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Any sign that the OS X team has taken it's head out of it's behind in ML?

Discussion in 'OS X Mountain Lion (10.8)' started by blow45, Apr 6, 2012.

  1. blow45, Apr 6, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012

    macrumors 68000

    I 'll quote another user, almost verbatim, because he's expressed all my concerns too very well. Apple have a lot of work to do to provide options and fix the crap they introduced with lion. To what the op said I will add:

    -fixing and providing options for mission control

    -fixing showing recent files in click and hold on dock and in app expose, allow the option to only show recent files within the file, open recent menus. And not either not keep recent files at all or show them on a right click or click and hold (what a huge privacy intrusion this can be to just right click with someone else around you and they 'll be able to see whatever you 've been doing recently in every app...)

    -Restore in app expose in click and hold. Disallow entry to the apple campus for a month to the idiot who decided that click and hold would act the same as right click (cmd click) thus making these two different ways to interact with the dock act the very same way.

    -fixing the smb shares issue for connecting to a standard windows network

    -fixing mail memory leaks that make it go up to 2gb of usage

    -fixing preview crashing (never seen preview crashing so much in any previous recent os x version), ----

    -fixing, modifying contacts and calendar apps so they are not a ui and usability disaster,

    -finally coming up with pixel doubling if they can't bring real resolution independence

    -offering at some point some option to enlarge a few sets of os font in the interface such as the ones in menus, get info, in safari, in mail and a few more others instead of forcing vision impaired users to zoom in (distorting the heck out of the display) and out all the time.

    -releasing an os that users won't have to wait until .4 version for it to be relative bug free.

    -they DON'T however have to come up with some real backbone technological innovation such as a modern file system as zfs, we have NOT come to expect this of Apple inc. anymore, maybe we would have expected it from Apple Computer, but not Apple inc. So no sweat guys, keep hfs+ for another 10 years if you want.

    Lion contains some very poor marketing/ios influenced ui choices, some poorly imagined, thought out and implemented ideas and at best some well intentioned ideas implemented very poorly. It lacks polish everywhere and has proven the buggiest release since pre tiger. If ms had put a 200 strong dev team to work on snow leopard I don't think they could have done a worse job.

    So far they have remained as clueless and oblivious apparently to the right mess they have made with lion, and to be frank I don't think the head of OS X dev. team Creg Federichi (sp?) seems to be even remotely adequate for his position. Tim Cook should go Steve Jobs on him, and just replace the guy. Because he's done a very bad job indeed. Sadly I don't think apple have come to their senses with mountain lion. I am quite sure a lot of people from the team must have the same grievances but if the leadership isn't getting it they can't speak up.

    Of course there are also those in apple's demographic here who adore the notes app (I guess it's good that after waiting for it for years our mails are not going to be mixed with our notes, makes for a welcome change to not try to show an email to a colleague at work followed by a remember to buy condoms note on top...), notifications (thank you growl and android), twitter integration, and the new wallpaper...and to who ml and lion seem just fine and dandy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. :)

  2. macrumors 6502a

    Cool story bro. Really though, if you find that much wrong with the OS, then why use it? Even better yet, why go about trumpeting that its a horrible OS, basically because you said so. The fact is, a large portion of users, from all proficiency levels, have no issues and complaints, and certainly not as many as this. What makes your opinion any more, or even less, valid, or subjective for that matter, than theirs?
  3. macrumors 68000

    Wrong on many counts. It's not because I said so, it's because a vast number of apple's user base has been saying so all over the web, if you are not smelling the coffee it doesn't mean it's not brewing. Also it's not because I said so, it's because I am making a case for it, if you don't agree with my opinion how about replying to my points with a counter opinion but with arguments? That's the whole point of the forum isn't it? Opinions and counter opinions. As far as objectivity goes, i can't see for example how poor smb compatibility introduced in lion creating problems with shared printers, finder access and search of smb networks is subjective and a matter of opinion. I can't see how memory leaks in mail and constant crashes in preview (also reported a lot elsewhere) are subjective opinions. Of course there's subjectivity in some of what I am saying but then hardly anything is objective strictly speaking.

    Oh and save me the comment if the os is bad why use it. I am using it because it used to be great, it's the mess apple have made of it I don't like, not the os itself. I am also using it because apple despite having paid them a lot of money for (the crappy according to non other than SJ himself) mm decided that icloud would not be included in sl and required me to uphrade for basic device sync funtionality. OS X was the very reason I switched to mac a looooong time ago, the os x team needs to get their act together and address the problems they introduced for so many long time os x users as well as new users with lion effectively.
  4. macrumors 65816


    People keep trying to ignore how much OS X sucks lately but at the very least it is a fact that Apple has dropped the ball with last couple releases and it has gotten progressively worse. The instability got fixed a bit with dot releases but there are still some glaring issues - look up the thread where people complain about not being able to unlock system preferences for example.

