal won't stop it or solve anything.

    It's really interesting to see what men have to say about it since they don't have to go through pregnancy or whatever, it's easier to brush off for them....

    On a similar note, do any you know that many fertilized eggs get flushed out of the body during ovulation and often get flushed down the toilet?
     
  21. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    #21
    What about cases where the birth has the potential to kill the mother? Abortion, as a last case measure, would prevent needless suffering and possible death.

    Wrap your mind around it: abortion can, in some cases, save a life.
     
  22. howard macrumors 68020

    howard

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    #22
    Re: <sigh> men


    i didn't know that info at the bottom there but good point.

    yeah i would definitly support my girlfriend if anything like this ever happened...if she wanted to keep it i would support her or if she wanted to abort it or adopt it i would support her. i know it is partly my descion too but i think that the woman definitlely has to deal with it a lot more than the guy.

    another very good point rower...and all these points should be taken into consideration
     
  23. scem0 thread starter macrumors 604

    scem0

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    #23
    very good point............... And once again, this isn't a black
    and white issue, although it CAN the mother, it also can hurt her,
    or do nothing (negative) at all - physically.
     
  24. shadowfax macrumors 603

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    #24
    i agree that this is an issue about when life starts, as you said before, and i think that these extenuating situations are utterly useless.

    why?

    because, if the baby is nothing more than a tumor that is about to become a human being, then who the heck cares? so she got raped, yeah, let's deal with it, take that little useless growth out of there!

    if the baby is a human being, then how does the fact that the girl was raped justify murder? the state allowing the killing of an innocent to justify the rape of an innocent? that doesn't work at all, not even remotely, in my mind.

    furthermore, bringing up this argument is useless because it accounts for, what, 1% of all abortions done in the US today? this stuff is rare compared to the way it's practiced in the US, so if you are pro choice supporting the current situation, realize you are supporting not just abortions for rape victims, but convenience ("birth control") abortions too.

    i disapprove of people using the "saving a child from a screwed up life" argument" too. that totally forgets that extraordinary people come out of the harshest situations, even those where they are deformed in some way. you don't have a clue whether someone is going to be a menace to society when they are born. A gentle, docile viennese painter killed how many jews and other non-aryan races? that genius lives in a trailer on $10,000 a year? no, that's impossible! good people only come from sheltered households!

    finally, i have a question. can anyone prove that an unborn baby is NOT a human being, conclusively and incontrovertibly? if not, do you think it's justifiable to say, "hmm, this is kinda iffy; let's let them be destroyed, even though we may not know what we're killing." to me, that means that you don't care whether or not they are children, because you have no way of knowing they aren't.
     
  25. daniel77 macrumors 6502

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    #25
    I believe that killing someone is a crime, regardless of the situation. There is always hope in cases of medical trauma.

    I am extemely happy that the U.S. government passed legistlation, making abortion of a baby once it has left the womb illegal. i know it has something to do with that.
     

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