Anti-War Kerry Supporters, Watch This...

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by kuyu, Aug 27, 2004.

  1. kuyu macrumors 6502a

    kuyu

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    #1
    I know most everyone here will dispell this as "right-wing propaganda". It is, in part. However, I find it amazing what Kerry will say when it benefits him to do so. After watching this, I think Kerry might come out as "anti-Kerry" so he could capture the Bush votes.

    http://real.stream2you.com/rnc/RNC082304.mov

    Watch the whole thing. It gets better at the end. ;)
     
  2. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #2
    Okay, I watched that whole tiring thing, and the best thing I can say about it is that at least there were no new Swift Boat lies.


    This is supposedly indicative of Kerry's "flip-flop", but it sounds more like he was just as p.o.'d as the rest of us about being misled by our president's phony "intelligence".


    From Kerry's own web site:
    And, in fact, Bush himself, at the urging of Rumsfeld, was prepared to veto this bill if it Congress did not dump the expanded health benefits for soldiers that it included.


    I've seen this one taken out of context several times already. The full quote is: “I am, yes, in the sense that I don’t believe the president took us to war as he should have, yes, absolutely.”

    So again, so what? Kerry voted for the war before he realized that he, like we, were being deceived by so-called "evidence"?

    Or to put it in the words of people wiser than me:

    The theme from Flipper was cute, though. Puerile, but cute.
     
  3. kuyu thread starter macrumors 6502a

    kuyu

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    #3
    Yeah, most of it is "Micheal Moore'd", that is, taken out of context via clever editing. However, the one from 1998 when Kerry makes the case for war with Iraq is the most damning piece. He sounds just like Bush.

    And the oreilly factor one: "He is and has acted like a terrorist, and he is engaged in activities that are unacceptable... I think we oughta put the heat on Saddam Hussein. I've said that for a number of years, uhh, Bill. I criticized the Clinton administration for backing off of the inspections when Ambassador Butler was giving us strong evidence that we needed to continue. I think we need to put the pressure on no matter what the evidence is about September 11th" This is especially Bush-ish. Sounds like he is saying Saddam IS a terrorist and that he is developing WMD, thus requiring inspections.
     
  4. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #4
    Actually if we're going to be strict about our definitions Dubyaw himself counts as a Terrorist:

    Terrorism:
    Function: noun
    : the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
     
  5. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #5
    I don't know why you think so. There always was a case to be made for war, but there was also a case for avoiding it, or conducting it on terms that would produce a victory in the war on terror instead of a defeat.
     
  6. kuyu thread starter macrumors 6502a

    kuyu

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    #6
    Very true. However, Kerry clearly made the case "for" war. Only after the beginning of the primary and polls that clearly showed a majority of democrats opposing the war did he begin to advocate "avoidance".

    I agree the two are different. However, I think the point of the video is to illustrate that Kerry's positions changed only after he realized the unpopularity of his original contentions. Thus his new position regarding the failures of the Bush camp. By condemning Bush's methods, not actions, he is able to cleverly avoid real confrontation regarding his statements that endorsed such action in the past. Also he is able to carry the anit-war vote while not being anti-war himself.

    He didn't make a career of politics by being a dumb politician, that's for sure. ;)
     
  7. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #7
    what scares me about kerry is the convention. all but a very few speeches (kucinich, sharpton, and maybe a couple others) sounded more like rallying speeches you'd give to your troops before sending them in to kill.

    i have a feeling that once the rnc is complete, we'll have seen 2 13+million dollar conventions centered around war and killing.

    surprise, surprise.
     
  8. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #8
    This is a disingenuous statement. There is no inconsistency whatsoever in the position that a war may be necessary if peaceful means fail.
     
  9. kuyu thread starter macrumors 6502a

    kuyu

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    #9
    I see what you mean, but do you believe that there was zero "reposturing" on Kerry's part during the primaries?

    It is my contention that Kerry, because of his openly anti-Saddam/pro-war stance prior to the primaries, knowingly and willingly shifted his message toward the stance of his constituents. Namely, that the war was OK but Bush is handling it incorrectly. Then the war was wrong because we didn't do everything to avoid it.

    I stated that Kerry is a brilliant politician because of his ability to do just that. He was, in his eyes, way ahead of Congress in pushing for tougher enforcement of UN resolutions against Saddam and unilateral action if the security council failed. Thus, he can't ever be cornered into one camp or the other. His strategy allowed him to be whatever would get elected, pro or con.
     
  10. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #10
    Did you ever consider that this position might actually be right? I admit to being not entirely objective about this because it was my position long before I heard John Kerry say it. Again, you seem to be finding fault with the perfectly logical and time-honored position that war is caused by the exhaustion of all alternatives.

    I also have to assume from your argument that you never vote.
     
  11. kuyu thread starter macrumors 6502a

    kuyu

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    #11
    I vote. Yes, I believe war is just what you stated. A last ditch effort effort when other means have failed.

    What I'm talking about is Kerry's throttling back about how "bad" Saddam was. You have to give me that one.
     
