Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

sacrilicious

macrumors regular
Jul 10, 2003
114
0
Portland, OR
Originally posted by IDTheft
Maybe Apple is getting rid the the notebook line of computers. His Jobness had a change of heart and decided that Apple should concentrate on desktops only.:rolleyes:

No change of mind...we just misunderstood. It's the [last] year of the laptop.
 

jaedreth

macrumors 6502
Jul 11, 2003
295
0
In Iraq now
Year of the Laptop

Again, the market is going *towards* portables. Not away from.

Again, this is all Moto's fault. They just made revision G of their f*@#&%! chip last month. G. A, B, C, D, E, F, THEN #$*@#& G.

So we'll have Rev G PPC chips in a Rev A(well, by now it could be Rev C) Powerbook line.

Jaedreth
 

rainman::|:|

macrumors 603
Feb 2, 2002
5,438
2
iowa
it's so much fun to watch you psychos go nuts when expecting a long-awaited update... and i mean that in the best way :) i too doubt the amazon message means anything other than "out of stock". which isn't new news...

pnw
 

ssamani

macrumors regular
Nov 20, 2002
104
13
UK
PowerBook G5 Heat Issues

Right, we're looking at new PowerBooks being at 1.25 or 1.33 Ghz? But everyone says the 970 would be too hot. To quote from ArsTechnica:

"And if you consider the fact that the 970's power consumption at 1.2GHz is a mere 19W, it's almost certain that we'll see a future notebook from Apple based on the new chip. "

http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/02q2/ppc970/ppc970-1.html

From this article, G4e (7450) Power dissipation @ 1Ghz: 30W.

So if the chip is smaller (more room for heat sink), produces and uses less power, why on earth can't we see the 1.2 - 1.4 G5's in PowerBooks and iMacs?

I no understand.... is it just a case of other stuff, e.g., bus speed, etc. Now the ArsTechnica coverage also says that the bus speed does not have to be 1/2 the processor speed, it could be 1/3 or 1/4, which would be perfectly fine for the PowerBook or iMac.

Also the more chips Apple orders from IBM, the cheaper they would become through volume ordering, surely. And the 1.2 - 1.4 G5's would be the cheapest of them

If anyone recalls, the G5 was supposed to debut at 1.4 - 1.8 rather than 1.6 - 2.0. Where did all the 1.4 chips go?

Can someone flame me for being stupid so that I will understand.
 

Zuckuss

macrumors newbie
Jul 20, 2003
22
0
Chi-town
Re: PowerBook G5 Heat Issues

Originally posted by ssamani

So if the chip is smaller (more room for heat sink), produces and uses less power, why on earth can't we see the 1.2 - 1.4 G5's in PowerBooks and iMacs?

If anyone recalls, the G5 was supposed to debut at 1.4 - 1.8 rather than 1.6 - 2.0. Where did all the 1.4 chips go?

Hot Damn I hope you're right! I'm not sure on the validity of your power consumption facts, but I sure hope so.
 

jaedreth

macrumors 6502
Jul 11, 2003
295
0
In Iraq now
Power Consumption

He is right on Power Consumption.

Why do you think dualie towers are so quiet and cool?

What apple is waiting on are 1) Motherboards for PowerBook G5's, and 2) System Controllers for PowerBook G5's. Now keep in mind, the system controller will be hotter than the actual processors in this case.

I don't know when to expect System Controllers for the G5 PB. That is likely to be a tightly guarded secret by Apple and IBM.

However, I do happen to know we won't see the logic boards until January. Which means, we might see them by the end of Jan, or just announced in January, shipping Feb or March.

That's why these PB's will be MOTO not IBM. Not heat issues.

Jaedreth
 

AllenPSU

macrumors regular
Feb 24, 2003
168
0
USA
Re: Power Consumption

Originally posted by jaedreth
He is right on Power Consumption.

Why do you think dualie towers are so quiet and cool?

What apple is waiting on are 1) Motherboards for PowerBook G5's, and 2) System Controllers for PowerBook G5's. Now keep in mind, the system controller will be hotter than the actual processors in this case.

I don't know when to expect System Controllers for the G5 PB. That is likely to be a tightly guarded secret by Apple and IBM.

However, I do happen to know we won't see the logic boards until January. Which means, we might see them by the end of Jan, or just announced in January, shipping Feb or March.

That's why these PB's will be MOTO not IBM. Not heat issues.

Jaedreth

Do you know what a 1.8 GHz G5 draws in power? If its as high as the original G4 it won't be ideal for a laptop. I thought I read that IBM was working on a low power G5 that was due Q1-2004.
 

jaedreth

macrumors 6502
Jul 11, 2003
295
0
In Iraq now
Not quite

The 1.8 is only marginally faster than the 1.4, and the consumption on the 1.4 is under 20W (sorry, forgot the exact figure guys, haven't woken up yet).

