Apple should respect the Surface Pro

Discussion in 'Alternatives to iOS and iOS Devices' started by pesos, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    #1
    So 24 hours with the Surface RT has made a couple of things clear... This device is certainly not for everyone, but for some people it will be fantastic. It is a joy to work on - and that's something I couldn't say about the 3 iPads I've owned. The reality is that the iPads seem like toys now - great for consumption but that's it. The Touch and Type covers (both with integrated trackpads) are a gamechanger, making even the RT an extremely competent work machine. Word/Excel work great, the activesync mail client is very intuitive once you start to get the hang of general Windows 8 gestures. Being able to use RDP with a keyboard and trackpad makes this machine pretty much fully functional for me. Also being able to actually plug in usb peripherals of all shapes and sizes, including storage, is great. It immediately makes the iPad's artificial limitations and reliance on iTunes seem even more ridiculous than they did before.

    But obviously being on ARM means app limitations. I loaded up Skype, Lync, Netflix, and Citrix. That's about it. So lots of work for MS to do there... However...

    The PRO is what is really going to shake things up. A similar form factor to the RT with a 1080p screen and x86 compatibility, together with the touch/type covers (and a new iMac for my desk) means a replacement for my MBP retina. Last year when I travelled abroad for 2 months I picked up a MBA, which was a good solid travel machine. The Surface makes it seem clunky and heavy.

    Don't think I am an Apple hater. I love Apple hardware. I am an OS X hater, lol. But I am very glad Microsoft is doing good things here - because it's long overdue that somebody start pushing Apple... Google has failed to do so and Apple's innovation has stalled somewhat because of it. Looking forward to what the next year or two will bring from both MS and Apple...
     
  2. macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2011
    #2
    I like Microsoft's vision of future computing more than Apple's and Google's. However, Windows 8 and Surface are such first-generation products, and I don't think it'll be until 2.0 at least that they start gaining some traction. They're truly just not fully done. I really want a Surface 2.0 to be my next computer.
     
  3. macrumors 68030

    G51989

    Joined:
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    Location:
    NYC NY/Pittsburgh PA
    #3
    Apple loves to talk about the post PC era, which doesn't exist btw, you'll still need a stand alone non mobile device at home to do heavy lifting and mass amounts of media, weather it be the next xbox, or a desktop/laptop PC sitting on a desk. You need that device.

    The Surface is the true " Post PC " device, it acts as a laptop, and a tablet.

    Where as the iPad is simply an overblown phone with limited Apps.

    ----------

    This, exactly.

    Microsoft is spot on with the future of consumer computing, and light enterprise computing, I think the Surface/Win 8 tablets are gonna do big things.

    Mine JUST CAME an hour ago, I won't post to much about it till I used it for a few days.

    But yes, Apps are a little lacking, but the basics are covered. And Its Microsoft, the largest software company in the world, they'll get right on it. Don't doubt that for a second.

    But so far, the Build quailty of this device is insane, I'd put it easily at just as good as any Apple product, maybe even a little better.

    Alot of engineering and care went into this product.
     
  4. thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    #4
    Exactly right about the build quality...

    Softwarewise, the Pro will obviously benefit from running full blown Windows 8... That instantly makes the app question moot and makes it a MacBook Air (and other ultrabook) killer...
     
  5. macrumors 603

    nuckinfutz

    Joined:
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    #5
    It sounds a lot like the love for the Surface is coming from those people that essentially want the rehash of a laptop.

    I think the general consumer has moved on from the mythology that computers would suddenly turn them into MS Office mavens eagerly churning out spreadsheets and nicely formatted word documents.

    Microsoft is going to have to appeal to the masses and not just the corporate drone that wants a lighter MS Office cruncher to carry around.
     
  6. macrumors 68030

    G51989

    Joined:
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    #6
    Well the Macbook Air doesn't exactly sell in huge numbers compared to PC Ultrabooks, so it doesn't need killed.

    And yes, the Pro will be an amazing Hybrid, I can't think of a better Tablet/Laptop Combo.
     
  7. thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    #7
    I get what you're saying but I think you're being a little shortsighted here. To me this is about dealing with the dreaded STD (schlepping three devices). If you can have a fully functional tablet, that with a flip of the cover becomes a fully functional laptop, where is the downside? As long as MS can deliver decent battery life on the Pro, it's a winner and Windows 8's strategy really starts to make sense... And iOS all of a sudden feels incredibly limited.

    Even on the consumer side, if we're going to talk about myths, how about the myth that you can have an iPad as your only computer... Impossible. Surface Pro? Complete computer replacement in a tablet form factor. Compare the price of a Surface Pro (admittedly higher than that of an iPad, and rightly so given the functionality) to the price of an iPad+11"MBA and I think it's compelling for consumers, students, and more...
     
