Alternatives to violence.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Neserk, Jun 3, 2004.

  1. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #1
    I had a lot of time on my hands at work today. I picked up this magazine. It was interesting because they had an article that talked about what I had said on a thread about the people of Israel and how they differ from the government. Check it out

    http://www.yesmagazine.org/20spirituality/20toc_main.htm
     
  2. Voltron macrumors newbie

    Voltron

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    #2
    Sorry it doesn't work versus suicide bombers.
     
  3. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #3
    Sly, you get a 'F' in reading comprehension...thanks for the link, Neserk...I found it a very interesting read...
     
  4. Neserk thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #4
    You are welcome. I plan on subscribing. I also want that particular issue (issue #20) The stories have helped restore my faith in humanity. Now why can't the news report *those* kinds of stories?
     
  5. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #5
    Oh that's easy. It's because of the leftist media bias in this country. You know, if it supports leftist ideas publish it till the presses explode or melt down or something, and if it supports conservative ideals bury it. Kinda like this one. Oh wait, this was buried.... Wait a minute, does not compute....
     
  6. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #6
    Neserk, I follow Wink's points. To a certain extent I agree with the interpretations of Jesus' meanings in the Pacifism vs. Passivity argument; in some ways I've done that sort of "misbehavior" myownself.

    On a personal level I'm gonna respond with violent force if gratuitous violence is offered to me. Here, I'm talking about the rare event that could occur, like mugging or robbery. Absent force, I'm quite happy to seek peaceful resolutions to conflict.

    The Israelis have never, ever, had an opportunity to try Wink's version of Pacifism. Never. From Day One, there has been an unending Arab effort at genocide. It is being taught even now, in many madrassahs, as reported in many news sources.

    For most, Pacifism only works in the absence of direct force; in the absence of active violence. By "work", I mean that one lives through the episode.

    I dunno. One thing that stands out through history is that "It takes two to not fight. It only takes one to start a fight."

    But according to Wink's treatise, we are the Romans, and the Iraqis are the ones who should be practicing Pacifism...

    'Rat
     
  7. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #7
    It's been a good long time since the world has seen the successful use of pacifist resistance against severe violence.... :(
     
  8. Abstract macrumors Penryn

    Abstract

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    The success rate of using such methods is never reported because it never sells newspapers. Someone getting attacked after an argument....now THAT is news.
     
  9. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #9
    We used to work this subject over back in my own college daze. I think the consensus was that as an ideal, Pacifism is good. The reality of the hardwired biology of "Fight or Flight" precludes Pacifism as any sort of survival method.

    I ran across an article about the murder rate in Los Angeles. Among other things, an interview with a gang member who was in prison for murder indicated he was fearful of the younger crop of teenagers now coming into the gangs. No morals or standards, by his view of morals and standards.

    How can Pacifism work when the gangbangers are sniping at police, just because they're police?

    'Rat
     
  10. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #10
    i've often wondered... what would the world have thought if we had had a huge peace rally, a hands across america type of thing in response to september 11th, similar to the peace rally after the madrid bombings...?

    it's interesting to ponder if nothing else.
     
  11. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #11
    I imagine "the world" would have thought we'd gone nutzoid.

    Note that the world was favorable toward our early efforts in Afghanistan. It's the "Phase II", there, plus the WMD/Iraq/prisoner abuse that's stirred up the furor.

    En passant note that when you look at the interactions of the various tribes in Afghanistan and the three primary factions in Iraq, Pacifism looks like a highly desirable way to end one helluva lot of bloodshed. It would then be a piece of cake for us to "Get the hell out of Dodge."

    'Rat
     
  12. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #12
    IMHO it takes more guts to put your life on the line without attacking or defending yourself than it does to put your life on the line taking a weapon into battle. But Pacifism as a strategy only works if the resistance is visible to the general public, and if the attackers are able to be shamed into stopping. That isn't always the case though, and there are definetly times when violence is the more appropriate course of action.
     
  13. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #13
    Isn't pacifism a belief rather than a "strategy"? You can't commoditize it. Either it "works" in all circumstances or it doesn't. Saying pacifism is a strategy is like saying vegetarianism is a strategy.
     
  14. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #14
    It can be both. Think Ghandi and MLK for examples of using it strategically.
     
  15. mcfudd macrumors member

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    #15
    What a bunch of wimps. Violence is an excellent alternative to getting stepped on.

    Take natural selection for example. You do not see many lions surviving who "take care" of sick zebras. No.

    The sick get eaten so the strong of the species can continue on.
     
  16. mcfudd macrumors member

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    #16
    Perhaps more police and more prisions are not the answer. There is a deeper problem that needs solving.
     
  17. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #17
    I recommend Regime Change...
     
  18. mcfudd macrumors member

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    #18
    It may take longer than that. We may have to wait until the children of the baby boomers are in power before real change occurs.

    Even the boomers know the war on drugs is a bunch of crap ... but the us government is trying to control the debate by restricting freedom of speech.

    I just go to Amsterdam when I want to smoke. Their country has not fallen apart after nearly 20-30 years (???) of coffee shops.
     
  19. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #19
    Their soccer team has... :D
     
  20. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #20
    Okay, mcfudd, what's the deeper problem? What are some of your proposals to solve it?

    'Rat
     
  21. Frohickey macrumors 6502a

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    The reason that Ghandi and MLK used pacifism is that they did not have any other means. Even Ghandi said "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."

    MLK used pacifism because he knew that if he were to turn militant, that would give the opposition the excuse to use violence against him.

    If the militant Iraqis/terrorists were to not use violence, what would they gain? I would bet that they would lose everything since it would be status quo and back to the established governments and order in the Middle East. That is not something they want. What they want is to topple/change the existing power structure in the Middle East, and they have invested too much in using weapons to suddenly change.
     
  22. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #22
    That's a low blow...BTW I saw that England tied w/ Japan recently? :D I root for England every World Cup, and I am always dissapointed....to tie this into the thread topic, perhaps some soccer fans should heed the advice given...
     
  23. mcfudd macrumors member

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    I must run so I cannot do justice to this reply.

    But, I was refering to the unemployment, lack of educational opportunities, racism, drug abuse, and institutional/sociological barriers that keep members of gangs down (and cause them to join in the first place).

    I think these are some of the underlying problems that lead these individuals to violence. The guns do not make them act-out. The guns are just the way they are expressing the rage that already exists.

    We could go a long way in solving these problems if we spent less money on wars, and a little bit more on education, job training, drug treatment programs, etc. Again, it is a big problem, one that will not be solved here.
     
  24. mcfudd macrumors member

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    #24
    hey, I read that Beckham is the new Gillette spokesperson.
     
  25. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #25
    Indeed. Funny how you could apply all this equally to Gaza, Baghdad, etc. ;)
     

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