Barbaric U.S.A

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by gekko513, Aug 20, 2004.

  1. gekko513 macrumors 603

    gekko513

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    #1
    I just read an article on nrk.no about polls of the public opinion in America.

    43% of the people think torture can be accepted in some cases.
    66% of the people think that starting a war on a country that has not attacked anyone else can be necessary in some cases.

    This is the public opinion in the only remaining super-power-country. I'm scared! U.S.A has even chosen to keep the death penalty, even when it has been proven that innocent people in some cases have been put to death.

    Maybe it would be a good idea to let the children recite the human rights instead of the national anthem in school. :mad:
     
  2. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #2
    Some of them even post here! :eek:

    Or just: "Treat Thy Neighbour As Thyself"?
     
  3. Abstract macrumors Penryn

    Abstract

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    #3
    Thy neighbour as thyself? I wouldn't want an American to treat me like a US citizen. :eek:
     
  4. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #4
    On second thoughts... :rolleyes:
     
  5. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #5
    to all the non-americans... at least realize that there are a group of us who don't feel this way and are working to turn the country around. unfortunately, money (or the lack thereof) all too often controls how much one can do... :eek:
     
  6. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #6
    sadly i can't find the article about a poll about the opinion of austrians towards the US

    about 35-40% in the poll said that "torture is somehow typical for how americans treat their enemies"

    kinda sad how the rather good reputation of the US went down the garbage can in the last 3-4 years
     
  7. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #7
    Shifting emphasis, and limiting my comments to "torture".

    What went on in the prison in Iraq is referred to as torture. Trouble is, there was little actual physical damage to the inmates. Humiliation, yeah, but nothing like that which is common in many, many countries on a daily basis. Common, I said, not isolated instances.

    The US is right next door to a country which regularly uses torture in routine criminal investigations: Mexico. Many countries in Central and South America do the same. Most countries in Africa and the middle-east routinely kill prisoners taken for relatively trivial crimes.

    The main difference between the US and most other countries is that we have this nasty habit of washing our dirty linens in public. We know we're not perfect, and raising hell about wrongdoing is one way to end it.

    Remember that it was lowly enlisted personnel who blew the whistle on the obscenities that Iraqi prison. Remember that investigations and courtsmartials ensued. Those who were peripherally involved and who were of higher rank have had their careers ended; some in disgrace. And oversight has been put into place to obviate future maltreatment.

    Sure is nice to hear from people who live in perfect countries, though. It's nice to know that there are some with no flaws whatsoever, peopled only by angelic creatures.

    'Rat
     
  8. gekko513 thread starter macrumors 603

    gekko513

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    #8
    So, in short, you're defending torture because some other countries are also using it. How convincing.
     
  9. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #9
    Ah the old 'well he did it, so I can too' argument. Are you really saying you want to keep company with countries that torture their prisoners 'Rat? Or is this just another of your 'Dangfinos' laying it out for those of us who don't 'get it'?

    Heck, it's common enough for people in their cars to be exceedingly rude drivers. Does that mean I and everyone else should sink to their level, or should some of us try to rise above and be better than those we criticize?

    Oh wait, you weren't really criticizing others for torturing...
     
  10. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #10
    Well, remedial reading didn't help anybody, did it?

    I resent people writing about the US as though we're the only country that ever does Bad Things, and imply that they, themselves live in countries which never, ever did any Bad Thing to anybody else, ever. I'm fed up with that BS.

    I pointed out that we take steps to end the doing of Bad Things. How is that twisted around to somehow mean that I believe in the doing of Bad Things in the first place? Sorry, but the absence of a rant on my part against perpetrators of Bad Things does NOT mean I favor them. But we do our taking-steps in public. We write about it, discuss it, and bitch like crazy to The Powers That Be (TPTB).

