Apple - Prosumer versus Consumer Market Focus

Discussion in 'Mac OS X Lion (10.7)' started by bedifferent, Mar 12, 2011.

  1. bedifferent, Mar 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2011

    macrumors 603


    Jan 8, 2009
    Using/developing for the next big kitty, at first I was impressed, but as I worked further it's just becoming iOS X. Launchpad is exactly like iOS folders, and a pain to drag 10+ pages of app's one at a time. I'm just tired of iDevices. Sure, Thunderbolt came out, a watered down copper version of "Light Peak" that may or may not take off and needs full integration for systems to be vital.

    Spoke with a friend working as a designer w/ engineers on the next FCP, said so far it's not great, the engineers/team heads have been there for years and dragging their weight. She was always the first to defend Apple's prosumer market, having worked as a filmmaker w/FCP and Macs, but now she definitely knows Apple is done with that market. In fact, most FCP users in the industry have either moved to Avid or Premiere Pro.

    So I guess I should succumb to the reality that displays, Pro-Apps and a reasonable mid-tower/tower are a thing of the past and that Apple will be the king of mobile iDevices. :(
  2. Moderator emeritus


    Dec 10, 2008
    I wouldn't say anything until we are sure where the Apple train is heading. Since Apple is working on next FCS, it shows that they have at least some interest towards the pro market, otherwise they would just discontinue the whole thing.
  3. thread starter macrumors 603


    Jan 8, 2009
    True but from what I've been told they might as well :(

    Not trying to be a whiner, just disappointed. I guess I want someone to say "No!" and this is why lol. *le sigh*
  4. macrumors 6502

    Oct 30, 2010
    Unfortunately, the biggest and the most profitable market is not professionals, but other users that want just fun and do simple work with their computers. So, as a profit maximizing firm, Apple's putting this kind of costumers to the first place.

    But, I don't think Apple will "forget" professional users since they are the most faithful users :)
  5. macrumors 6502

    Aug 30, 2009
    Well, last I heard Final Cut had 49% market share.

    I'm not saying you're wrong but I'm getting very tired of hearing Mac OS X is turning into iOS! The Professionals are doomed!

    Or, Apple doesn't care about computers anymore!

    I mean, those new MacBook Pros? They are the most up to date computers Apple has released in a long time, minus blu-ray and USB 3.0. The graphics processors are brand new, the processors are brand new. Thunderbolt, just like how Apple Spearheaded FireWire and USB.

    Everyone I talk to in my video editing class always mention Final Cut. Nobody I know talks about premiere. Some "Some" people talk about Avid but mostly its still all about Final Cut.
  6. macrumors 68040


    Jun 29, 2006
    Having used Lion on a daily basis for some time now, I disagree with your assertion that it's becoming iOS X. There are a few additions that were clearly inspired by iOS, of course – but it's not as if older features were removed en masse to make way what's been added. I'm just as productive under Lion as I am under Snow Leopard, and I quite appreciate the improvements that Apple has implemented.
  7. thread starter macrumors 603


    Jan 8, 2009
    I'll put you in touch with my friend, she'll fill ya in. She's been a film maker for years, and she's working on the next version. Hate to break it to you, MacBook Pro's aren't "Desktop" systems, try rendering high-def videos on an underpowered MacBook. Good luck. As for your stats, way off. Maybe a few years back but AVID has surpassed FCP in usage, especially as the industry is looking at long term roadmaps, and doesn't see investing in Apple hardware/Proapps as "smart business" given Apple's recent stance on dropping products and Pro-apps with no indication (I feel for the businesses that invested in XServes just before Apple dropped them, and using Mac Mini's or Mac Pro's as "Servers"???)

