Assisted Killing...

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by TheMonarch, Oct 5, 2005.

  1. TheMonarch macrumors 65816

    TheMonarch

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    #1
    I don't want to start a thread with an article for people to read, I'd rather type something up and give my opinion. Anyways...

    I just read that the courts are in a tight position on "Assisted suicide", I think its just wrong. Why should it be legal for someone to kill people as their [or part of] job? I don't care if its consent or not, If you don't want to live, you should do something about it, not have someone else "help you". I understand that some may be in constant pain and suffering, and may want to end it, but just don't think its right for someone to come and "put and end to your misery"


    Killing is killing, plain and simple. Don't do it...
     

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  2. eva01 macrumors 601

    eva01

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    #2
    however if these people that want to die are religious then of course they can't do something about it or they get eternal hell.

    I am for mercy killings. That is just how i feel.
     
  3. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #4
    i am perfectly comfortable w/ doctor-assisted suicide and believe the right of self-termination:
    1. should be preserved
    2. should be as humane and painless as possible
     
  4. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #5
    What Zim said.


    Lethal
     
  5. Xtremehkr macrumors 68000

    Xtremehkr

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    #6
    Ok, let's get straight to the point.

    Does "please help me die" = killing?

    I believe the debate is over "assisted suicide," and not assisted "killing." Mostly because one cannot kill themselves. There is a separate term for that called suicide.

    So in order for this discussion to progress, we should come to an agreement on whether or not assisted suicide is killing.

    Given that a person could commit suicide by themselves, it would not be an issue. But some people are in such a condition as to need help in that matter. And so, they ask for assistance in the matter, which seems to be at the heart of the matter.

    Framing aside. If a person wants to end their life, but can't, is it unreasonable to ask for assistance in the matter? If it is reasonable, what safeguards should be provided so that people can be assured that it was, in fact, what the person desired. Instead of being a potentially criminal act perpetrated by those who may have had something to gain from the death of that person.

    Either way, the basic question is; if a person wants to die, but is unable to achieve that by their own will, is it wrong for someone else to assist them to achieve what they wanted.

    I fail to see where "killing" is a part of this, unless the person who died really wanted to continue living. In which case, it would be a murder, not an assisted suicide.
     
  6. TheMonarch thread starter macrumors 65816

    TheMonarch

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    #7
    I agree with this one, but not with the other one. It is no longer "self" termination when you have someone else killing you. I think its just plain wrong for someone to kill someone else and on top of that be paid for it.
     
  7. tristan macrumors 6502a

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    #8
    Is killing always wrong? What if you're in the military? What if you're killing somebody in self-defense? Or to save somebody? What about state execution? So killing is not plain and simple at all.

    The problem I have with social conservatives is they want to impose their preferences on everyone else. Instead of saying "*I* would never get an abortion, do drugs, or end my own life, they say that *nobody* should ever do those things, and they want to back up that morality with legislation and penalties. Well, who are you to tell me whether I have the right to end my own life or do anything else with my body? And if I'm unable to do it myself, why shouldn't a doctor or family member assist me?
     
  8. TheMonarch thread starter macrumors 65816

    TheMonarch

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    #10

    I don't know about you, but the picture of the old lady I posted earlier, she seems to be walking around fine. She could easily be holding something else instead of a sign to end he misery...
     
  9. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #11
    What if you can't kill yourself? What if you are a vegetable in a hospital, but you'd left instructions w/family or your doc that if you were ever in such a state you wouldn't want to be kept alive artificially.

    What about Kervorkian? IIRC he prepared the device and inserted the IV, but it was the person that had to press the button to actually receive the lethal does of chemicals.


    Lethal
     
  10. eva01 macrumors 601

    eva01

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    #12
    that is true about Kervorkian i believe. And i know if i was in a vegetative state i would not want to be alive. I would want to be killed, if they didn't kill me i would be PISSED OFF MAJORLY in the afterlife of whatever it is (if there is one)
     
  11. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #13
    we are going to have to agree on terms.

    i'm thinking of a situation where a medical professional does all the prep (including inserting needles), but the patient is the one who actually performs the last step (pushing a plunger, turning on a lethal drip, what have you). i.e. "assisted suicide"

    it gets trickier when the patient is physically unable to perform the last step, though i suppose even for a parapalegic a mouth device could be set up. perhaps voice activated?

    trickiest of all is when the patient has made express wishes, but is in a coma or otherwise unable to communicate. this would involve the medical professional performing the last step, such as in the schiavo case.

    if we can protect the doctors, then they can be free to do what's in the best interest of their patient, w/o having to worry about legal ramifications. afaik, dr. kevorkian is still in prison, e.g.

    where we run into trouble is when society starts deciding what's best for the patient. i'll cite the schiavo case again. and blaskillet4, i'll throw the question back at you: what gives you the right to overrule a decision made between a patient and his/her doctor?
     
  12. TheMonarch thread starter macrumors 65816

    TheMonarch

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    #14

    True, this is the gray area where my opinion isn't as strong. In veggie state, you're basically dead. Whats really pi$$ing me off is that there are live, conscious,thinking people complaining that they want to be killed...
     