    Yeah, times change, and governments veer off into strange directions. Regardless, as a nation we're the same bunch of folks who spent blood and money so folks in Austria and Norway and a bunch of others would be free to gripe against us. I strongly support that right to gripe. It's a human right, whether or not other countries have a First Amendment such as we do. All I expect is a bit of rational thought in the process. There was little rational thought in the gripes against this country or against me, personally.

    Again: The events at the Iraqi prison were limited in extent, and are in no way typical of our military or our governmental policies. The perpetrators violated our laws and policies and appropriate punishments are being meted out. Since that cannot be said about numerous other countries' ways of behavior, I believe it's germane to point that out.

    'Rat
     
  11. gekko513 thread starter macrumors 603

    gekko513

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    #11
    So because I live in a country that does not use the death penalty and hasn't tortured anyone recently, I'm not allowed to speak my opinion on those subjects?

    It's very good the steps are being taken to end the doing of Bad Things. It's also very good that you discuss it in public.

    What I was pointing out was the horror that 44% of Americans don't always see torture as a bad thing.

    Helping someone out and doing good things, does not somehow build up as karma buffer that allows a country to do more bad things later on. WWII and other history is irrelevant when discussing present crimes.

    I was not referring to the Iraqi prison incident, I was referring to the American public's opinion. But since you're bringing particular incidents up. Prisoners recently released from Guantanamo bay are reporting about similar situations there.
     
  12. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #12
    so, you're accepting the official version of evens at abu ghraib, that it was lynndie england and a handful of others who simply went out of control, and not another version of events that the torture methods used were commanded from higher up, and ms. england is being used as a scapegoat.

    also, you do know that some prisoners died under suspicious circumstances, right? and that doctors were on hand to cover up the killings and other physical abuses?
     
  13. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #13
    I don't know about you, 'Rat, but polls like this one make the little hairs on the back of my next stand up, and I can hardly blame anyone outside of the US for being alarmed by our national mood and the cavalier way we seem to be treating issues like torture. Public opinion matters. At at time when we need the cooperation of the rest of the free world more than ever, our country seems to be veering off into a kind of us-against-them paranoia, a bunker mentality. People outside of the of the US actually notice this about us and respond accordingly. I also think it's high time for us to stop talking about what other nations owe us, and maybe start asking somewhat more grown-up questions about our place in the world.
     
  14. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #14
    Oh man. Look, if a county had targeted us with say 10 nuclear warheads and we knew 100% that they were going to use them, do we go in proactively and remove the threat? No? Are you kidding me? Do we as a soverign power not reserve the right to protect ourselves? Every nation should have the right to defend itself through OFFENSIVE action.

    As for torture. As has been discussed here before, even some of you on the left side of issues admitted that in some cases, torture is acceptible.

    Example. We get Bin Laden, and he has documents that there will be a strike in the US on November the 10th. But it doesn't say where. It will be a nuclear attack. Millions could die. Do you torture him? No? Are you kidding me? Call me, I will do it for the government as a private individual.
     
  15. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #15
    Have you so quickly forgotten the white-faced Senators and Congressmen as they left the viewing room where they had seen the REST of the evidence? Have you forgotten that the SAME STUFF happened at Guantanamo and Baghram airbase in Afghanistan?
     
  16. gekko513 thread starter macrumors 603

    gekko513

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    #16
    I realize that all inhumane and, to me, barbaric opinions exists in all countries, including my own, I also realize that the US is by far not the worst country.

    However, the high percentage from the poll is very scary, especially considering the power and influence that the U.S has in this world.

    And I'm very glad about the 56% of Americans who do not approve of torture and especially those of you who actively work to preserve human rights both in the U.S and outside.
     
  17. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #17
    Ok, so you don't use torture to get information from the guy who has, not let women attend school. Beat and killed their wives. Stolen a country from its people. Murdered thousands of people in the name of Allah. Used terror to kill American soldiers?

    I personally believe in an eye for an eye. If we get someone that is big, and has info. Use whatever means neccessary to extrapolate that information.
     