    As for other other examples:

    - No Resolution Independence
    - No Finder revamp (c'mon Apple, you had a chance with Sun Systems ZFS, and blew it, HFS+ is outdates_
    - XServe dumped
    - ProApps like Aperture are getting "Share on Facebook" options, for a PROAPP, wtf is that?
    - Shake replaced with Motion - doesn't even compare
    - Launchpad - PITA - Click and dragging each icon into an iOS "Folder" is BS. It's cutesy but makes no practical sense, only implemented to keep the iOS masses on board
    - OpenGL Support is a joke
    - No midtower - PowerMac G4/5's were once AFFORDABLE, ~$1500, then Apple jumped into the Intel market and threw in overpowered and overpriced SERVER grade chips into a desktop workstation. Why not a mid level AFFORDABLE and UPGRADABLE system, in between the top iMac and entry Mac Pro?
    - Full lineup of CCFL LCD's (20, 23, 30) gone and replaced with a stripped down 27" iMac LED LCD panel with chords too short to attach to a Mac Pro
    - More portable updates - "Light Peak" was debuted on a Mac Pro in 2008, with fiber optics, NOT copper, and is meant to be utilized as an interior system structure, not an add-on which defeats the purpose. Sure, it's new, but debuting it in a portable (again, not a desktop) solidifies Apple's lack of Prolevel focus
    - MacRumors - Before the iPhone, it was MACrumors, with daily updates on OS X beta releases. Now it's iMacRumors, heck, there's even an "iPhone" section.

    Great, I'm psyched Apple has made billions on the consumer masses with iDevices, but as someone who has used Apple for well over a decade for PRODUCING not CONSUMING, as in for work, those of us in the know realize Apple is not concerned with us, they're concerned with

    Tell me otherwise man, I would love to believe it, but actions speak louder than words and if Apple is headed in the direction it has for the past four years, a lot of Pro's will be moving to other platforms. Apple won't suffer, they have the soccer Mom's and fashionista's to shill out the iDevice bucks, but c'mon, you cannot state that Apple has been steadily dropping us.
  8. macrumors 6502

    Aug 30, 2009
    Where did I say MacBook Pros are "Desktop" computers? Where did I say you only need QuadCore Processors, 8GB of Ram and 1GB graphics cards and not RAID to edit movies?

    I'm not the only person who will disagree with you. Two people can play the "I know people in whatever industry and just because they say it makes it so" game.

    As for my statistics being "way" off. FCP might have lower market share now but that still doesn't put aside that people prefer it over Premiere. FCP isn't the Mac OS X of the OS market it has a fair share of it, actually. Thats either way you slice it.
  9. macrumors regular

    Sep 10, 2009
    I would have thought a 'professional' would already use Pathfinder (or others, and implement cut & paste of folders/files into the GUI), and wouldn't use the dock either.... Quicksilver or Dragthing?

    The resolution independence issue was a surprise when I switched.

  10. Administrator emeritus


    Jan 15, 2006
    The Kop
    Finder is not the underlying format of the drive. And it is getting updates.

    A couple of things here, firstly are Pro's not allowed to have normal lives too? Perhaps they store their personal photos in the environment they are used to and have setup. Allowing them to use their work environment for home use is sensible.

    Also perhaps apple is looking at the increasing way that business is done these days via social media and helping those who may want to use that as a benefit to their business.

    I don't get why Pro apps cant have some consumer level parts to them. Who decides what a pro feature is?

    You don't have to use it.

    Apple obviously likes the implementation that they created on iOS and have added it to the desktop OS. This enables that comfortable feel for those migrating from iOS but also paves the way for a greater touch based (and potentially hardware integration) future.

    You mean this 2009 demo

    Interior system structure?

    Optical right now is expensive so the decision was made to go copper. Yeah a bit annoying for those buying now, however they will still be able to use optical in the future through the existing port and it still gets the 10GBps.

    Debuting on a portable (Macbook Pro so obviously some prolevel focus, or aren't pros allowed to use laptops?) because it fits with the update schedule, the next Mac Pros will come with Thunderbolt.

    This claim again. The rumours are published when there are rumours. If you look back before the MacBook Pro was released there was lots of rumours about that. After Lion Developer preview was released there was stories about that. The iPad has just been released there were rumors and stories about that. That is the way it goes, unless of course you want the editors to simply make stuff up.