  8. macrumors 603

    nuckinfutz

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    #8
    I really shouldn't be so hasty to downplay the Surface. Perhaps I'll head to a store and check it out. I'm thinking about building a mini ATX rig based on Win8 and I think a Surface tablet would be more palatable for me than an Android tablet in the long run.

    We'll see. Though I must admit ..having Microsoft be a non-factor is odd. It's time for them to get back in the game in a big way. Next couple of years will be fun.
     
  9. macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    #9
    The surface is a lousy expensive laptop wannabe. But its better than I expected.
     
  10. G51989, Oct 27, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012

    macrumors 68030

    G51989

    Joined:
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    #10
    The Surface is for people who want both, its nojt so much a rehash of a laptop, and its not so much a tablet, its an entire new catogory of computing device, and clearly people like it, otherwise they would not have sold out of the 32gb model, and they wouldn't be lining up at Microsoft Stores/Retailers to get one.

    The general consumer doesn't really move on from anything, the general consumer buys whatever is shiny and advertised alot.

    Again, people lined up to buy up the last of the 64GB models after the 32GB sold out, so clearly, some consumers want this.

    It doesn't have to sell in iPad numbers to be a success.


    The surface is MUCH MUCH MUCH more than an office tablet, its built to be able to be used in the enterprise world, with perfect network/system integration. Its built to be productive and easy to use.

    Its also built to cater to the consumer, remember, the iPad launched with a bunch of blown up phone Apps and almost no Apps for iPads only, and it was still a success.

    The Microsoft App store will grow very very quickly.

    As I've been saying, the Surface isn't a full blown Laptop, tho the pro almost is, and its not a tablet per say, it can act as both. Unlike an iPad for example,. it can actually replace your laptop.

    I think this new vison that Microsoft has for personal computing is a very good one. For the consumer.]

    Don't get me wrong, the iPad is a great device. But its just a blown up iPhone, and yes, you can get cases for it that have kickstands, and spend more money on keyboards, and get a ton of 3rd party Apps to do what a surface will be able to do, but it'll be way more expensive, not integrate with Windows as well as a surface will ( business's do care about that ).

    The iPad is something I see as a general consumer device, that only really does enterainment, Movies, eBooks, ****** games, broswing,. Stuff like that.

    While the Surface/Pro/Win 8 tablets/Win RT tablets will be the creation devices.
     
  11. macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    #11
    Pro is likely going to be twice the price, the same price or more than a 11" MBA. Will probably weight as much or more, be as thick or thicker than a MBA. Ends up as a lousy laptop with bad keyboard, lousy trackpad for the same price. This isn't new. There have been touch windows pcs available for a long time.
     
  12. macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #12
    Have you used the Surface? Mine just came.

    The Windows RT OS is pretty buttery, not iOS buttery smooth, but very very very good. MUCH better than I expected.

    The Build Quality is easily equal to Apples, in some aspects I'd say its better than Apples, Microsoft did a super great job on this.

    The Type cover is EASILY the best mobile keyboard on the market, hands down. After only an hour of using it.

    The screen isn't Retina, but still looks damn good.

    App store for Windows RT is small, but so was the iPads store when it first came out, don't worry. The Microsoft App store will soon explode with tons of Apps.

    I love my RT with its Yellow type cover already, super awesome. Whenever I don't need my 7000 dollars ( not to brag, but to give you an idea of its specs, I make simulations at big blue for a living, I need power on the go ) laptop, I'll be taking this with me, I can almost type as fast on the type cover as I can on a full sized laptop keyboard.

    I'll be getting a pro as well, apps won't be a problem there, at all.

    And I thought I would really hate Windows 8, but I have it installed on 2 of my PCs, installing on my bootcamp drive on my iMac atm, and I've been using it on mah new surface.

    And Windows 8 is damn good. WAY better than what I expected.

    ----------

    Have you ever touched a surface RT? Its anything but crappy.

    The pro will be even better.

    And no, it will be much thinner than an MBA, and have a keyboard thats just as good, and that can be detached.
     
