Bad news for Kerry

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by kuyu, Sep 1, 2004.

  1. kuyu macrumors 6502a

    kuyu

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    Sep 16, 2003
    Location:
    Louisville
    #1
    My best friend and old roommate has been watching the RNC convention. He watched three nights of the DNC one, and one night of the RNC one.

    A little background: My buddy is Dubya critic numero uno. He registered as a Democrat just after the 2000 election. We always talk about the issues and stay friendly as we have been friends since before we could vote.

    The kicker: After the McCain/Guilianni speeches on Monday he called me, and the conversation was a little different than our normal talks.

    He tells me that he can't make up his mind. However, after 4 years of anyone but Bush, he's beginning to question himself. He goes on to say that he doesn't agree with everything Bush does/says, he's starting to think that maybe Bush is the man we need right now.

    His reason: We start to talk about the reason's for war and brings up a good point. We conclude that most terrorist were poor/disaffected/angry youths. Angry that there is really no future in their countries. Then we talk about oil and the wells eventually running dry. He then brings up this point. "What's going to happen to the Middle East when the wells run dry? If those people don't have something to sell or trade that's not black and explosive, you'll have a whole region of poor/disaffected/angry youths. That's not good."

    Also, he points out that we're poor. We both make under 10K/year. Then he says "I'm technically poor, but I've got a house to come home to, a car, 100 channels, a job, a bank account, and what's so bad about that? Being poor here beats being rich over there".

    Followup: The next day he calls me to ask how he can change his party affiliation. He's switching to the independants (like me). He says that the democrat's platform is good, but not the most important right now. He said he'd rather see democrats take over once we know that America is safe in the longrun (ie, the Middle East is on par with other nations regarding diversified production and trade).

    I guaruntee he's not the only person out there doing the same thing. I couldn't have been more shocked if Zim and IJ told me they were voting for Bush. Thoughts??? :confused:
     
  2. Lyle macrumors 68000

    Lyle

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    Madison, Alabama
    #2
    This sounds a little fishy to me, which is to say, I don't think that hearing those speeches alone would have tipped the scales for someone who's been anti-Bush for the last four years. True, McCain and Giuliani both gave knockout speeches, but given the polarized state of politics at this point I don't see that they would have swayed someone who wasn't on the fence already.

    But hey, if he's going to vote Bush, who am I to dissuade him? ;)
     
  3. kuyu thread starter macrumors 6502a

    kuyu

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    Sep 16, 2003
    Location:
    Louisville
    #3
    Ahh, but don't forget he's got me filling his ear with evil conservative propaganda about democrats killing puppies and how democrats want to steal his paycheck to buy zoloft!!! ;) </sarcasm>

    He's a pretty straight shooter, and weighs both sides of the issues. He was anti-Bush at the same time as me, four years ago. I've come to the other side since then and I think he's just now doing that himself.
     
  4. alexf macrumors 6502a

    alexf

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    #4
    I think it might be time for him to see "Farenheit 911."

    If anyone can see this movie and still vote for Bush, there is definately something not right in the head... (and I do mean that respectfully)
     
  5. kettle macrumors 65816

    kettle

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    #5
    Yeah, I was the same the first time I watched Mutant Ninja Turtles, all I wanted to do when I came out of the theatre was karate chop everything and eat pizza. :rolleyes:
     
  6. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    #6
    Yes, but the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles we more enjoyable characters to watch on the big screen.

    And pizza definitely tastes better than crude oil.
     
  7. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    Colly-fornia
    #7
    Well that's a somewhat misleading thread title. I can't see how one person changing positions equates to 'Bad News for Kerry'. Particularly since I posted a thread a while ago showing several people who were switching from Bush to Kerry. I didn't make the leap from that to 'Bad News for Bush' though, that's kind of a stretch.

    Anyway, as long as people are thinking and not making decisions based on untruths such as Dems wanting to steal your paycheck, that's all I care about. Be informed and vote.

    BTW... Economically, the country has historically done better under a Democratic president so vote your pocketbook! ;)
     
  8. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    Jul 18, 2002
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    toronto
    #8
    wanna try it?

    i'm thinking it'll be best for the US in the long run if bush wins.
     
