Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

jettredmont

macrumors 68030
Jul 25, 2002
2,731
328
Re: XPensive?

Originally posted by psxndc
I hate MS as musch as the next Mac nut, but let's be real here: XP Professional is $199. OS X is $129.

Note that that is for an "upgrade", not for a full copy. Full copies, unless you get them from an OEM with a fairly restrictive attached license (can't be transfered to a new computer, etc), are a bit more expensive.

Not that you'll be buying anything but upgrades for OS X either (every Mac comes with an Apple OS, so any retail boxes are upgrades of that), but just wanted to clarify.
 

Phil Of Mac

macrumors 68020
Dec 6, 2002
2,036
0
Washington State University
Originally posted by MacBandit
Lynx has also been used for other products. I think Apple can get away with it because it's a non competitive product. That's how come they can use Mac OSX even though OSX is another operating system all together. They were able to get away with it as long as they kepth the Mac in front of OSX.

That was OS-9 (not to be confused with Mac OS 9). And Apple DID get sued :)

Originally posted by TylerL
...actually, OS X 10.0 was code-named "Cheetah".
Ironic, isn't it?

Only if you never used Public Beta.

Other than a couple last-minute feature changes (and the inclusion of iTunes instead of the Public Beta MP3 Player), the only difference between Mac OS X Public Beta and Mac OS X 10.0 (Cheetah) was the fact that Cheetah removed all the debugging code and was much faster. Optimization between Public Beta and Cheetah made it usable on my iMac 233 :)

Originally posted by fabsgwu
To further beleaguer the topic, XP is a different product alltogether as well. Its based on NT---3.1, 95, 98, ME (all of the previous consumer products) were based on DOS.

NT was also called Windows.

Longhorn, BTW, is a complete rewrite of Windows, so it's completely different too.

Originally posted by gopy
And do the handles on the G5 look more like spoilers than handles, or is it me?

They do.

Originally posted by iPC
"Jag-u-are" ;)

Jag-u-are is an overpriced Ford. Jag-wire is the operating system. Jag-whar is the cat :)

Originally posted by SubGothius
About a year and a half ago...yours truly predicted that Apple would increment the Mac OS a full version number...only when their support for the X11 standard...was built into the standard Mac OS...to such a degree that Gramma and Grampa Macuser...could download and unwrap X11-compliant source, compile and install it, then launch and use the resulting app just as easily as they would otherwise download and unwrap a .sit or .dmg archive, run the installer, then launch and use the resulting, traditional Mac app. Only then would Apple change the OS name to..."Mac OS X11"

That would be big, but I don't see that as a major thing, really! By then, OpenOffice will be Aqua (and there very well may be an Apple office suite). Apple could come up with a free, iTMS-esque source distribution scheme, but I don't see that as worth jumping to version 11.

Originally posted by SubGothius
I think the cat codenames started as internal-only, but rumor-based eager anticipation referencing those codenames got so rampant that Apple decided to capitalize on all the free advance publicity. For later builds, they had been shifting towards wine-related internal codenames...Merlot and Pinot became renamed as Jaguar and Panther, respectively (IIRC).

The anticipation occurred for one product and one product only: Mac OS X 10.2 Jaguar. "Jaguar" had so much buzz associated with it that Apple made it the official name of Mac OS X.

Originally posted by SubGothius
Anywho, what code-naming theme should Apple move to, once they (inevitably) run out of nifty cat names? I kinda like the mythological angle, so long as (in light of the above anecdote) they stick to benevolent deities, mebbe demi-deities and heroes/heroines. Anyone for Mac OS X11 "Prometheus"? I kinda like it, think it'd be apropos in light of my prediction... :cool: :D

Prometheus was chained to a rock where birds pecked at his liver for eternity. Sounds more like certain other Apple products :)
 

jettredmont

macrumors 68030
Jul 25, 2002
2,731
328
Re: Re-using the same cat

Originally posted by Balooba
So what? Panther and leopard is also the very same species.

Actually, leopards and jaguars are quite different. Panther and jaguar are different colorations of the same (north american cat) species.
 

Phil Of Mac

macrumors 68020
Dec 6, 2002
2,036
0
Washington State University
Re: XPensive?