    You do have some valid claims however some are off base.
  11. bedifferent, Mar 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2011

    thread starter macrumors 603


    Jan 8, 2009
    You all have great points, I'm just frustrated with the direction it's taken.

    Now these are just rants/points, not defensive arguments so I hope my tone isn't interpreted as "hostile" or "obnoxious", far from it. I actually like to read others' points as they are very true and get me thinking. So take it all with a grain of salt (and sorry for the long rant, going to bed and wanted to "get it all out there") and thanks for the comments! :)

    As for Pathfinder, never liked it. I have three displays and scripts, spaces/desktops for necessary workflows - Aperture and FCP set to dedicated spaces and screens. Having used/tested some interesting features in previous Leopard/Snow Leopard builds that were dropped for whatever reason, and Apple shifting many of their engineers into iOS development, it's disappointing. I truly wish you could speak with my friend, NDA's suck. I was disappointed from what I learned. From her work designing with the engineers, she's not too happy with the direction it's taking.

    As for Proapps having commercial aspects, I'll leave that to iPhoto. Truthfully, not many businesses do benefit from Facebook connections, it's a social network for killing time for most people (not all), and from the businesses I've seen attempt to utilize it for marketing, not so much. My point wasn't that it's deemed "unacceptable" but that Apple is could spend better time/resources on improving the app's use of the available hardware, such as multi-core support and full 64-bit implementation. I was surprised iLife '11 came out in 32-bit. Not a big deal but certainly off-base from stated goals.

    I understand the reasoning for copper in "Light Peak", fiber optics are too expensive. Yet "Light Peak" is meant to replace USB/FW/Display ports and all the required controllers with one universal system. Slimming down systems and speeding connections with no need for extra hardware. Not a PCIe slot that Intel announced will not be available for Mac Pro systems, leaving many to suspect a delay until fiber optics are reasonably priced for full system integration as well as universal port adaption for external devices.

    Again, my point was in desktop systems as those are crucial to intense applications. The example of the MacBook Pro being updated doesn't help Prosumers as it is not a powerful enough platform. Apple updating them doesn't satisfy those professionals who need better updates/hardware/app's for their work.

    A lot of industry editors have moved to Premiere Pro with CS5. It's taken quite a bit to adjust, but given Adobe's continuing commitment to their products versus Apple's, it's a smarter long term investment.

    With Apple's multi-billion dollar cash reserve, it wouldn't kill them to focus even a little more resources in this market. If Apple is not feeding this niche and it's slowly dying for them and for the many who supported Apple when they were nearly bankrupt. So now it seems many are purchasing new hardware and app's away from Apple, which means all the money and time in learning systems may be lost.

    UPDATE: Course I can't find the 2008 demonstration as googling anything with "Light Peak" brings up pages of MacBook Pro's and Thunderbolt. Intel officially debuted it in the summer of 2009 but did demonstrate it in 2008 on an 8-Core Harpertown Mac Pro.
  12. macrumors 68030


    Jan 19, 2006
    Ummm.... Do you know many people who make a lively hood as pro photographers. Look I'm not not going to claim I know a heap or even a significant precentage here in Sydney but all the one I know have Facebook pages not just for personnel but for the business as well. Getting your customers to follow you is great for repeat business. Lots of them will have another page for artistic work. Being able to pop an update of new work into the news feed of clients is invaluable for triggering phone calls. A close friend even times all his updates to have the phone call happen on office days.

    Yes apple needs to keeping ups it's side of the bargain and improving the technology and getting to do it's best for us but part of that is also about streamlining what may seem like trivial stuff to many. And other part is getting out our way when we don't need it.
  13. bedifferent, Mar 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2011

