Apple Discontinuing Java Installation Packages for Mac OS X?

Discussion in 'MacRumors.com News Discussion' started by MacRumors, Oct 21, 2010.

  1. macrumors bot

    MacRumors

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    A number of readers have pointed out that Apple's developer documentation for its Java updates for Mac OS X released yesterday reveals that the company appears to be ceasing future distribution of its custom-ported Java packages.
    It is not entirely clear what the move means for the future of Java on Mac OS X, as Apple has long been criticized for moving slowly on releasing updates to Java and it is possible that Oracle could roll out its own Java packages (as it does for Windows and Linux) on a more timely basis.

    On a possibly-related note, Apple has noted in the guidelines for its forthcoming Mac App Store that applications using Java and other deprecated or optionally-installed technologies will not be accepted. Developers are of course free to distribute such applications through other means, but the move appears to be another sign of Apple opting to de-emphasize certain third-party technologies in its products.

    Apple's long-standing issues with Adobe Flash are of course well-documented, with the company opting not to support Flash on its iOS devices and now even shipping its new MacBook Air without Flash pre-installed.

    Article Link: Apple Discontinuing Java Installation Packages for Mac OS X?
     
  2. macrumors 65816

    macsmurf

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2007
    #2
    Well, that sucks for Java software developers that like macs (like me) but it wasn't entirely unexpected. Hopefully someone will fill the void. Otherwise, I'll be forced to go back to Linux.
     
  3. JAT
    macrumors 603

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    Mpls, MN
    #3
    Ok. Don't care. They can push their own updates.
     
  4. macrumors 6502a

    Pentad

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    Location:
    Indiana
    #4
    Yep, this is not a great idea on Apple's part...

    Since they licensed Java from SUN and then did the Mac port on their own, it would be a disaster if they abandoned future development or just ceased keeping up with current revisions.

    Bad, bad, bad...
     
  5. macrumors 6502

    Yebot

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    #5
    Every time I have to run a Java app on Mac or Windows, the experience usually feels slow and clunky.

    Write once, run everywhere is a just a dream.
     
  6. macrumors 604

    bushido

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2008
    Location:
    Germany
    #6
    i cant figure out how i can get java programming working using my "windows instructed papers" from uni, therefore i already have no other choice but to use a windows virtual machine *bleh*
     
  7. macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2006
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    #7
    No Java applications in the App Store? :eek:

    Two thumbs way down.
     
  8. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    #8
    I'm not so sure what to think of Apple at the moment. The more I think about it, the more I see that they are heading in the direction of restricting users so they fit into their tight ecosystem.

    I am a developer, and an engineer. When I hear news like this that the company will cease to support technologies thus forcing me to stick to their own API's, I get disgusted. I too, may have to go back to Linux. The mac is becoming way too mainstream, which again is not a bad thing for mainstream users (99% of the population), but for those of us enrolled in academia and science and development... this is very very bad.
     
  9. macrumors 601

    Phil A.

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    Apr 2, 2006
    Location:
    Telford, UK
    #9
    Not good news - I find OS X to be a superb Java development platform with Eclipse and hopefully Oracle will take up the reins for future Java releases
    Java may never have really made it on the desktop but it's heavily used in Enterprise systems and still has a long future ahead of it
     
  10. macrumors 603

    Stella

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2003
    Location:
    Canada
    #10
    A sad day.

    Quite a portion of Java developers use OSX. OSX makes a very nice Development environment, far better than windows.

    Here's hoping that Oracle pick up Java for OSX, otherwise say good bye to apps like OpenOffice and a whole section of users ( i.e., Java developers - Java is ranked 1 or 2 most used language.

    The notion that Java is slow is a myth, by the way.

    Its quite irontic that Apple are deprecating Java on OSX since Apple use Java quite a lot - for example, Apple discussion board is JSP.
     
  11. macrumors 68040

    Lesser Evets

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    Jan 7, 2006
    #11
    Well, someone else step in and do it if they want it.
     
  12. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2008
    #12
    That's just you not knowing what you're doing... It's fully compatible. I'm guessing you're dealing with classpath issues?

    As for the larger issue... I'm torn. Apple has been an awful steward of Java for OS X. How long did it take us to get Java 6? Years. That's ridiculous. Java for Mac is really slow. I'm looking forward to the prospect of getting security updates in a more timely manner.

    But, there's always the option that we'll get stuck using the awful Open Java that isn't 100% compatible and is nowhere near as optimized as even normal Java (just from my experience using both on Linux).

    We'll see. This is actually a big deal. I work at a huge company and all development that isn't mainframe or absurdly high frequency is done in Java. We have over 4k webapps on WebSphere and Java. We're looking into allowing developers to use Macs instead of their current thinkpads. This might destroy that initiative.
     
  13. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    #13
    I agree... but it depends on how you look at it. For compile time, it is often compared to its big brothers C and C++ where their compile times are far superior, but for actual runtime, the performance is about the same (which is what we really care about).
     