Originally posted by psxndc
I hate MS as musch as the next Mac nut, but let's be real here: XP Professional is $199. OS X is $129. I've had XP for about a year now and MS isn't expecting me to buy an upgrade this year. I bought Jaguar at launch last August and Apple is expecting me to shell out another $129 for Panther. The initial cost of XP is greater, but spread over the 2-3 years between upgrades, it's not as expensive as keeping an up-to-date Mac.

No one's forcing you to buy Panther. So you'd rather have a more expensive operating system, with less frequent updates, than a less expensive operating system that had more frequent updates available?

Is it bad that Apple *offers* you frequent updates? You don't *have* to buy them, your computer will continue to work with the current OS until the components fail, but you still have that option. With Windows, not only is it more expensive to update, but you don't get to update very often! You don't have the choice! With Apple, you at least have the choice.
 

Phil Of Mac

macrumors 68020
Dec 6, 2002
2,036
0
Washington State University
Re: Re: XPensive?

Originally posted by jettredmont
Note that that is for an "upgrade", not for a full copy. Full copies, unless you get them from an OEM with a fairly restrictive attached license (can't be transfered to a new computer, etc), are a bit more expensive.

Not that you'll be buying anything but upgrades for OS X either (every Mac comes with an Apple OS, so any retail boxes are upgrades of that), but just wanted to clarify.

It's still a full version. You can install it on a blank, newly formatted hard drive. It doesn't *require* any previous version.
 

jettredmont

macrumors 68030
Jul 25, 2002
2,731
328
Re: Re: Re: Really?

Originally posted by mjones4th
Ummmm........
Hyena's in the uhhhhhhh...... dog family?
Entirely too much discovery channel, sorry.

Mitzel this plik!

Umm, actually Hyena's are about as related to dogs and cats as dogs and cats are to each other. Hyenas are civets.

Although, there are canines called "hyena dogs" in south africa, or so Google says ...
 

jettredmont

macrumors 68030
Jul 25, 2002
2,731
328
Re: Re: Re: XPensive?

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
It's still a full version. You can install it on a blank, newly formatted hard drive. It doesn't *require* any previous version.

Are you sure you're talking about Windows XP upgrade here? I know Win 2000 upgrades DID require you to "prove" you had a qualifying OS by inserting the floppy or CD of the older version during installation. I don't have an XP upgrade here (full version only), but it seems odd MS would have reconsidered their long-standing upgrade-verification procedure.

Or are you talking about OS X? Which of course need not verify that the Mac with Mac ROMs installed indeed once held a previous version of Mac OS (classic or X) because ... well, all Macs with Apple ROMs installed ship with Mac OS of one flavor or another.
 

Phil Of Mac

macrumors 68020
Dec 6, 2002
2,036
0
Washington State University
Re: Re: The mac with nine lives

Originally posted by Tequila Grandma
I think it's a bit weird that they're latching on to the codenames of the products for marketing, but I suppose it does help some people to more easily tell them apart. I've always wondered just what will happen when they reach OS 11. Will they just ditch "X" altogether, will it be "OS XI", or will they just follow OS 10.9 with OS 10.9.6.7.5 etc etc etc, so that they'll never have to give up their precious X?

I think by that time it'll be time for a new rewrite of the OS. Mac OS X is just another BSD, with an Apple UI. I think it's only a transitionary OS into whatever's next. I'm thinking of an Apple/IBM collaboration into future OS technologies that will yield an entirely new Mac OS.

You have to realize that Mac OS X was a rebranded Rhapsody (with Carbon to make porting easier). Rhapsody itself was a desparate lunge to get to a suitably good operating system by buying and improving someone else's. To understand this, let's go back to the 1990's.

The entire thing started in the 1987 when various Apple development groups drew colored index cards. The blue index card went to the group in charge of updating and improving System 7 (hence their nickname, "Blue Meanies"). The pink index card went to the group in charge of future technologies. Hence, Pink, the first Apple attempt to replace the Macintosh System and Finder (this was pre-Mac OS). The red index card went to the group working on the most futuristic concepts that were well ahead of where Apple was.