  13. thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    #13
    Price is unknown, but yes $999 is likely. The rest of your comments are quite misinformed; I guess you didn't bother to actually check the specs:

    Surface weight: 2 lbs
    MBA 11" weight: 2.38 lbs

    Surface thickness: .53"
    MBA 11" thickness: .68"

    Surface resolution: 1920x1080
    MBA 11" resolution: 1366x768

    Surface power: Ivy Bridge/HD4000
    MBA 11" power: Ivy Bridge/HD4000

    Surface storage: 64GB or 128GB, still unknown
    MBA 11" storage: 64GB

    Surface ram: 2 GB
    MBA 11" ram: 4 GB

    I find the type cover to be incredibly usable - both the keyboard and the trackpad. Every bit as usable as the keyboard on the air. The touch cover really surprised me - it is also surprisingly usable.
     
  14. MRU
    macrumors demi-god

    MRU

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2005
    Location:
    Ireland
    #14
    I'm looking to sell my MBA in the new year for a Surface Pro. I've considered a modbook pro, but the surface pro at $1k would still be less than half the cost of the modbook pro.

    I think it's going to be great for sketchbook pro, illustrator & corel painter 12 with the included Stylus with the surface pro.

    Would I prefer a proper tablet to run Mac OS instead.. yes.. But that's not going to happen just yet anyway. So the surface pro looks to me like the best combination of decently designed hardware aesthetics and software.
     
  15. macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    #15
    Doesn't sound very different from what I said.
    Does the thickness you list include the type cover? Need to count it in.

    The type cover seems ok as a keyboard, still awful small trackpad vs the MBA.
     
  16. thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    #16
    Good call - .12" for touch cover makes it .65" Surface vs .68" MBA. However, just try and remove the keyboard from your MBA to use it as a tablet :D

    Yes the trackpad is smaller, however I had no issue navigating with it whatsoever - plus I actually found that I only used it for a few specific things, and was using touch for probably 85% of what I was doing. Touching the MBA screen gets you nothing but smudges ;)

    You've got to admit you were completely off wrt the weight, with the Surface not being heavier but actually coming in nearly half a pound lighter. Also, the Pro's 1920x1080 resolutions is great - my biggest gripe about the MBA is the 1366x768 resolution (also my biggest gripe about the RT).
     
  17. macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    #17
    Yes I have tried Surface.

    $7000 Windows laptop? Is that even possible? Certainly not comparable to the Surface's specs. You can easily get a cheap junky laptop for less than the price of a Surface w keyboard. Here's an expensive one for $599 as a random example.

    No way you can say the type keyboard is anywhere near as good as the MBA keyboard and trackpad. Especially trackpad. Look at the trackpad size. Detachable. Yes. That is true.

    My complaint is that its a lousy laptop and tablet.
    Lousy laptop because the keyboard options aren't as good as a laptop. Trackpad way too small. But you're still forced to use the keyboard and trackpad with Office because Microsoft couldnt figure out how to make it anywhere near touch capable. Its not easy and Microsoft didn't even try. The ribbon interface is a travesty. Tons of tiny controls taking up vertical space in a 16:9 aspect ratio small display thats very short on vertical space to start with. But complaining about Office is another topic.

    If you essentially need a table and a keyboard to use it. Might as well use a laptop that does it better.

    If you want a tablet, you don't want to lug around a keyboard and you want/need the apps to be touch enabled. Its a travesty that Windows RT has the metro & window modes. It was stupid enough that Windows 8 has both, but RT has no real need for the windows mode since Microsoft won't allow any 3rd party apps to use that mode. Its only there because they couldnt rewrite Office in time.

    Overall, I will admit the Surface was better than I expected. I'm not wild about the idea of the Metro gestures, but once you learn them that provide some power.

    But Windows is Windows. When I played with it I was right away greeted with required updates and even anti-virus scan updates. Ah yes. The good old days of spending most of my time maintaining my machine instead of using it. Driver updates, OS updates, antivirus constant scans. The good old days.
     
  18. macrumors 68030

    G51989

    Joined:
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    NYC NY/Pittsburgh PA
    #18
    Good, spend some time with it.

    And yes, I have SLI 680M's, a Overclocked 3rd Gen i7 at 4.3ghz, triple SSD's, and 32gb of ram, attached to an 18 inch screen.

    I build simulations for pretty much anything people need ( I work for Big Ole Blue ), and when I'm on the go, I need all that power to get things done when I'm out and about.

    No, its not as good as a keyboard, but its DAMN CLOSE, I cant type at full speed on it for sure, but I can get pretty close, and its MUCH better than any iPad keyboard I've ever seen, even the high end logitech ones. So either the 3rd party vendors, or Apple is gonna have to step that up.