    thread starter macrumors 603


    Jan 8, 2009
    I used to work as a digital tech assistant with photographers in NYC. Yes at one point professional photographers were loyal to Apple, their previous dedicated line-up of CCFL LCD's were top notch and required little to no screen calibration with OS X systems making. Their PowerMac PowerPC systems were affordable and powerful enough for Photoshop and eventually Lightroom and Aperture. However, Apple stopped updating their display line, I believe between 2004-2008 their weren't any updates and before the iPhone craze many front-page threads on MacRumors were a buzz with possible display changes and OS X updates and Mac Pro updates. In 2008 Apple released ONE 24" LED LCD which was simply the then 24" iMac display in an iMac form factor with chords mainly used for their notebook line (they are too short to reach desktop/Mac Pro systems, requiring this: Gefen 10 ft USB / DisplayPort extension cable). Once the 24" iMac was retired Apple retired the 24" display for the 27" iMac display, leaving, again, only ONE display for desktop Apple users (and we have to buy a USB/Mini DisplayPort cable to extend the display connection to reach our Mac Pro's). So what are Mac Pro owners who use their systems for work do for displays? Not Apple. No anti-glare option, so other sizes, cables too short to reach and no other size to chose from.

    What has now happened, photographers such as Annie Leibovitz have left Apple systems, and have gone as far as to sign contract for HP endorsements and commercials (which may be a factor in her losing her estate as her partner Susan died from cancer, much of her money went to her partners insurance/treatment and as NY State doesn't recognize gay marriage Leibovitz had to pay taxes and buy out much of their real estate).

    My point, a lot of professionals have been leaving Apple and as one I'm at a crossroads. Lion seems to be an OS more tailored for iDevice adopters who are new to Mac with very little improvements for professionals. Launchpad, multitouch, OpenGL support seriously lagging, Pro-App development teams shifting to iOS engineering. Having just bought a new 6-Core system and two 24" displays, if Apple keeps this up I may be running Windows 7 on my system and investing in Windows based Pro-Applications, after over 10 years with Apple.
  14. macrumors 6502a

    Mar 14, 2009
    That's a somewhat vague statement which contradicts more concrete reports.
    Of course that's a rumors. But the invitation has been confirmed by others (the invitation itself wasn't under NDA), so there's at least some truth in this.
    From someone who was there:
    Jordan is not a kind of person to make things up.
    Technically, a complete redesign of FCS fits very well with the shift to a new media architecture in Lion, based on 64-bit Quicktime X and AVFoundation.
    See discussion here:

    So many pieces of evidence point to a significant update of Final Cut. Maybe your friend isn't happy with some interface changes, but that engineers have spent years "dragging their weight" seems quite unlikely.
  15. jeanlain, Mar 13, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2011

    macrumors 6502a

    Mar 14, 2009
    While I don't deny that Apple now focuses more on the consumer market, some of the following arguments here don't make much sense to me.
    No one else is doing this yet, and actually Lion has improved support for 2X scale factor. Large retina displays are not there yet.
    What's wrong with the current finder and HFS in the pro space? The finder will be significantly updated in Lion, with better spotlight integration amongst other improvements. Something Pros should appreciate.
    This is more disturbing, but OTOH, the server tools will be included in Lion.
    You're ignoring all other new features. And as others have pointed out, this one too is useful for Pros.
    Shake being abandoned would be a more accurate statement. Let's see the next FCS before drawing conclusions.
    I don't see how this relates to anything.
    Apple's OpenGL has always lagged behind AMD's and Nvidia's. Nothing new here. FYI, Lion will have significantly improved openGL support.
    They were more affordable and at the same time much slower and less "pro" than the concurrence. Those server grade ships you mention are actually used in workstations (not gaming rigs) by other vendors like DELL and hp. The Mac Pro I purchased was 1000$ cheaper than the equivalent DELL and the G5 it replaced.
    It looks like you're accusing Apple of being too much "Pro" on that one.
    Agreed. But it's not as if you couldn't use other monitors.
    You're being quite unfair here. Apple is ahead on that front. Light Peak wasn't "debuted" on a Mac Pro, it was a prototype. No one is using fiber Light peak yet.
    This doesn't necessarily reflect Apple's policy regarding professionals, but rather the development of iDevices.
  16. thread starter macrumors 603


    Jan 8, 2009
    Ok Ok I acquiesce lol. Good points all, but I still fear that Apple is dropping the ball on us.