The Pink group, along with some IBM OS engineers, were spun off into a separate enterprise called Taligent. IBM at this time was heavily invested in OS/2, after taking it completely in-house from a joint IBM/Microsoft collaboration. OS/2 was out, but IBM realized the value of collaborating with what was at that time still the top maker of personal computers.

Taligent promptly crashed into the ground.

Stymied again, Apple decided that they needed the System to have a kernel. Their kernel, NuKernel, was under development. A fully backwards-compatible version of the operating system, code-named Copland, would implement NuKernel. Immediately, everyone and their grandmother got transferred to the Copland project, and started developing all sorts of great ideas for the OS and the UI, to the point where Copland bloated. Technical difficulties with implemented protected memory, preemptive multitasking, and other high-tech features led Apple to split the project in two. Copland (the immediate goal) would be a part-way implementation, while Gershwin would implement everything fully. (They also added CHRP support as a goal when cloning began.)

Meanwhile, Apple started to die. From 1994 to 1996, it quickly crashed from "world's number one computer maker" to "bleeding money". That made future development hard.

In 1996, it was clear that Copland wasn't getting anywhere. The company was dying, CEO Michael Spindler was fired and Gil Amelio took charge. As CEO, Amelio restructured Apple, leading to 100 days of absolutely no new product releases. Chief Technology Officer Ellen Hancock made the rather obvious choice of releasing Copland in stages, gradually releasing various Copland technologies into System 7 until the kernel was implemented, yielding System 8. (Gershwin was System 9.) The name change to Mac OS came as a result of cloning (so System 7.5 was followed by Mac OS 7.6).

Later, when it became clear that Copland was doomed, Apple decided to develop a version of someone else's OS. Some of the choices were NeXTStep, BeOS, and Windows NT (seriously!). NeXTStep was chosen, and NeXT was purchased by Apple. Rhapsody (the NeXT-based operating system) was announced.

At that point, NeXT CEO Steve Jobs (officially a "consultant") managed to consolidate power, replacing Amelio's executive staff with Rubenstein, Avie Tevanian, and other NeXT veterans. Ellen Hancock was transferred to an obscure position (she later resigned) while only Fred Anderson remained on board. Amelio himself was fired after Apple lost 1 billion dollars in one quarter. Steve became the de facto CEO, then the interim CEO (for several years), then the full-time CEO. (Apple was officially looking for a CEO for several years after Amelio was fired.)

Jobs changed Rhapsody into Mac OS X, restructired Apple, and saved the company.

But the point is, Mac OS X was only an emergency out Apple took because their internally developed OS wouldn't work and the company was dying anyway. Now that Apple's recovered and relatively safe, they have the stability to successfully write a new OS. I'm sure they will do that.
 

jaedreth

macrumors 6502
Jul 11, 2003
295
0
In Iraq now
The History of Mac OS

Very good overview, Phil of Mac.

What I'm hoping for in an OS XI is a collaboration between OS X development and AIX. Licencing key AIX OS technologies, as this operating system is very different from most UNIX OS's. Heck, I wouldn't mind if Apple was bought by IBM, and made a subsidary. Steve still CEO and the current board of course, just with a few additions. Of course *that* will never happen.

Apple doesn't know UNIX os's enough to make a unix OS robust as AIX. They're already in bed with IBM with processors among other things, why not go all the way?

Well, Steve won't ever give up the reigns, so a buyout won't ever happen, but I hope Apple does do licencing with IBM to learn how to make a real UNIX os. And then put Apple's award winning gui on it. It would be even better if Apple could migrate it's non-darwin technology onto AIX itself, and sell a GUI version that is still Mac OS.

But all this is speculation. Perhaps by the time we reach Mac OS X 10.9, the OS will have matured enough that Apple will feel they don't have to go this route. But then what NeXT?

Jaedreth
 

Phil Of Mac

macrumors 68020
Dec 6, 2002
2,036
0
Washington State University
Re: Re: Re: Re: XPensive?

Originally posted by jettredmont
Are you sure you're talking about Windows XP upgrade here? I know Win 2000 upgrades DID require you to "prove" you had a qualifying OS by inserting the floppy or CD of the older version during installation. I don't have an XP upgrade here (full version only), but it seems odd MS would have reconsidered their long-standing upgrade-verification procedure.