So the 1.8 is gonna be a bit less than the G4 1Ghz.

What is due later (not necessarily Q1) is a *die shrink*.

Die shrinks always mean less wattage.

It's not an underpowered processor. It's minaturized. There is a difference.

At this point, they don't even need to make underpowered G5 processors for PB and iMac because they can just use lower MHz and be just fine. 1.4 low end, 1.8 on high end.

I could see 12" powerbooks having 1GHz G5, 15" have 1.4 GHz G5, and 17" having 1.8 GHz G5 in the revision after this one, nee
March or so.

Jaedreth
 

lucidfuse

macrumors newbie
Jun 23, 2003
5
0
15 inch powerbooks

The Apple Store in Cambridge, MA no longer has a 15 inch powerbook on display.
 

freundt

macrumors member
Apr 8, 2003
87
0
Seattle
Re: 15 inch powerbooks

Originally posted by lucidfuse
The Apple Store in Cambridge, MA no longer has a 15 inch powerbook on display.

No freakin' wonder.. they probably removed them out of shame.. Couldn't in good conscious sell such an old, outdated notebook for over 2K.

grr...

Ok, I give it till tomorrow... then I buy a voodoo.

_f
 

ssamani

macrumors regular
Nov 20, 2002
104
13
UK
Re: Not quite

Originally posted by jaedreth
The 1.8 is only marginally faster than the 1.4, and the consumption on the 1.4 is under 20W (sorry, forgot the exact figure guys, haven't woken up yet).

So the 1.8 is gonna be a bit less than the G4 1Ghz.

according to the ArsTechnica article the 1.8 G5 consumption is 92W (substantially more than the 1Ghz G4's 30W). I am intrigued as to how the 1.2 can only be 19W as ArsTechnica claims. But if it is true, who is going to object to "only"1.4Ghz G5's in a PowerBook...

I can imagine they are waiting until they have PowerMac's shipping before they release the PowerBook, but everyone assumes the PowerBooks and iMacs will be G4 cos of heat and power. What have I missed, are ArsTechnica's figure wrong?

Sanj
 

AllenPSU

macrumors regular
Feb 24, 2003
168
0
USA
Re: 15 inch powerbooks

Originally posted by lucidfuse
The Apple Store in Cambridge, MA no longer has a 15 inch powerbook on display.

Wow, when was the last time you were there? I thought they had a bunch about a week ago.
 

AllenPSU

macrumors regular
Feb 24, 2003
168
0
USA
Re: Not quite

Originally posted by jaedreth
The 1.8 is only marginally faster than the 1.4, and the consumption on the 1.4 is under 20W (sorry, forgot the exact figure guys, haven't woken up yet).

What is due later (not necessarily Q1) is a *die shrink*.

Die shrinks always mean less wattage.

It's not an underpowered processor. It's minaturized. There is a difference.

Don't know where you got the "underpowered" phrase from, but you're saying the bottom line is the G5 has a low enough power consumption to work in a laptop between 1.6 and 1.8 GHz. Thats great.

That is significantly better than previous new generation chip releases. I am sure that someone is looking at the lower power G5s for future porable use.

I believe IBM stated that they were having problems with the equipment at the Fishkill plant which would produce the smaller die G5's. I will have to go back and check the stuff I get from IBM. I do know that Fishkill lost power during the blackout and that will slow things up a bit. (At least a few days and maybe even longer if they lost their purifiers.)
 

AllenPSU

macrumors regular
Feb 24, 2003
168
0
USA
Power Levels

Originally posted by jaedreth
The 1.8 is only marginally faster than the 1.4, and the consumption on the 1.4 is under 20W (sorry, forgot the exact figure guys, haven't woken up yet).

Just found the IBM's published power levels on the G5:

1.8 GHz @ 1.3 Volts = 43 Watts

That is too high for a portable

1.1 GHz @ 1.1 Voltes = 19 Watts
(This is below IBM's target frequencies)

Still a little high but you can make it work.

These are based on the .13 uM CMOS technology with their copper interconnects.

From these specification I don't see a G5 running above 1GHz in a laptop and probably won't see one until the Fishkill plant is up and running.

For those of you who really need the specs:
http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780
 

Zwiggles

macrumors newbie
Aug 20, 2003
5
0
Vancouver, Canada
Could someone please let me know what they think might happen with the pricing of the 15". Will the 1.0GHz drop down close to the price of the current 867MHz, and the 1.25 down to the just above the 1.0?

Could some pro provide some insight? What happened after the last update?