    As for FCP, my friend is pretty reliable, and she's been using FCP for a long time. 64-bit is a given, but she's talking about the interface (she's not an engineer but a designer working with engineers). From her perspective and the other few designers working with them, they're frustrated with the lack of follow through on the engineers part. She also mentioned a lot of the team management has been there far too long and needs to go.

    Many Pro's who can't afford/don't need Xeon Mac Pro's would like a form factor that would allow for upgrading graphics/HDDs/SSDs/Opticals, adding their own or more displays, etc with a Quad Core or such processor. For example, a photographer who doesn't need a Xeon Pro for high def rendering would be fine with a Mac Pro running a Quad Core i7, allowing him to use a better graphics card and his own and/or as many displays as needed. The top line iMac isn't flexible for upgrades as an all-in-one system. Many "Pro's" have resorted to hackint0shes to fill that market niche.

    I loved my two 23" CCFL LCD's but after 7 years burn in was becoming an issue. I researched many threads and reviews and settled on two Dell 24" CCFL LCD's. After three exchanges due to bad pixels, uneven panels and/or bleeding, I gave up (Dell has a FANTASTIC return policy, no complaints and a full refund). EIZO's were out as I needed two and I wasn't a fan of NEC, so I bought two 24" LED LCD's from Apple. Great displays, don't get me wrong, yet they only have one size (27" now), no anti-glare option (I use a shield so not an issue and the screen is better for color accuracy than diffused anti-glare panels), and cables that are about 2 feet long. Selling them with Mac Pro's is a bit misleading, they should at least include extension cables.

    ZFS would have been a better system for large storage arrays. HFS+ is ok, but when handling large amounts of data ZFS at the time proved better. Now that Apple has dropped XServe, it's probably not on their list any more. Resolution Independence was touched on in Leopard beta's, and then dropped. Retina displays aren't a necessity for RI. As another MacRumors commentator pointed out, Apple has had more than four years to flesh it out.

    Any ways, I hope I'm wrong. I don't need a "Waaaambulance" lol, I guess I am disappointed is all, and venting a little.

    Thanks for the input guys!

    On another note, what do you think of Lion so far? While it isn't an issue, I'm perplexed as to why some systems have AirDrop working and others don't. My 2009 27" iMac has it, yet my 2010 6-Core Pro doesn't. Seems to be an issue. Otherwise, it's not bad. I don't mind the multi-touch implementation. I dusted off my Magic TrackPad which makes more sense with the multi touch implementations. Otherwise, for a first Developer Preview, it's a pretty stable system.
  17. Moderator emeritus


    Dec 10, 2008
    Xeon 3500-series CPUs cost as much as their i7 counterparts. Putting an i7 in Mac Pro wouldn't make it any cheaper. Apple just likes their +1000$ profit.
  18. thread starter macrumors 603


    Jan 8, 2009
    Hmmm, got me there. Just checked on it. Too bad, AMD makes good chips at much lower prices. What would be a good processor between the top iMac and entry Pro?
  19. macrumors 6502a

    Mar 14, 2009
    Some internal dispute between final cut developers would be consistent with reports posted on Macbidouille:
    I hope this won't have too much impact on the product. I'm still optimistic, given recent reports from people who know nothing about possible conflicts.
  20. macrumors 65816


    Aug 16, 2006
    Scotland, UK
    I am firmly with you OP....

    But i still trying to (despite the odd post or two) reserve my judgement on the whole subject.

    As a media professional, working for one of the biggest broadcasting companies in the world, i hear about this ALL THE TIME.

    AVID is the choice of the industry right now, and has been for a long time, but favours are swaying towards FCP... but if Apple's next big release doesn't cut the mustard, then Avid will remain on top.

    Many smaller companies and freelancers have jumped ship to Adobe, I personally haven't used it so can't pass comment but ido know that where i work, its either Avid or FCP... and FCP is still kept on macs that are hidden in back rooms and taken on OBs and not sitting in the 20-odd edit suites we currently run in the building.

    As for hardware... the fact that there are just not the options in terms of GPU for Mac Pros in comparison to PC workstations, there lies a level of inflexibility that big companies or corporations just cannot invest in...