Or are you talking about OS X? Which of course need not verify that the Mac with Mac ROMs installed indeed once held a previous version of Mac OS (classic or X) because ... well, all Macs with Apple ROMs installed ship with Mac OS of one flavor or another.

I was talking about OS X. Upgrade versions of OS X require a previously installed version of Mac OS X in order to *function*. They don't even have a full copy of the OS. These are the ones you download from Software Update :)
 

ryanmil1

macrumors newbie
Sep 14, 2002
8
0
Develop a new os and make the software manufacturer's rewrite the software again? I doubt it. Maybe in like 10-15 years there will be a completely new mac os but that is centuries in computer time. Why would apple write a new OS when they have a OS the is stable and modern? I'm guessing that OSX will have a life time similar to the original mac os.
 

Phil Of Mac

macrumors 68020
Dec 6, 2002
2,036
0
Washington State University
Originally posted by ryanmil1
Develop a new os and make the software manufacturer's rewrite the software again? I doubt it. Maybe in like 10-15 years there will be a completely new mac os but that is centuries in computer time. Why would apple write a new OS when they have a OS the is stable and modern? I'm guessing that OSX will have a life time similar to the original mac os.

The original Mac OS was supposed to be replaced in 1995 :)

Backwards compatibility is an issue, but I honestly think that Apple needs some new OS development. We have a modern OS now. What we *need* is the OS of the future. Beyond modern. Beyond Unix. Beyond anything we've ever seen before.
 

SiliconAddict

macrumors 603
Jun 19, 2003
5,889
0
Chicago, IL
Re: XPensive?...hell yessssssssss

Originally posted by psxndc
I hate MS as musch as the next Mac nut, but let's be real here: XP Professional is $199. OS X is $129. I've had XP for about a year now and MS isn't expecting me to buy an upgrade this year. I bought Jaguar at launch last August and Apple is expecting me to shell out another $129 for Panther. The initial cost of XP is greater, but spread over the 2-3 years between upgrades, it's not as expensive as keeping an up-to-date Mac.

Now I do use and love my mac more. Thus spending more on my mac is worth it. But am I not going to buy Panther. Until I see somehing that is worth the $129 to me. I saw it with Jag. I don't see it with Panther

-p


Nope. XP Pro full version (Not upgrade) is $299 off the shelf. This includes a single license for a single PC. (with the ever so fun product activation crap thrown in as a free bonus.)
Compare that to Apple that has Jag for $129. In addition for a $100 cheaper then what microass offers a single license of XP you can get 5 licenses in the family pack. Neither Apple or MS are cheap but at least apple doesn't make you bend over when they take your cash. :eek: ;)

PS- I have a running bet with a friend of mine that Longhorn is going to retail for $250 for just the upgrade and a cool $400 for the full version.
 

jaedreth

macrumors 6502
Jul 11, 2003
295
0
In Iraq now
OS of the Future

What Apple needs is a quasi-ai OS.

Visualize having a microphone as a standard and built in input device.

As you sit down at your computer, the iSight senses you're sitting in your chair, and recognizes your visual profile and opens up your user. It checks the time of day, and says as appropriate, "Good (morning/afternoon/evening), <your first name>." You reply back, "Good morning, Hal, please look up my Apple stock." You just put the computer together last night, so it hasn't had it's ai routines programmed yet. The computer repsonds, "I'm sorry, Jack, but I don't understand what you want me to do. Can you please show me so I know for future reference?" You reply, "Sure."

You then open up Safari, and go to livepage.apple.com, and enter in AAPL under the stock ticker. You then indicate to the computer you've completed the requested task.

The computer replies, "So that I understand each step, what action is implied by "look up"? I reply, "Opening Safari." The computer replies, "I understand. How about what you mean by stock?" I reply "URL livepage.apple.com, as it has a stock ticker and lookup." The computer replies, "I understand. How about the value Apple?" I reply, "Putting the value "AAPL" into the stock ticker." The computer replies, "I understand." It summarizes. "So when you ask me to look up apple's stock, you want me to open safari, go to the stock ticker section of livepage.apple.com, and enter the value "AAPL" into the stock lookup?" I reply, "This is correct." The computer replies, "Can you give me another instance of looking up stock for comparison?" I unstruct the computer to pull up a web page to look up companies and their stock letters, so that the computer will know to look up the stock code by a request to look up the stock for the company name.