  12. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #12
    Ok, but you also have to give me that Bush has throttled back on how "bad" Saddam was too. From 'we know where the weapons are' to 'evidence of weapons of mass destruction related program activities'.
     
  13. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #13
    And from Osama "dead or alive" to "I don't care where he is." Now, there's a flip-flop for the ages.

    Kuyu, my point here isn't to play a game of political gotcha. The reason I asked you if you ever vote is because you seem to be so down on any politician who has ever shaded anything he or she said. Or maybe that's condemnation you reserve for just a few.
     
  14. kuyu thread starter macrumors 6502a

    kuyu

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    #14
    Mactastic, definately. Bush's message has been changing over time regarding Saddam, Osama, et al.

    IJ, I'm not trying to "come down" on Kerry here. I've called him a brilliant politician. That's not a bad thing. The best politicians are boldly vague. For instance, Kerry supported the action in Iraq, just not Bush's method (at least I think that's his stance... see what I mean?).

    Again, I believe the point of the movie is to illustrate Kerry's obvious move away from being a "supporter" into being a "critic" and visa versa depending on public sentiment. One could make a similar video about Bush, and I'm sure it's been/being done.

    Like any good piece of propaganda it's been edited, taken out of context, and structured to guide people to the author's conclusion. Sort of like that other "documentary".... ;)
     
  15. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #15
    Well I'd have to say you are staking out a few boldly vague positions yourself. You started out by condemning Kerry as being two-faced on the subject of Iraq, but now have shifted to offering some left-handed praise of his political skills. Sorry, but I did notice this tactic -- which to me appears to be a method of avoiding my question to you about whether his position, or even his shaded positions if you insist, was or were in fact the right one(s) or no.
     
  16. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #16
    In other words, they are both politicians. Well, I'm glad we've got that sorted out... :rolleyes:
     
  17. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #17
    And once again, for the cheap seats: Before accusing a politician or anyone else of shading or altering their positions, it would do well to figure out whether the positions they took made sense at the time they took them. This kind of analysis is totally absent from the criticism of the Kerry's various statement on Iraq.
     
  18. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #18
    I agree.

    But who's in the cheap seats?? :rolleyes:
     
  19. kuyu thread starter macrumors 6502a

    kuyu

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    #19
    That's why I'm going in to politics IJ! ;)

    Was Kerry's position right? Before the war, given the intel and Kerry's own admissions that a unilateral regime change in Iraq might be necessary in the future, I'd say that he was right to support the President in Iraq. And in hindsight, knowing the Saddam's WMD programs were either destroyed by the Israelis or covertly smuggled to terrorists with money to spend (see 9/11 Commission Report), I think that Kerry's position of opposition to the President is based solely on political gain with the accomodation of hindsight. If every President knew the course of the next four years before they occured, difficult decisions would be easy. However just like Bush, Senator Kerry needs to stand by his difficult decision to send America to war. This is not Bush's war and this is not Kerry's war. This is America's war.

    While I understand Kerry's current opposition to the unilateral action to force regime change, I also understand that his position at present day is based in a need for popularity and a willingness to use hindsight intelligence data to form his "current" opinions.

    Was that a good "politicians" answer???
    ;)
     
  20. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #20
    Supporting the principle of going to war may be conditional on not jumping the gun and not making such a bollocks of the whole postwar thing. And the whole decision may be predicated on the truth of what the intelligence reports say - after they have been skewed enough to support the Administration's prejudices. This is a not unreasonable position to take.
     
  21. toontra macrumors 6502

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    #21
    That's an interesting piece of revisionism. As I understand it the best estimation is that the vast bulk of these weapons were destroyed by Saddam himself in the two year period following the first gulf war. LINK


    Wrong. Without Bush (or someone equally embroiled in the neo-con philosophy) this war would never have taken place. This was Bush's war in almost every sense. C.mon, if you believe it was the right thing to do, you should be eager to give credit where it is due!
     
  22. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #22
    Hearing Iraq called "America's War" gives me a serious case of the yips. If it is in fact "America's War," then this is the most obvious indicator of the errors in diplomacy and judgment made by the Bush administration in its planning and execution.

    As far as the argument that Kerry has taken his positions for "political gain," this once again dodges the important question of whether the positions he's taken over the last couple years were in fact the right views to hold at the time they were expressed.
     
  23. acdninjapan macrumors newbie

    acdninjapan

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    #23
    I want to see dead burnt bodies and feel veins and bones crunch between my teeth. I want to kill! KILL! KILL! KILL! KILL! and began jumping up and down on my seat. Pretty soon the whole convention was jumping up and down on their seats and shouting "KILL! KILL! KILL! KILL!"

    GWB and Kerry both came over and patted me on the back and said "that's our boy!"

    I think Arlo just had a stroke....
     
  24. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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  25. acdninjapan macrumors newbie

    acdninjapan

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    #25
    How about David Bromberg's bullfrog?

    Have you ever woken up with bullfrogs on your mind?
     

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