  18. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #18
    That was NOT the situation. If such a situation ever arises, ask me again.

    It is not. Nor is it useful.

    Yeah, we've seen one or two of those already: they were caught conducting private torture sessions in Kabul. Charming, patriotic fellows, I'm sure!
     
  19. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #19
    Yea, skunk. Read the poll.

    43% of the people think torture can be accepted in some cases.

    So in some cases, would it be Ok? It did not say ALL CASES. Yet, some of you read this, you read all cases. "The US people believe that torture is ok." That is not what the poll said. That is point I am trying to make.

    Ever been though torture training? I have, it does work because everyone has a point at which they will break.

    And you are right. I am a charming patriotic fellow ;)
     
  20. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #20
    You got it.

    Very Old Testament. Didn't you hear they published a New one?

    BTW, it's "extract", not "extrapolate": Bush extrapolated already.
     
  21. Chane macrumors newbie

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    #21
    If available, I would like to get some information on this poll in regard to the number of people polled and the location of these people. I don't doubt the legitimacy of your numbers, but I can see how a poll of, say the South, may differ from the North. Keep in mind that the US is a big nation that differs in opinion from region to region. You quote that number as the point of your opinion, so I would just like some perspective.

    I can understand Desertrat's POV. As a somewhat divided nation, we openly discuss our faults. It makes it quite easy for a citizen of another country to look upon the US with disdain. Take for example, Moore's F9/11. When an American watches that, he/she might form a negative opinion on the President and his Administration. When a non-American watches it, he/she is more likely to form a negative opinion on the United States as a whole. Perhaps this is why the rest of the world seems to have a distorted view on how average Americans think.

    On the topic of torture, I think it's wrong. I don't think the ends always justifies the means, even if people's lives are saved. I think a more proactive approach of improving our intelligence may decrease the need for our gov't to use torture.

    It's easy to spout idealism. It's tough to make it work in the real world. The responsibility of leading the United States is a daunting task with deciding what is "best for the nation." It's this point that I think most people refuse to empathize.
     
  22. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #22
    Yep, but still a vaild part of the bible to me. And what of those that don't believe in the New testimate?

    You are right on extract.
    :D
     
  23. gekko513 thread starter macrumors 603

    gekko513

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    #23
    If you knew 100% that they were going to attack you, then you would be at war, wouldn't you?

    Anyway, I think I get your point. Chances are there exists situations where offensive action is the only solution to avoid an even worse situation.

    My very strong opinion on this matter is that in such cases, as long as there exists some form of organized international community (like the UN), such offensive action must be organized or approved of by this international community.

    I did not start this thread to discuss whether or not the Iraq war was justified, because that has been discussed over and over again, but I guess you now know my opinion on that matter, too. :D
     
  24. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #24
    So if I argue that other countries levels of taxation are higher, and that makes it ok for us to raise taxes here by just a little bit if we make sure to talk about it for a while, does that make it ok with you? :p
     
  25. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #25
    Now you get my point. However, we as a county cannot rely on the UN to act. Sometimes the UN fails. As it did in the 90's in Kosovo. That was a NATO action, not a UN action. Every country should be responsible for itself. It is unrealistic to think that the UN with all of the politics that go on there can function as a military body. It can't. It is impossible. There are to many different political goals.

    Look war is simple. It is a means to settle a political dispute. Nothing more, nothing less. War should be last resort, and used when it has to be. However, there are times when it should be used offensively.

    Example. After Hitler took over the Rhineland, that should have been it. The allies should have, and really could have thumpped his ass at that point, thus avoiding WWII.

    I think of offensive proactive action in two ways. There is the type of offensive action that Japan brought onto Pearl Harbor, the type of action Al Queada brought on NY. There there is the type we brought to Saddam. For over a year, we told him, we are going to come and get ya. We even gave him a chance to step down and leave the country. Nope. It wasn't a sneak attack, he had every opportunity to get out. So was it preemptive. Yep, but not a sneak attack.
     

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