The computer then asks, "Is this the only way to "look up" information?" I reply no. Then I start to go into other ways I can look up things, searches, network lookups, and I give the appropriate examples.

So each person can customize the AI to respond to them and understand them by their own vocabulary and word usage.

To me at least, setting up the computer would be half the fun. Then imagine how much time I would save by giving verbal commands.

Of course, voice and language recognition must come a long way before this can occur. But this is where consumer Operating Systems will go next, and I'm sure Apple will do it best, but I also want Apple to do it first.

Jaedreth
 

MacBandit

macrumors 604
Originally posted by jettredmont
Yeah, and Panthers are just Jaguars (some call only black jaguars "panther" while others call all jaguars "panther" and black jaguars "black panthers" ... I think the first group is more "correct").

Technically a Panther is neither a Jaguar or even a cat. Panther is the name of the Genus for many large cats including Lions, Jaguars, Leopards, and Tigers.
 

gopy

macrumors newbie
Jul 24, 2003
27
0
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Don't you mean "I do not understand"? ;)

Sorry the nerd in me couldn't resist.

Don't you mean, "I am sorry..."
sigh... I thought I'd put Trek behind me since Voyager...
 

edenwaith

macrumors 6502a
Aug 7, 2001
689
90
Puma, Cougar, Mountain Lion

Originally posted by MacBandit
Kind of funny they're going to reuse one cat twice. They've already used Puma and now they have Cougar registered. They're the same cat just a different regional name used here in the US.

Good point. Or they could have gone for three and added mountain lion to the mix.
 

MarkCollette

macrumors 68000
Mar 6, 2003
1,559
36
Toronto, Canada
Originally posted by MacBandit
All the recent names for Microsoft operating systems come from the Whistler/Black Comb ski area in British Columbia. Longhorn is the name of a a bar in a town near the ski areas.
...

Should we be looking forward to MS Avalanche, then? ;)
 

MarkCollette

macrumors 68000
Mar 6, 2003
1,559
36
Toronto, Canada
Re: 10 v. 11

Originally posted by fabsgwu
I actually think Apple would move to 11, 12 etc. were it not for the great job they've done branding 'X'...

Somehow XI and XII don't look so great, not as instantly identifiable as X. Besides 10's a nice round number :rolleyes:

Right, because it won't be confusing when Mac OS X 11 is released, along with further improved X11 support...

Or When Mac OS X 25 comes out with even better networking support...


- X11 is how most Unices do graphics
- X25 is a networking protocol in the same genre as TCP-IP
 

andyduncan

macrumors regular
Jan 21, 2003
172
0
Re: The History of Mac OS

Originally posted by jaedreth
Apple doesn't know UNIX os's enough to make a unix OS robust as AIX.

How do you even know? Do you work in HR at Apple? Do you have a list of each employee's qualifications? Do you even know what you are talking about when you say "Robust"?

There are a ton of talented UNIX heads at Apple who would take great offense at your assumption.
 

MarkCollette

macrumors 68000
Mar 6, 2003
1,559
36
Toronto, Canada
Originally posted by ryanmil1
Develop a new os and make the software manufacturer's rewrite the software again? I doubt it. Maybe in like 10-15 years there will be a completely new mac os but that is centuries in computer time. Why would apple write a new OS when they have a OS the is stable and modern? I'm guessing that OSX will have a life time similar to the original mac os.

I agree. Operating Systems take at least 10 years to mature to full usability. Look at GNU Linux, which from the first development until mass (server) acceptance, took about ten years. MS Win95, which started at least as early as 1992, lasted until MS WinME was replaced by XP Home. SunOS, Solaris, etc...

If Mac OS X 10.0 came out a few years ago, then we've got at least eight more years until the Apple dev team has put their last finishing touches on it. That will include revisions to work with devices that haven't even been thought of yet.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.