Anybody still against hate-crime lawsafter this?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by leekohler, Aug 28, 2005.

  1. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #1
  2. leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #3
    oh but remember- according to the religious right everyone gets treated equally under the law, so there's no need for hate-crimes legislation. BS.
     
  3. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #4
    Yes...yet another reason why we want our country to be run by people who don't understand what it's like to suffer. :(
     
  4. vniow macrumors G4

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    #5
    Mother****ing transpohibic piece of **** *******s! :mad: :mad: :mad:

    It amazes me that any progress is made on GLBT rights when ******** defenses are used like this. :mad:
     
  5. leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #6
    Like I said- this is exactly why we need hate-crime laws. All the guy had to do was kick Gwen out of his house.
     
  6. zimv20 macrumors 601

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  7. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #8
    Yeah...I don't understand this thinking-with-your-dick logic of theirs. Even my penis is smart enough to know that there are easier ways to deal with this than stabbing someone to death. :( It's scary to think that there are people in the world who are dumber than my penis. And scarier to think that they have knives.
     
  8. leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #9
    This guy should rot in prison for the rest of his life. I would glady give my taxpayer money to that cause.
     
  9. katie ta achoo macrumors G3

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    #10
    I hear that!
    I don't even think an education/rehabilitation program would be good for him. You can't un-teach hate.

    This makes me sick.

    I'd like to see a GLBT person murder a straight person because of "straight panic." (well.. NOT LIKE TO, but you know what I'm sayin') See if the defense goes the other way.

    If it does, I'll take a huge bite of veal. (I'm a vegetarian.)

    Seriously.
     
  10. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #11
    That just sickens me. He should have gotten a tougher jail sentence for killing anyone like that. Let alone for a hate crime. I was somewhat against hate crime laws before, but if the criminals are going to do stuff like this, I may re-think my position. You do need to look at the reasons behind the crime sometimes. And in a case like this, they need harsher sentences, not lesser. :mad:

    At least I know he'll probably be spending the next 4 years knowing what it's like to be a homosexual. The hard way.
     
  11. leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #12
    That GLBT person would be strung up from a tree.
     
  12. Xtremehkr macrumors 68000

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    #13
    At least a part of the problem is the rhetoric espoused by religious institutions who continue to blame homosexuality for everything from moral decline to our troops being killed overseas to acts of terrorism being committed nationally. This crime is nothing less than despicable, but the elements of society that actively promote anti-homosexual behavior and legislation are in the minds of some, justifying behavior like this.

    I will add that, I don't think that it was wise for the victim to have been engaging in that sort of deception with the persons that committed the crime. But that my opinion concerning that is in no way a defense of what those people did. I do wonder about why the victim chose to do what he did with who he did it with, even so, the resulting actions were no less wrong. Maybe at least a part of the reason was that the victim felt he could not be openly gay without suffering any repercussions from that. Either way, crimes like this are not helped by religious and political elements that vilify homosexuality.
     
  13. kalisphoenix macrumors 65816

    kalisphoenix

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    #14
    This has happened so many times in the past couple years that my staggering level of misanthropy has scaled fantastic new heights. Gwen Araujo? Fred Martinez? How many others?
     
  14. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #15
    Man, that is so F-ed up. 4 years for killing someone who was not a threat to you in any physical way? That's ridiculous. And the sickest part is that you can claim your revulsion of homosexuals is an excuse for letting your revulsion drive you to kill.

    I mean, I still don't think it should be a crime to feel revulsion for homosexuals and homosexuality, that's your right just as it's my right to believe you're completely wrong when you think that. But without a threat to your physical safety (ie. battered spouse, self-defense) taking another human's life should be taken much more seriously.

    The only way this makes even a tiny bit of sense is if the guys were viewed as having committed voluntary manslaughter (which is possible in a case of spouse coming home to find their partner having sex with another person, and in a fit of rage kills one or both of them). In that case it's viewed as unplanned and a spontaneous act that the person would not necessarily have committed if the information had been gained in a less shocking manner. It's still not a legal reason to kill, but sentences for this kind of crime tend to be shorter than ones where the killing is clearly premeditated and there were plenty of opportunities to stop along the way. But even voluntary manslaughter charges usually bring much longer sentences than 4 years. This sentence is more along the lines of involuntary manslaughter, but it can't be involuntary if you manually strangle someone...

    Something went horribly wrong here legally. Just the fact that the victim posed no threat to the lives or safety of the perps should mean 25 to life.
     
  15. mpw Guest

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    #16
    Easier ways to deal with what?

    I'm sure you know more about this case than I do but from the linked article I get the feeling there's a lot of detail missing.
    The article claimed the defendant stabbed the victim after finding out they were biologically a man.
    From the fact that the defendant is not being accused of any previous stabbing of anyone who has had sex change treatment I'm guessing it's not just the knowledge of this that made him react this way.
    Again I'm guessing but I imagine that it was the way he found out and perhaps the point at which he found out that caused such a wild, violent and panicked reaction. This would be in keeping with his defense and could explain his seemingly lenient sentence.

    You may have a penis of above average intellect but I hope it would listen to the full facts if it were ever to serve as a juror.
     