  9. Lyle macrumors 68000

    Lyle

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    #9
    Don't tease, zim. You know that if you change your tune, we're going to call you a flip-flopper. ;)
     
  10. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #10
    the really sad part is that it really might be better for the US on the long run...

    (and yeah not only you would be called a flip-flopper but you would be called a _french_ flip flopper ;) )
     
  11. diamond geezer macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2004
    #11
    Why and how does he think that poor disaffected youths are going to transport themselves thousands of miles away to attack the US? There are plenty of poor people all over the world already, why are they not coming after you guys already?

    The US is hated in the Middle East becouse of it's foreign policy, once the Oil has run out the US may cease to care what happens (Israel excepted) and stop bombing, invading, assisting the ovedrthrowing of Governements etc. Many of the reasons for this hatred may cease to exist (although people have long memories).

    How is it that the residents of the most powerful country in the world are scared of people that have almost no means of attacking them?
     
  12. diamond geezer macrumors regular

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    #12
    I used to read "Adolescent Radioactive Blackbelt Hampsters" comics.
     
  13. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #13
    i'm not teasing, and if i decide i do want bush to win, it's not because i think he's doing or will do a good job.

    quite the opposite.

    i'm becoming more convinced that the next several years are going to be a big wakeup call to this nation. markets crashing, iraq out of control, economic hard times, rising oil prices, et. al.

    for example, let's have a look at what paul krugman is saying about iraq in this piece:
    again, i think iraq is heading towards chaos. and i'm thinking, if kerry's elected, and iraq does fall apart, how will the media treat kerry? how hard will the GOP go after kerry for spoiling "bush's good work?"

    if the next few years turns out like i think -- and in my scenario, it doesn't matter who's in the WH -- the dems will take a serious hit and the GOP machine will roll on.

    rather, i say let's let bush sleep in the bed he's made. IF we can survive it (and that's a big if), in four years the GOP party will be unpopular and fighting amongst themselves. imo, the public won't go for much more of the neocon style of governance ("compassionate conservatism" my ass), and the party will have to move to a much more moderate stance or face extinction.

    that's why i'm thinking it would be best, longterm, for bush to win.
     
  14. neoelectronaut macrumors 68020

    neoelectronaut

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    #14
    Wow, did anyone just see Zell Miller's speech? He ripped Kerry the proverbial "new one".
     
  15. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #15
    Yeah, and then I watched Miller go nutso on MSNBC. (See the Zell Miller thread.)
     
  16. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #16
    My father registered to vote last month so he can go to the polls for the first time since I've been alive. I'm not even sure if he's ever voted in his life; he's always been very disillusioned with politics, saying that any vote is a vote for a guy who doesn't give a damn and won't change anything or help anyone, etc. Both my father and I live in a heavily Republican county.

    He's voting for John Kerry. Why? My brother's in Iraq and he's disgusted with the exceptionally brazen pomposity with which this administration conducts business.

    I think he's sick that they don't even really bother to cover stuff up anymore; they just spin it.
     
  17. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    Aug 1, 2001
    Location:
    Santa Cruz Ca
    #17
    This is a truly icky and complicated issue.

    On the one hand Zim is absolutely correct. Any way you slice it the Bush administration's choice to use Iraq as a "honeypot" was a bad one and whoever's next in the Oval Office will face a much bigger, meaner and more diverse group of International Fundamentalist Terrorists. Plus I really don't think it's sunk in just how close to the Taliban some of the ultra-right wingers pulling the strings of late in Washington really are. In some ways a political Scorched Earth effect may be the wakeup call this country needs. I just reaaly do not look foreward to living through it.\


    On the other hand, if we don't switch to diplomacy, or at least use SOME finesse the dammage to our credibility as a Nation and the added propoganda for those who use Islam as a weapon may make the situation close to unrecoverable without truly drastic intervention. If we don't get a clue soon there may be no option left but to do precisely what these extremists have accused us of all along: Truely Imperialist World Domination backed by full Millitary Occupation of most of the third world involving a massive Draft backed by WW2 style Nationalization of industry.