Cheers
 

Phil Of Mac

macrumors 68020
Dec 6, 2002
2,036
0
Washington State University
Re: PowerBook G5 Heat Issues

Originally posted by ssamani
"And if you consider the fact that the 970's power consumption at 1.2GHz is a mere 19W, it's almost certain that we'll see a future notebook from Apple based on the new chip. "

So if the chip is smaller (more room for heat sink), produces and uses less power, why on earth can't we see the 1.2 - 1.4 G5's in PowerBooks and iMacs?

Okay. The reason we know there will be no G5 PowerBook for "quite awhile" is that Greg Joswiak (who one Mac site dubbed "Greg the Hardware Bunny", for what it's worth) said so. However, I have been thinking of the reasons why, and I'll share them with you.

In order to use a completely different processor, you need to update and redesign the system architecture. While it's possible to cut corners and hack a new processor in (Apple did this with the original PowerBook G3, which was a hacked PowerBook 3400), it's a sub-optimal thing to do. The hacked PowerBook G3 didn't sell, and was made out of desparation in 1997, when Apple was dying. Now that Apple's in better shape, Steve, being the artist he is, doesn't want to throw together a hack.

That said, Apple could have had a PB G5 out by now. It would have been low frequency (but higher than the G4). However, they would have designed an entire system architecture to do that. Fair enough, right?

Okay, so they release it. Now they have to redo the whole thing AGAIN when IBM jumps to 90 nm (at which point you can put faster G5's in the laptops). Faster processor speeds mandate faster bus speeds, which mandate yet a faster chipset and such. In the meantime, there will be increasing HyperTransport integration and other such things that'll make it a pain to simply design the same computer twice.

And what does Apple gain, by releasing PowerBooks right now that are G5's but relatively slow G5's? They saturate the market with relatively crappy G5's, so when the good G5's come out later, no one buys them, and Apple has just wasted millions to design the same thing a second time.

Apple's going to design the PowerBook G5 once, and they're going to do it right, with the 90nm processor. When they do, they'll make millions. Billions! While at the same time living out their dual personality as both a business (which won't do stupid things and lose money) and a team of artists (who want their products to be pretty good.)

I suspect that when Apple found that a PowerBook G5 would run 1 GHz, 1.2 at the most, the entire PowerBook team threw their hands up and said "why bother". Especially when 90 nm is going to give them a much better chance.

In an unrelated note, never trust analysts. If they really knew what they were talking about, they'd be making their fortunes in the business, instead of being analysts.
 

gunnmjk

macrumors member
May 25, 2003
56
0
Bay Area, CA
DONT YOU GET IT?!

Steve Jobs said that THIS was the year of the powerbook. What he meant, was that this was the year of THESE powerbooks. He wasn't planning on releasing any new ones until next year =P
 

bradz_id

macrumors member
Nov 16, 2002
68
0
Tasmania, Australia
The PowerPC 7450 does consume a lot of power but it is an old model of the G4. The New PowerPC 7457 consumes less than 10W at 1GHz. The 7457 is the biggest upgrade the G4's have had because not only has it had a die shrink from 180 to 130 nm, it is also uses SOI technology and copper interconnects as opposed to CMOS and aluminium interconnects. This is a really good G4. The only disadvantage is the Frontside Bus speed which sux!
 

Sun Baked

macrumors G5
May 19, 2002
14,937
157
Re: Year of the Laptop

Originally posted by jaedreth
Again, the market is going *towards* portables. Not away from.

Again, this is all Moto's fault. They just made revision G of their f*@#&%! chip last month. G. A, B, C, D, E, F, THEN #$*@#& G.

So we'll have Rev G PPC chips in a Rev A(well, by now it could be Rev C) Powerbook line.

Jaedreth
Not quite that bad. :p

That was the 7450 that seemed to nail every letter from A to G.

We've moved onto the 7455. :rolleyes:
Code:
7450, Vger		1.0	0x80000100	(ID Code: 0X0000001D)
			1.1	0x80000101
			1.2	0x80000102
			2.0	0x80000200	(ID Code: 0X1000001D)
			2.02	0x80000200
			2.03	0x80000200
			2.04	0x80000200
			2.1	0x80000201
 7451, Vger		2.3	0x80000203	(ID Code: 0X0000001D)
 7441, Vger		2.1	0x80000201	(ID Code: 0X0000001D)
			2.2	0x80000202
			2.3	0x80000203
 7445/7455, Apollo 6	2.1	0x80010201	(ID Code: 0X0000001D)
			3.3	0x80010303
			3.4	0x80010304
 7457, Apollo 7		1.0	0x80020100	(ID Code: 0X0000001D)
			1.1	0x80020101
[edit - the tabs were a PIA, was from the update PPC PVR Register Settings pdf]
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.