Brutal Honesty

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by skunk, Dec 22, 2004.

  1. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #1
    http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7164273

    Fantasyland? It's DisneyWorld Baghdad™. The spin and the reality are diverging so far it's going to be really difficult for anyone to bring them back together.
     
  2. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #2
    I thought everyone knew the administration had vastly misunderestimated the threat when the flowers and candy weren't forthcoming upon our troop's arrival. I assumed everyone realized the scope of this miscalculation when oil revenues never even came close to paying for the costs of this war. And again when it became clear that our troops (who were, under the original Pentagon war plans, supposed to be out of Iraq by now) would be in country for years rather than months. Or when the military had to resort to stop-loss orders to retain enough troops. Or when US citizens realized that some 40% of our troop strength in Iraq is comprised of National Guardsmen.

    Upping our troop levels for any extended length of time will potentially require a draft which would likely destroy the rest of the support within America for this action. Withdrawing without a stable democratic state will leave us vulnerable to claims that America can be beaten militarily which will embolden our enemies.

    But any election is not likely to produce calm. And so we continue to hold the soggy bag of crap that Iraq has become, hoping against hope that we can fix things before the bag breaks and gets all over our shoes...
     
  3. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #3
    at which point, so many people ask "what happened? when did it change?"
     
  4. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #4
    These guys are in a huge hole, and they're digging like there's no tomorrow.
     
  5. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #5
    In reference to the original post,

    I believe that is what you get when you insist on a policy/strategy that is based more on ideology and moralism than on realistic appraisals. It is one thing to use ideology and moralism to provide motivation for a particular action, which while not always justifiable is understandable, and incorporating those into the actual execution of the action, which seems indefensibly wrong-headed and across-the-board stupid.

    As to whether, at this point in the game, the Administration is still blissfully digging a deeper hole, that's debateable.

    US public sentiment is not infinitely patient on the matter of Iraq, and as time goes by, it is more difficult for the Administration to ignore and/or hide the mistakes they have made. The continued deaths of US soldiers, the costs, the continuing violence and the inability of the majority of the US populace to find a coherent, let alone positive strategy or outcome for this war will take it's toll.

    Bush managed to parlay the War (via some distortion) into re-election. At this point he has other issues he wants to focus on, including many Domestic Initiatives. These issues are important to the GOP and/or Bush's interests base. Continued messy involvement in Iraq could overshadow the rest of Bush's Agenda, erode support both within the GOP and with the populace for any of his agendas and possibly cause a strong Democratic resurgence at Congressional Elections in 2006.

    So it is my (hopeful) opinion that Bush and Co. will finally make some smart decisions for a change in Iraq. The situation is so far-gone at this point, it seems like it will be difficult to make any agreeable situation out of the mess.

    It seems likely that Iraq will be a black-mark on Bush's record in the History books, and that it may be too late for it not to have damaging political repercussions for the Administration and the GOP. I do believe, however, that at last positive efforts will be made towards constructive resolution of the Iraq situation, if for no other reason than self-interest.
     
  6. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #6
    What kind of positive efforts from the administration could you see taking place? The only one I can see is raising troop levels, but I'm unconvinced that a military strategy involving more repressive occupation helps us at this stage. But even supposing I'm wrong about that, continuing elevated troop levels has it's consequences both in Iraq and here at home.

    The other choice is to make as face-saving of a withdrawl as we can after propping up some form of Iraqi government that may or may not be as repressive as Saddam. That government will either be seen as a puppet of the US (most likely) or an Islamic state. This War on Terror that was supposed to prove once and for all that Americans can't be beaten by a 'gang of thugs and killers' but if we end up withdrawing with anything other than a perfect-or-darn-close-to-it solution where the kinds of attacks we see on a near-daily basis aren't happening the word on the Arab street won't be 'Don't **** with America'.

    Stay or leave, we're screwed either way. The minute we crossed that line of departure without hard evidence of WMDs we bought that mess.
     
  7. Xtremehkr macrumors 68000

    Xtremehkr

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    #7
    Share the wealth and get more countries involved.

    I don't understand the 'we can't pull out now' statements, we aren't getting anywhere, when should we pull out?
     
  8. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #8
    We can pull out now, I'm not saying we physically cannot. But unless we save some face instead of a run-for-the-hills retreat we will face renewed criticism of the US as unable to take casualties from abroad.

    Pulling out has ramifications just as important as sticking around does.
     
  9. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #9
    Linkin

    Do these people still really believe this???
    When asked about the recent bomb attack on the US mess tent in Mosul, Gen. Meyers had this to say:

    No wonder things aren't getting any better. This is like arguing that the US and France are the same because they both belong to NATO.
     
  10. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #10
    Nobody can take casualties from abroad if they're fighting for a lie: the US couldn't do it in VietNam, and the Russians couldn't do it in Afghanistan. But you're stuck with it, and so are we. You certainly need to put in more men, whatever it costs, I'd say at least 30-50,000. It's evidently not possible for the country to be stabilized and secured - as is your obligation under the GC - with the present troop levels. Once you have some measure of control, then you can call a meaningful international conference to gather contributions from other countries. It's a godawful mess, but we're all obliged to make it good.
     
  11. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #11
    The only thing that surprised me, is that people are still surprised.

    Yes, and this is the problem. 9/11 shook people up, so they believe the lie. They want to think the government is trying to make things better, instead of making it worse like they are. As more and more goes wrong, more and more people wake up to the truth, but it's still not enough. And the alternatives are not viable enough for some people. Most people have just given up because they feel it's a lost cause fighting the corrupt system. Luckily, some have not. Here's hoping they succeed.

    Remember Woodward and Bernstein? There's plenty of corruption and mistakes out there to uncover, and who knows what the smoking gun will be. Even if some people still stand behind Nixon.

    I assuming eventually it will swing back the other direction when the right goes too far, and hoping we have another Lincoln or FDR instead of it just swinging back too far to the left.
     

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