    I am struggling to get a new machine (hopefully a mac) for compositing work as the big wigs with the money don't want it to be a single use machine... their short sightedness, yes, but still if apple dedicated more efforts into Pro hardware and software development than they have the past few years (or decade) then perhaps they would have already conquered 'the industry'.
  21. Moderator emeritus


    Dec 10, 2008
    Phenom II X6 1100T is the only CPU that can somehow battle against the CPU in high-end iMac. The truth, albeit a sad one, is that currently AMD cannot provide a CPU that could beat Intel's high-end offerings. AMD Llano and Bulldozer which are due in June/July will hopefully change the game though.

    High-end iMac and Mac Pro have very similar CPUs in terms of performance as well.

    I must give you points that for once, someone is able to admit when he is not right. Don't see that very often nowadays. Keeps the discussion mature and reasonable :)
  22. thread starter macrumors 603


    Jan 8, 2009
    I've given Premiere Pro a shot at the recommendation of many and it's a big difference from previous versions. Being cross platform it's steadily gaining ground… and I feel you, it's a tough ride these days trying to wait out the direction Apple is heading, especially for businesses who need to make long term investments.

    Sadly this is what I heard from inside sources. From what I was told, it's a management team that isn't equipped to handle development, engineers that are clashing with designers and Apple's lack of financial resources for the necessary improvements. I was a little surprised with the news as she has always been pretty upbeat about Apple Pro-apps for her work, that changed after working with the team beginning last fall.

    haha I try man, I hate when people get nasty and aren't open to being wrong or learning from others. Isn't this what the internet and forums are for, learning? If you can't admit you're wrong about something, then you don't learn and become a better person (albeit in work and life) :)
  23. macrumors 603

    Sep 19, 2003
    I agree, Apple could use a "prosumer" Mac. Right now we have consumer iMacs and expensive Professional Mac Pros. There's room for something in the middle.

    Don't worry, we're not going to have HFS+ forever. Apple had to abandon ZFS due to licensing issues. MacRumors posted hints that Apple was hiring for FS engineers.

    Apple likely abandoned true RI when they realized it wouldn't look very good...they're clearly going for the "retina" approach like iOS.
  24. macrumors 68030


    Oct 3, 2009
    Apple makes loads of money from iDevices, because they're cheaper, have a shorter life cycle, and they're fashionable, unlike computers, which many people don't even care much about. Most people care more about their phones than their computers. I'm not saying that's a bad or good thing, just an observation.

    The "prosumers" are in minority, the ones that care more about their computing experience and care about the level of control they have over it. However, I don't think Apple is ditching the prosumers at all. I just think that they have a new, iDevice line that they're really "excited" about, and it drives their innovation in ways that they want to integrate them into their computers as well.

    As for FCP, I would wait and see the next release until I say anything. If it sucks, there's always Premiere Pro, which is great and will keep getting updated regularly.

    All I want from Apple is to keep the - albeit low - level of control the user has over their computer, and not limit us with things like being unable to remove the Launchpad from the dock.
  25. macrumors 68000


    Jun 20, 2003
    Brisbane, Australia
    Holy Jesus. I feel I have read variants of this exact thread for almost a decade and a half. "Apple doesn't care about professionals." "Fix the ****ing Finder!" "HFS+ is outdated!" "WHERE'S MAH MID TAOWA!?"

    Yet, year after year, professionals like myself continue to use and love Apple, it's OS and it's pro software. Why? Because the options are much worse.

    I'd rather cut my own eyeballs with razorblades than use Avid, and Premiere is a joke. FCP only looks bad in light of recent advancement in APPLE software, like Lion and Aperture. Professional software takes time to develop and professionals hate change more than any. Hence you don't see the radical departures in their interfaces nor the speed of development in something like iLife.

    Motion was never intended to replace Shake. Instead Apple is working on a replacement implementing the best of both worlds (or so we have heard for years, who knows the status of it now).

    Grow up Generic Apple Whiner. I've seen it all before.

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