  14. macrumors 601

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2007
    #14
    Everybody should calm down a bit and wait until we know for sure that this isn’t a move to push off the Java responsibility to Oracle instead of Apple. This would be good news since Oracle/Sun is much faster at fixing java issues than Apple.

    The less third-party frameworks (Flash/Java) that Apple has to maintain is a good thing, not a bad thing. Apple can shift the Apple engineers onto something else and the companies that made those frameworks need to maintain it for OS X. Apple is starting to get a lot of influence on the market that those companies can not ignore Apple anymore like they did in the past.
     
  15. macrumors 6502a

    macridah

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Location:
    Nor-Cal
    #15
    What! No way. I hope Oracle will provide a JDK/JRE for mac os x. I am a server side Java EE programmer and open source java application servers rock on the mac.

    I know client side java apps are a little slower, but on the EE side it can be just as fast.

    What could be the reason? It can't be a resource issue, they have 50 billion in the bank. If it is a strategic, then i'll be waving my fist.

    Well, it will just affect my professional life. My normal life will be downloading apps from the app store that other people write.

    I will see how this plays out. I was the one that convinced my boss to buy a mac mini server and then eventually a xServe for our enterprise java app.
     
  16. macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    #16
    Has that to do with Oracle getting all serious about patents???

    Just wondering.
     
  17. macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2008
    Location:
    Holocene Epoch
    #17
    It's very clear.

    Applications that leverage Java (and that CRAP Java UI!) are going to have to be responsible for checking dependencies and providing a mechanism to Oracle for Java updates. Shared libraries have always been a beyatch. Time for Oracle to step up and support OSX the same way they do for Windows and Linux. Then *they* get to be responsible when the Java update for one application breaks another application.

    Frankly, I'd be just as happy to not even have Java on my system. YMMV.

    Anyone have a list handy of what popular OSX-based applications still require Java? I know one of the "Quicken replacements" applications I tried recently was Java based (just from the fugly UI).
     
  18. macrumors 68030

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Location:
    Aussie living in Canada
    #18
    Is anyone else slightly unnerved by the potential monster that the Mac App store could present? Man, I hope this doesn't get so big that they lock everyone out that doesn't use the app store.

    Could you imagine having to jailbreak your own Mac to use it the way you want?
     
  19. macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2007
    #19
    Well that kinda sucks if your a Java developer. But isn't the use of Java kinda fading out?
     
  20. macrumors 6502

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    Jun 24, 2003
    Location:
    Chesapeake, VA USA
    #20
    I used to be a big Java hater but I will say that Poker Copilot is one Java app that runs really well; in fact, I wouldn't even know it was a Java app if the developer had never said so.

    This decision concerns me because Apple used to make a big deal about how OS X was built on open technologies, and it's starting to feel like Apple is trying to close things up.
     
  21. macrumors 604

    GFLPraxis

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2004
    #21
    As long as someone takes over keeping this updated, s'all good, but hopefully this doesn't mean the end of Java on a Mac. It still has its uses- many of them. PS3 Media Server, OpenOffice...lots of little servers and utilities get ported multiplatform via Java.

    I'd hate to use big apps that require good UIs built in Java, and I fully understand the rational for not allowing Java apps in the app store because they usually have wonky non-Mac-like interfaces, but the utilities and servers? Stuff like proxy servers, streaming servers, VNC, etc servers are often Java.
     
  22. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    #22
    NOT cool - Java is critical for education, corporate, and server domains!

    I hope enough "concern" on this end prompts a "clarification" on Apple's part....
     
  23. macrumors 68000

    pgwalsh

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Location:
    Colorado Springs, Colorado
    #23
    Makes sense to me

    I think it makes sense. Let Oracle do it since they're already doing it for Windows and Linux.
     
  24. macrumors member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    #24
    Developers might like Java but the experience for users sucks. Esp in Windows when I have to use Java apps my machine gets slow & clunky. Sucks for ya'll but this is good news for users. If you just insist on developing for Java just accept you'lll have fewer customers.
     
  25. macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    #25
    bye bye apple, been nice knowing you.

    Ho hum.

    I've enjoyed switching to Mac for the past 3 years, but this is a dealbreaker for me.

    I'm a software developer, and I need Java (Eclipse, IntelliJ) - thus I need a well supported JVM with good hooks into the native UI. Whilst this has never been perfect on OS X (screen repaints have been pretty poor on resize), it was acceptable.

    I suspect Apple won't upstream their changes, and I doubt the platform is big enough for Oracle to care much about doing a native port - after all, what's in it for them?

    So, yes, I'm sure Soylatte etc., will technically work, I bet the UX will be pretty bad.

    As an organisation too we were about to buy a bunch of Pro-level machines (were waiting for the 2.8 speedbump on the Macbook), but we'll have to reconsider this now. OS X has turned from a great UNIX development environment into a graveyard over the last few years (no ZFS, kernel still has terrible memory management, no 10.7 features that are interesting at all).

    :-(
     

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