  16. iGary Guest

    iGary

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  17. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #18
    Separating "hate crime" from this particular killing"

    All violent crime includes some degree of hatred. "Hate Crime" as an add-on to crimes of violence is BS.

    As far as this particular event, consider: You have a straight guy who goes out drinking and hunting for a partner for horizontal recreation. He picks up a "gal" and heads for bed.

    Surprise!

    He snaps. Result? A killing.

    It's not "Murder 1" because it was not premeditated. In Texas, the deal is specifically covered as "Voluntary Manslaughter" because there was the intent to kill, but the circumstances were of high, uncontrollable passion. The sentence can be from a minimum of ten to a maximum of twenty years.

    "He/she" prostitutes are always at risk.

    'Rat
     
  18. iGary Guest

    iGary

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    #19
    Murder is murder.
     
  19. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #20
    Not necessarily on either count. If a bank robber shoots a bank guard during the commission of a robbery, it wouldn't be anything personal. No hatred would necessarily be inolved, but it would still be murder, in at least the second degree (and probably with added special circumstances).

    I'm not a big fan of hate crimes laws, because determining when acts are motivated by hate can be hard to discern, but I understand the reasoning behind them. If a crime is motivated by an expression of hatred not against an individual but against an individual strictly because of their association with a group, then the crime may be intended to do more than hurt one person, but to intimidate that entire group (in the way lynching was more than just an act of violence against the lynched person, it was meant to send a message to all black people to not get uppity). Consequently, hate crimes can be a special circumstance considered by a judge or jury during sentencing -- in exactly the same way they might give extra time to the bank robber who kills the guard.

    So no, not BS.
     
  20. ~loserman~ macrumors 6502a

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    #21
    I agree that in each of these cases the perps should get harsher sentences.
    They did take another life.
    I also think the first part that went wrong in some of these cases was the victim portrayed themselves as something they were not and in 1 case went to great lengths to hide the fact.
    That is still no justification for murder.

    Personal life experience here; while not directly related to Trans-gender still somewhat applicable.
    On several occasions in my life I have been overtly bothered by homosexuals.
    The first time I was 17 and staying at a friends house. I was asleep on the couch I woke up and a guy was playing with my privates.
    I was stunned. I pushed him away and asked him what the hell did he think he was doing. He had the gall to ask me what was wrong and tell me that I liked it because I was aroused in my sleep. I left.
    The second time I was also 17 and was changing clothes in my bedroom when a guy who I thought was a friend came up behind me and put his hands on me from behind. I promptly moved out.
    The third time I was 18 and was hired to do a "Modeling Job" It turned out to be just me being paraded in front of a group of homosexuals. I got very angry and left immediately. Later I found out that this was a common practice with this group of guys.(Hiring some straight guy to model in front of them)
    When I was in the Navy we had a guy that was gay that constantly would stare at us in the showers. He ended up being kicked out because he got caught sucking my friend who was passed out in his bed.

    In each of these cases directly involving me, I was too embarrassed to tell anyone about them.
    While none of the ones directly involving me led to violence I can understand why some other people may react that way.
     
  21. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #22
    To reiterate what I said above (which is nearly identical), something went horribly wrong because this sentence does not even come close to the length served by a typical voluntary manslaughter perp. This sentence is closer to what one would expect for involuntary manslaughter, which is described as violence without intent to kill where the killing is accidental. But there is no way this could be described as an accidental result of the attack. The only answer is that the sentencing body viewed homophobia as something that can mitigate voluntary manslaughter into something else. That is unacceptable, I think you would agree.

    You and I are on the same page regarding hate crimes, but something has to be done to prevent the use of this fear as a justification. It should be futile to claim gay-panic as a mitigating factor in court. It sends a bad message to other people. 4 years is almost worth it to knock off someone you really can't stand...

    I didn't gather from the article that the victim was a prostitute. Where did you find that?

    Casual sex is risky all around. Everything from disease to getting raped or robbed is possible if you aren't careful. Everyone is at risk when they do it.

    But the TG folks face a particularly delicate situation. When do you come clean? Every time someone buys you a drink? First date? It's gotta be one of the many difficulties they face.
     
  22. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #23
    Your experience is sadly not terribly different from that of the average woman.
     
  23. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #24
    Haha...touché. Well, it's not so much criminal punishment that I and my penis are interested in. :p Actually, I dunno. I meant to say that I think this is the wrong way to respond, wholly divorced from the issue of what society should do with the "perpetrator." What you say, about this person not having the appearance of a lot of prior violent acts, *is* important. It means he is probably capable of rehabilitation of some sort. I'd want that opportunity for anyone who has potential left in them.

    But I think I am collected enough to tell the person to leave my home without using physical force. I don't know? Maybe I'm not? I think I am, though. I'm not going to back down in saying that there were better ways in which he could have handled this situation than by handling a knife.
     
  24. leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #25
    And in each of those cases, you did the right thing- you didn't kill anyone. But this person did. He deserves to fry. Period.

    BTW- Get some better friends and try hanging out in better circles of people. Trust me- most gay men are not like the ones you describe.
     

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