  13. mpw Guest

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    #15
    What if she has a condition such as MS where she might wake the following day unable to fully control her movement? Would you condemn her to the rest of her life with no quality of life and in need of constant care while aware of the suffering to her family seeing her like that or would you suggest she takes action today to commit unassisted suicide while there is the possibility that she's got years of quality life left with her family?
     
  14. Xtremehkr macrumors 68000

    Xtremehkr

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    #16
    The argument is hinged upon a picture you provided?

    Perhaps she just supports her right to assisted suicide, should she become too weak to accomplish such a thing at a later date.

    Perhaps she is an able bodied person, like myself, who wishes to protect the right to choose when I wish to die, should I get to the point where I cannot do such a thing myself.

    I wasn't aware that the lady pictured was going to be the deciding factor for all who may get to the point where they wish to end their lives. Whether it is by their own hands, right now, or at a later date when they have decided that it is their time to go.

    That is not an argument that concerns focuses on the main issue anyway. Even so, what if someone is able to commit suicide by one means but chooses to do it in an other that requires assistance, what difference does it make?

    Who are you to decide what is right or what is wrong when it comes to when and how someone chooses to leave this world?

    /I seem to remember questioning the assertion of whether or not it is "killing," not whether it could be done individually, regardless of the point concerning incapacitation.
     
  15. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #17
    and this is where i think the debate should be held. imo, for terminal patients, the right to euthanasia is a no brainer.

    but what about the depressed?

    what about someone who's simply "ready to go?"

    what about those curious about the afterlife?

    what about someone who wants to donate both their kidneys to their younger twin brothers? (a slightly absurd scenario, but hey).
     
  16. TheMonarch thread starter macrumors 65816

    TheMonarch

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    #18
    Agreed.

    Needs help

    Needs help

    Needs help

    I'm not going to pretend I know all the answers...I don't know what to say here...
    _______________________________________________ _ _ _ _ _
    Instead of just abandoning people who have issues, we should help them. I mean, we help people with issues all the time...
     
  17. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #19
    not sure what you mean here.

    but not so much w/ mental health. remember when al gore was trying to make this an issue, how it's still not regarded as a "real disease" and insurance often doesn't cover it, or covers it only in limited amounts?

    but that's beside the point.

    i don't have an answer either, regarding if the depressed should be assisted. on one hand, the disease itself is probably a contributing factor to their desire. otoh, do we really need any more botched wrist slashings and bodies to scrape off sidewalks? here's where the humanity comes into play.
     
  18. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #20
    I think we should have suicide booths on public sidewalks. Just like in Futurama.


    Lethal
     
  19. bousozoku Moderator emeritus

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    #21
    I'm all for assisted suicide. In fact, it was traditional among samurai to have someone end your suffering even in a suicide to reclaim your honour. I've never understood the need to press one group's opinion on everyone else.

    Consider what happened with my dad last week. He, 76 with memory loss and some other unusual conditions, drove off in the minivan without a word. He still doesn't know why he did it. If I ever even remotely come to the point where I don't know what I'm doing or who I am, I want to die with my dignity intact even if my body would function long after my brain would cease to work correctly.

    What value is there to life if you can't enjoy it? Should a paralysis victim be forced live without hope just because a group of well-intentioned do-gooders don't understand the horror of everyday living in a shell?

    Let people die and when they can't do it themselves, let people assist them.
     
  20. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #22
    Are you a live, conscious, thinking person who's about to embark on a 12 month journey through the Hell of a painful terminal cancer?

    Me neither. So I shut my mouth and let them decide how they will deal with their suffering and their life. I suggest you learn to do the same.

    Watch The Barbarian Invasions (Oscar winner for best foreign language film -- it's French Canadian) and tell me you what you think.
     
  21. iGary Guest

    iGary

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    #23
    Go to a hospital and lay half-naked in your own feces and have your buttc leaned by complete strangers and pee into a bag while you lay unable to move because you have lower extremity cuffs, TED stockings, blood pressure cuff, heart monitor, IV's and all sorts of other things stuck in you while you wait to die.

    No thanks, I'll take a graceful exit.

    If you have had anesthesia, it is as easy as that.

    We grant the right to our pets, we deserve it, too.
     
  22. Chaszmyr macrumors 601

    Chaszmyr

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    #24
    No one asked to be born, so no one should be forced to continue to live, especially in the case of someone suffering through a painful and terminal illness. Not only should someone in that situation not be forced to live, they should be allowed to die in the most painless way possible. If I had my way, euthanasia would be legalized, and Kevorkian would be granted a presidential pardon.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think most people should go around killing themselves every time they get depressed, but if someone is afflicted by a painful terminal illness, it means they are going to suffer every day for the rest of their life - take a minute to think about what that means.
     
  23. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #25
    No, more like "Soylent Green".

    You know the scene where Edward G. Robinson goes to the suicide facility, and they're very kind, and they let him slip off quietly while he's watching beautiful movies of fields of flowers and listening to Beethoven's "Pastoral" symphony no. 6?

    I always thought that was one of the best scenes in motion pictures. (Not only for Robinson's serene death scene, but also his interaction with Charlton Heston, bemoaning the loss of beauty and pleasure in the world.)

    Anyway. If I were ever terminal, that's the way I'd want to go.
     

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