    Here is another experience - Lion is supposedly fully supported on Core 2 Macs. I have a MBP from 2007 that was running Leopard happily with its 2GB RAM. Then for some reason I feel I should put something more modern on it for the family to use - and I can't find my SL disks so I go with a USB install of Lion/10.7.3.

    Boy was it a mistake - with 2GB RAM, 5400RPM HDD it is DOG slow - lanuchpad literally lacks any fluidity (its on 8600M for crying out loud), boot is slow, app opening is slow etc. Then I replace the HDD with a fast 7200RPM one and add a Gig of RAM. Still slow - some improvement but not usable yet - because for regular Mail/Firefox/iTunes load it is swapping with 3GB RAM!

    So I finally put Windows 7 on it - comparatively, it flies. Had to jump through some hoops to get it installed - removing extra boot sector from ISO, hacking up the boot camp install from Lion as it isn't supported on x64 Windows for this machine etc. But in the end it was well worth it.

    Apple really needs to get their act together.
  5. macrumors 6502

    All I can say is that Apples money maker is the iPad and iOS devices and luckily for Apple the halo effect brings those people in to purchase Macs so it makes sense that Apple would want to have some similar features among of all its products as the halo effect users might expect. So the people that don't hate lion are probably those who were drawn in by other iOS devices. For the halo effect users the ones who would be brand new to a Mac probably love the features that are similar to their iOS counterparts.
  6. blow45, Apr 7, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012

    macrumors 68000

    Resume, autosave, auto terminate apps are all ios inspired but they haven't been implemented well on the mac. They need to have the option to be turned off and they have to be refined. No one is going to go, oh great this works like my ios device when they have ten previously opened quicktime windows pop back up to them. I work with a lot of other people in my job and I am always scared ******** of opening preview and having whatever pdf or image I was looking at pop back up to me, that pretty girls cleavage photo, the mag unrelated to work, etc. etc. It has to have an option to disable resume behavior. Don't they realize this already?

    No one is going to go (since people are also coming from windows) oh great now I cannot save as and change name and location to save file, I ll duplicate instead then save the duplicate with another name then shut the original.

    No one is going to go oh great, cmd click (right click) and click and hold have the same functionality and there's no way to see open windows of an app (except by double tap and hot corners) in an in app expose and people I might want to share a mac with or show them something on my mac can look at all my recent usage history simply via my cmd clicking an app to quit it.

    Versions doesn't have an ios counterpart . Bugs and memory leaks are features more present than ever on os x, and not at all common so much on ios. I can handle the calendar looking like as ios app (sorta) even if it means it will make my workflow harder than it used to be on the mac, and I can handle the launchpad I can get out of the way. I cannot handle the lack of colour cues on the sidebar simply because apple marketing thinks it will attract more ios users. It won't.

    The halo effect meant ios users were willing to give os x a try. I don't see how a monochromatic sidebar is going to make people go, uh, great, it looks like ios I like it. Even "side bars" (split screens as in mail and settings) use color cues (inbox, trash, archive all have colour cues in mail, as in settings too). Whoever has gotten into their heads that sidebars in OS X look more akin to ios if they are so incredibly hard to navigate without colour and look like a monochromatic mac circa 1980s simply has their head in said orifice I mentioned in the title of the thread.

    To have to install windows 7 to your older mac for it not to be a dog, like another member said before is beyond sad for the current state of os x, and it's a slap in the face to os x that used to be so great. No wonder lion has been called os 10.7 vista. The things that make it good are whatever existed before in os x, the things that make it a pain in the a. to work with are whatever modifications (except kernel and security ones) apple made from snow leopard to leopard that are poorly implemented and anything but polished.

    Ipods and ios didn't create a halo effect because people switched and os x looked like their ipod or iphone, but because they switched and found a powerful, effective and polished os with its own merits. Sharing some interface and os behavior elements is not a bad idea, but they have to be implemented well and according the different usage and requirements of a tablet/phone os and a computer os.

