This was a mistake on my part in that I did not preface that statement with "In my experience." It is not just a random opinion though but one based on an informed history and a lot of experience. Although I gave it up on simple logical grounds, I have been a vegetarian for large periods of my life, have lived with many vegetarian and vegan vegetarian people and most of my friends and acquaintances today are also vegetarians of one kind or another. So this part is more of an "informed opinion" based on nearly fifty years of living and experiencing vegetarian lifestyles.
Incorrect. The "higher" on the food chain you eat, the more resources it takes to produce what you consume. You may not be able to eliminate killing to survive, but you are able to reduce and minimize your impact. While "guiltless" is impossible to achieve, eating vegetarian or vegan reduces your environmental impact, and the volume of resources necessary to ensure your survival. You directly reduce the "unethical" damage you cause, and you indirectly increase the survival of organisms lower on the food chain by increases the resources available to them.
Here you are kind of switching the ground of the argument a bit in that I said the ethical argument of "not eating stuff with faces" was specious. You have presented an alternative ethical argument here (resources) that I hadn't thought of. So I would say my first argument is still right, but I agree with you that it is more ethical to use less resources.
But as you kind of say here:
I feel better knowing that I have minimized the amount of destruction I cause to survive as reasonably as I can (although it's not an ethical question for me anyways).
This can be viewed as more of a logical argument than an ethical one.
What's better, drinking the baby formula for an animal that grows up to be hundreds of pounds, or eating a food item that you yourself have described as part of our "natural" diet? Is this is a trick question?
Here I was trying to reply to that question that Vegetarians often throw in peoples faces about meat and dairy products. Perhaps this wasn't entirely fair, but then I find the references they make kind of insulting also.
People (vegetarians) that I know are prone to say stuff like
"You know there's feces in that hamburger don't you?" or
"You know there's pus and blood in your milk don't you?" as a way to shock and a way to say that the product is "gross." The implication is that munching on carrots and drinking juice is somehow "not gross" or much healthier for you as a result.
I was trying to make the point, (perhaps in the wrong way), that this is not true. i.e. - there are as many bugs and feces in vegetables and fruits as there is feces and pus in milk and meat. There is "junk" in everything and animal products in almost everything.
I just think the rational approach is to see ourselves as the omnivorous animals we are and not give people too much hassle over eating meats and dairy when the obvious facts are that this is part of the "natural" human diet and very good for you.
You don't go into this point, but part of my zeal with this issue comes from the fact that I *do* know quite a few people who have tried veganism and if you truly eschew all meat, dairy, fish, etc. you have to eat carefully to maintain health. Many people seem to like the ideal but lack the discipline to carry it off. Thus, a lot of really skinny, pale unhealthy people.
It's probably true that the root cause however is not just veganism itself, but really the faulty implementation of veganism by people who's desire to be healthy is not matched by their knowledge or skill at maintaining a diet.