    I could go on for pages, BUT, let me make it simple. Your looking at the surface wrong, just wrong. its like thinking the iPad is a laptop replacement, it just isn't and the surface isnt' so much a laptop replacement, but an amazing suppelment imo. The best yet,

    But, when I'm done with work, if I'm out in the feild, and I don't feel like having a laptop to lug around my hotel room, I just un click my keyboard, lay on the couch, or bed, turn the TV on, and use it as a tablet, I have the best of both worlds. I can't do that with my Laptop, or an MBA, and I can't do it with an iPad, because the work I was doing, wouldn't have gotten done in the first place.

    I think you don't realize. The keyboard is attached magneticly, it has a virtual **** keyboard just like the iPad, if you dont want to " lug around the keyboard " which weighs next to nothing, don't take it with you. leave it at home, it offers choice.


    And Windows RT looks like its pretty good if I'm honest, its a step above iOS, which can't even multiask, my GF has an iPad 3. Don't get me wrong, that screen is awesome, and its built so so so so so good, ( so is the surface ), but the fact is, I can be typing an email.......then I get a text....read the text....go back to the email App....and all my text is gone...huh?

    There are only 4, and I'm starting to get into it, they've made some awesome innvoations with the surface, and I already love mine, sure the Apps aren't there, yet, but they will be. Remeber, Microsoft is the king of software.

    Windows RT is immune to virus and malware at the moment, and its secuirty is very good.

    Now, maybe thats how your computing life turned out, but I've NEVER had a Virus on my 98/ME/XP/2000/Vista/7 machines, ever not one. Not ever, and they install updates when I'm asleep at 4am.

    And OSX does driver updates, OS updates, and it has anti virus built in. And my Macs over the past 10 years have spend a decent amount of time in the Apple store being repaired ( I hate you iMac G5, Power Mac G5, 2011 imac, pismo, your all unreliable ****. But I love you anyway )

    And if constant scans are going on, you must have a terrible 3rd party dumpster Aplication taking care of it, like Norton.

    I think the Surface is an awesome product, I would its build quailty above Apples for the the time being, lits pretty fast, feels good, finger tracking is awesome, the gestures are good, battery life so far as been good.

    People lined up for these products
     
  19. Scrub175, Oct 27, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012

    macrumors 6502

    Scrub175

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    #19
    Very good unbiased reports here. It's really interesting to see real market innovation from MS as it will really drive all tech companies. I'm almost fully invested in apple now but am interested in what Microsoft could transform into finally. I never understood why my Xbox could not just connect with my desktop or laptop because they all are powered by Microsoft. This new ecosystem is very interesting. I love my Xbox and functionality provided from that device. It would take a great deal for me to abandon an iPhone and iPad though. More so the iPhone.

    My question is about the MS App Store... Will they support developers and embrace that community as a key to success? I feel apple really sees that as the path to hardware success, but imposes strict standards. I like seeing stats from apple about how much has been paid to developers. Google appears to be the opposite, not really publishing what has been paid out to the dev community. Is there a better place to evolve the development community that would ensure success of the MS App Store and will MS be brave/smart enough to embrace it? Will Microsoft protect the hardware brands to keep as few standards as possible to prevent App Store dilution like google?

    There is a right course that is pretty much laid out, will MS realize this and use the tremendous resources they have to gamble on and reap the rewards? I think MS is prepared to do this with the proof being the release of windows 8, as it's a major departure of what's safe and often criticized so far. Pretty brave first step.

    All this MS change has given me pause on purchasing any more apple devices until I learn more about the MS ecosystem. I am looking to purchase an iMac and will be pretty much complete with the Apple transition.
     
  20. macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    #20
    Corrected. If you remember MS has been doing tablets for nearly 13 years now, though not tablet hardware. They horrible at it back in 2000 and are still horrible at it now. Only difference now is they got a fancy new coat on their devices.
     
  21. thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    #21
    Always funny to see the fanbois put Microsoft down. RIM said the same thing about activesync for years... Then Microsoft quietly and unceremoniously put them in their place... Luckily for Apple they're a lot smarter than most of their customers...
     
  22. macrumors 6502

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    Dec 26, 2008
    #22
    I can, an iPad running a quad core A15+ arm cpu, and OSX Mountain Lion(or what 10.9 would be called).
     
  23. macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #23
    And knowing, Apple, you'll pay 2,000 dollars for that, and it still won't be able to multi task :p
     
  24. thread starter macrumors 6502

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    Mar 30, 2006
    #24
    Or plug in peripherals without at least a $29.99 adapter :D
     
  25. macrumors 6502

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    Dec 26, 2008
    #25
    Problem is we don't know what technology the Surface pen is and how the quality really is. It could be as good as wacom is, or it could be a sold work in progress like N-Trig. The Modbook on the other hand is using the tried and true wacom digitizer, but is bogged down by its high price, and Intel cpu.
     

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