    So really it's a choice between a slim chance at Peace in the short run or an excellent chance of massive War in the short term followed by a God Emperor of Dune style "Peace" in the middle term.

    It must also be kept in mind that the culture we're dealing with over there is one that moved from Totalitarian tribalism with no resources to essentially the same culture with tremendous resources without the intervening cultural evolution the West took about 4000 years to refine.

    That is a culture with a long oral tradition in which Christain Europeans have been a popular villain (with good reason BTW) since about 1200 AD. The Judaic culture is even less popular: They've been the hated outsider since the dawn of recorded history (6000 years). When you add the fact that the average level of education and cultural sophistication is about where it was in Europe from 1100 AD to about 1500 AD it becomes a little easier to understand just how simple it can be to make Zealots out of Dirt Farmers.

    The Islamic world's rennaisance ended with the Crusades . The rise of Western civilization from the Dark Ages was, in large degree a direct result of the strip-mining of Islamic culture and the ruins of the Ancient civilizations in North Africa. In the minds of many in those places our power is a direct result of our ancestor's rape of their culture's peak period.
     
  18. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #18
    i could not in good conscious vote for bush, simply because i do not think he is the best man for the job.

    in addition, IL is now firmly democratic and will go to kerry. so my vote, really, makes no difference.
     
  19. katchow macrumors 6502

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    Dayton, Ohio
    #19
    i'm still waiting to see if my vote will mean anything this time (in ohio)...i will vote anyway, but there is something that really bugs me about the system.
     
  20. mypantsaretight macrumors newbie

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    #20
    It was like someone switched the channel away from Matlock at the senior citizen's home.

    If voting.... bah see my sig.
     
  21. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #21
    hmm actually the fights between islam and christianity took a lot longer.... (9 wars between austria and osmanic empire alone)
    so it's not only the crusades.. ;)

    just look up the myth/legend/history of the austrian arm of coats/flag:
    it goes back to the 3. crusade to the battle for Akkon (english spelling ?) where the white crusader coat of the Babenberger Leopold V. (the arch-duke of austria at that time...also know as "leopold the brave") was cover with blood of the sarcenes (sp?)... that when he took of the broad belt a white broad line was between the red parts of the coat soaked up with blood...

    and and don't forget the imperialism of the 19th...that pissed of a lot of people down there as well
     
  22. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    Penryn
    #22
    Well, from what I've read, the majority of the 9 11 guys were well-educated upper middle class types, they are heavily drawn to al Qaida, not least because bin Laden is from the same mold. They are disaffected though and a better comparison would be to the 60's kids of Germany, France and the US who rebelled against their parents. That is really what this is about, anger at their parents generation and their inability to lash out at them and or protest in their own countries due to totalitarian regimes. Of course I'm talking about the Sauds but this doesn't necessarily apply in Afghanistan or the other poorer countries of the middle east.
     
  23. jayb2000 macrumors 6502a

    jayb2000

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    #23
    Debunking the 'debunkers'

    Its not what Moore says, its who he gets his info from.

    http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/index.php?id=16

    Yes, its from Micheal Moore's page, but it is just links to all the souces of the movie, newspapers, 9-11 report, etc, that he used in building his movie.

    Unlike the page you referenced, it actually has links to sources, instead of one person's opinion.
     
  24. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #24
    While I agree with your assessment of the situation Kerry would likely face, I disagree with the idea that Bush and the neocon Republican movement will face damning unpopularity in the coming years if reelected (or reselected, as it were).

    We've come this far, and they've ****ed up so much and lied so bad and shown no remorse and they've still got half the country on their hook.

    Americans are stupid, mis- and uninformed and filled with abject fear. Because of this, a large number of them will vote for the macho toughguy.

    You know what? They'll deserve four more years of the *******. I'm going to Canada.
     
  25. Leo Hubbard macrumors newbie

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    Jul 13, 2004
    #25
    tata, another reason to vote for Bush. :D
     

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