    If they want to make os x so much like os x why didn't they go all touch on their desktop and macbook line as well since people are accustomed to it via ios? Because as Steve said we've tested this and it doesn't work for this type of device. Well they should take a long hard look at how well the ios cross pollination has worked for OS X and refine it. But this requires sound judgment. Nothing in the leadership of the os x team at the moment has demonstrated to me that sound judgement in the overall functionality of the os is something they are particularly good at. Gruber and Syracusa at ars technica can kiss their ass as much as they want to about how great lion is, their user base has been saying otherwise and they had better listen to them though at some point.
  7. macrumors 6502

    I made no arguement against any of what you had posted. All I said was that the people that like lion are probably the people that don't know how OS X was before Lion. I didn't mean to attack any of what you had said. A disable resume feature would be great. I also don't like the monochromatic finder either. It's just well ugly. I was only trying to say that iOS users that might have been drawn in by the halo effect might appreciate some of the similarities. I meant no offense to any of what anyone else had previously said.
  8. macrumors 68030


    I jumped onboard the OS X train with Panther, and have found that each version of OS X (including Lion) has improved upon the previous one.

    My standard response to this is why you don't just close Preview/Quicktime windows (⌥⌘W or just ⌘W for a single window) instead of the whole app, since the system takes care of closing the app behind you automatically, once there are no more windows open.
  9. macrumors 6502a

    I've been using OS X since 10.3 and like Lion, so there goes that theory. Really, to complain that the lack of colored icons completely ruins your workflow??? Its called basic reading comprehension or, failing that, shape recognition. A small icon with colors and shaped like a document is no easier to see than a monochrome icon shaped like a document.
  10. macrumors 6502

    I happen to love to lion. There are just a few things I don't like though. I love ML even more than lion. But there are just those two things that I don't exactly care for. But overall I find the almost all of the features in both lion and mountain lion to be pretty great. I also don't have a problem with workflow. I just wouldn't mind some colors. So no the black and white has not hindered my workflow at all.

    But I can see that I'm already being attacked so I'll probably just quit here.
  11. macrumors 6502a

    I mistakingly mentioned the workflow issue thinking it was you, my apologies. And while I can say there are minor things I'm not fond of in Lion/ML, to accuse the dev team of being idiots, inept, or anything of the sort is just plain silly and childish. Also, to make this thread somewhat useful instead of just whining, you can disable resume on a per app basis with a short little terminal command, which I'm surprised no one has automated into a little app.


    The command in question:

    defaults write com.apple.Preview NSQuitAlwaysKeepsWindows -bool false
    So now blow45 needn't worry about exposing that he looks at the pr0n on his work machine. :rolleyes:
  12. macrumors 6502

    I meant no whining in any of my posts. Lion/ML have been great I believe. Resume doesn't exactly annoy me there are just a few times that turning the computer back on results in a million things opening right back up however, unlike blow I have nothing to hide. But I meant no whining or anything of that nature in any of my posts I was just trying to get in on the thread without being attacked. I also never accused the dev team of anything.

    By the way thank you for the apology.
  13. macrumors 68030


    The problem with Resume is that it simply doesn't work as advertised yet. Its purpose is to get you back to the exact state you left the desktop at when you restarted/turned the computer off. In reality, that's not what is happening. Whenever you had an app still running, even if it didn't have any windows open, Resume will open a new window for that app. That's clearly counterproductive. I haven't heard any news whether improvements have been made in this regard with Mountain Lion. As it stands, it's not nearly as polished as it ought to be.
  14. macrumors 6502a

    I don't have that issue at all. Safari can be open with no windows, and upon restart, its open with no windows. Mail is the exact same way, if it had windows open, they appear, if it didn't then they don't.
  15. blow45, Apr 7, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012

    macrumors 68000

    Points well taken. :) But you are not attacked here as you claim on a later post, so don't play the victim card. Apple's insistence on not correcting the problems they introduced with lion is under question here.

    No others and myself have been making a series of points why our work flow is being compromised by lion, out of which you picked one. And you are wrong, basic ui science demands colour cues, hence colour cues are present in all split screen panes in ios too, and they were so in os x. That's why apple's own human interface guidelines insisted on colour cues. "Reading comprehension" should not be required when you want to access a sidebar, that's the whole point, that when you drag 20+ of your folders with customized colour icons in the sidebar they retain a miniaturized image of the customized folder and they don't all revert to a monochrome generic folder that you have to read through 20+ items to get to where you want to go in seconds.

    Maybe you need to get it up once in a while and look at porn yourself it might help in not making snarky comments (just post the terminal command) and claiming people who want side bars with colour cues as is the case in ios and was the case of os x lack "basic reading comprehension" skills.

    Because apple is not my cyber nanny to think for me, if I want to free up resources quickly I want to quit the app or force quit it (and in preview in lion force quits are becoming a very common thing...) and then have the option to not have it NOT resume where I left off. Simple as that. I don't want to have to close all windows (as simple as it might be) and then quit the app or wait for the os to quit the app for me. Options should be available for resume to not be there to begin with and quitting to mean quitting and not resuming. There's no point for a system btw to autoquit an app taking 60mb with 8gbs of system memory, there might be a reason in a tablet os such as ios but not in os x.
  16. macrumors G3


    OS X is total GUI disaster now. Packed with gimmicky features which do nothing but get in the way or confuse.
  17. macrumors 604


    It works exactly as intended. What you seem to want it to do sounds a lot like waking from hibernation or sleep. Those already exist.
  18. tkermit, Apr 7, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012

    macrumors 68030


    Safari doesn't open a new window if one wasn't open before, but Mail definitely does for me (I just tried it again). As does Stickies.app for example. There are other Apple apps I seem to remember behaving like this but I would have to check. And unfortunately a lot of my 3rd party apps. I almost always see Word creating a new document, and the main window of 'The Hit List' opening.

    Then it was intended to work inconsistently, i.e. some apps will reopen a window if one wasn't open before, others don't ?!

    Except that you are sometimes forced to restart for system updates for example. And then it would be nice to have a properly functioning Resume.

    Which is why the process lingers on, and is only killed if all memory is used up
  19. macrumors 604


    I haven't had that issue and I log in and out quite often on a daily basis. This is the first I've heard of it.
  20. macrumors 68030


    So if you leave both Safari and Mail running, each with no more windows open – what happens after logging out and in again, if you enable the option to "reopen windows when logging back in"
  21. blow45, Apr 7, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012

    macrumors 68000

    As as aside, can someone tell me is there's a terminal command to disable show recents history from cmd click or click and hold on the dock, and only have it within file open recent. Right now I can only "choose" to forgo all my recent files history to not have all the documents history appearing with a right click from the dock as far as I can tell.

    bingo. :) They pop back up.

    So your point about closing all windows instead of quitting doesn't stand if system resources are freed up only if the system has used up all it's memory and has already started page ins and outs. Am I not then justified to want to quit an app myself and free up the resources myself? All the more so since word with a few documents chrome and safari with 6-7 tabs each and memory leaks in mail can bring lion to its knees?
  22. macrumors 68030


    It happens much earlier than that – it wasn't quite correct how I worded that.

    ⌥⌘Q if you want the windows discarded, ⌘Q if you don't.
  23. Mal
    macrumors 603


    I'm just going to stop right here, no need for me to jump into the other parts of the discussion. This part, however, is flat-out absurd. The users (and haters who are not users) who are jumping on the bandwagon of "Lion/Mountain Lion sucks" are in the tiny minority. I doubt if they all refused to buy Macs ever again that the difference would even be noted on Apple's bottom line. That doesn't mean there aren't some valid points (though I do disagree with many of the complaints that I see), but don't even try to suggest that there's a massive uproar. They're a tiny, but extremely vocal, minority.

  24. macrumors 6502a

    Exactly. And it makes perfect sense; the VAST majority of users who have no problems aren't going to come on here and post threads "OMG, its so awesome!!!!!1!!!" They're going to use the OS, love it, and not worry.
  25. macrumors 68030


    I'd welcome an option to ungroup windows. And I'd like to see the view for the spread gesture improved.

    Don't really see the "huge privacy intrusion" here. If you don't want people around you to see what you've been up to, you should just disable showing recent files in general. Having said that, Apple could provide a "defaults write" command for that I guess. I'm always a little weary when it comes to adding an option here and an option there, and suddenly you have the IE advanced settings panel in Windows.


    I think it used to be also possible to use the scroll gesture on top of a dock icon to activate App Exposé. I'd kinda like to see both methods for activating app expose to return..

    Never experienced that myself. But I think we can all agree that that shouldn't happen.

    I must say I'm much less annoyed by Preview crashing in Lion to the point that I don't notice it much, simply because I get everything I had open back when I restart it, thanks to Resume. But, sure, nobody wants to see apps crashing.

    I wouldn't call them a "usability disaster", but I'd like to see the 3-column-layout return in AB, and get the sidebar back in Calendar. I also don't care much for the whole skeuomorphic thing, but whatever, if it at least works the same.

    Not quite sure what you mean, since the HiDPI modes are already usable under Lion, yet don't really serve a purpose without a 2x/4x resolution display.

    Would be nice. This doesn't seem like a Lion specific issue though. In my opinion, Apple doesn't have a great track record there, period.

    Sooner or later Apple needs a new file system. I'm fairly certain they're working on it.

    Too much hyperbole for my taste.

    ML doesn't seem like much of an upgrade over Lion (judging from Apple's advertising material), but I guess we'll have to see whether smaller improvements make it worth it and how much it ends up costing.

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