Call me a party pooper or a buzzkill but I can’t get enthusiastic about the 4th anymo

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by SiliconAddict, Jul 4, 2004.

  1. SiliconAddict macrumors 603

    SiliconAddict

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2003
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    #1
    I can't get into the mood. This day is suppose to be dedicated to celebrate our freedom and yet while this day goes on we have a ****tard in office, along with his cohorts, that has done more to try and take away our rights then just about any other president. My history of the presidencies pre George the second is somewhat limited so I might be off on that sentiment. Anyone?

    My point being the 4th right now is tainted for me. I can not and will not “get into the spirit”. Because right now the spirit is gagged, bound, and chucked into a cell in Guantanamo bay along with the other people who’s rights are being squashed into the dirt like cattle. Or the spirit is in Iraq at Abu Ghraib being sexually assaulted. Or the spirit is one of the countless innocent people that have died in the war in Iraq to find those WMD. Any day now George.
     
  2. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2004
    #2
    I hear ya. I don't particularly want to go to the fireworks but I'm being out-voted.
     
  3. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    #3
    [​IMG]

    Next thing you know we'll have "Bush invaded the North Pole and overthrew Santa" t-shirts.
     
  4. jsw Moderator emeritus

    jsw

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2004
    Location:
    Andover, MA
    #4
    Well, that fat bastard wears a red coat, which brings up memories of both the commies and, of course, the British. And he gives toys away. That's too Democrat. So, if we haven't done it already (won't know for six months), I'm sure that such an invasion is already in the works.

    And I'm not is a fantastic mood for the 4th as well, as it seems we've forgotten our roots. Well, that and the fact that I'm a bit tired of fireworks and have been ever since late '80s Macs had them as their seemingly sole screen saver. Thank God for Flying Toasters...
     
  5. latergator116 macrumors 68000

    latergator116

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2003
    Location:
    Providence, RI
    #5
    I hear ya SiliconAddict. Also, I am so tried of the fireworks because people have already been setting them off for weeks.
     
  6. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2004
    #6
    I went I'm back. Saw some I'd never seen before. Wahoo. I hate crowds :mad:
     
  7. stoid macrumors 601

    stoid

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2002
    Location:
    So long, and thanks for all the fish!
    #7
    Spent my Independence Day 9 hours at my summer job from college. Not what I call independence. The best part is that tomorrow iis the official holiday, so I didn't even get any bonus from blowing my whole day on that stupid place. GRRR. :mad:
     
  8. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    #8
    I understand. And it is not just Bush that has caused it for me.

    The whole political process is down the drain.

    The feeling of coming together in the days and weeks following 9-11 were too fleeting. Most don't probably appreciate what we were supposed to be celebrating on the 4th.
     
  9. usmcdiorio macrumors newbie

    usmcdiorio

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    #9

    Why don't you just come out and say bastard? You liberals are anti-censorship right? ;)

    Regardless of the current political situation, the fourth of July should be a day when all Americans, regardless of party affiliation should be proud. On the fourth, we commemerate an event which established a country whose unending quest for liberty and freedom has set it apart from other countries in the world. America is a country that allows people of opposing views to exist. Now is a particularly trying time, but the worst thing someone can do is to give up on the country that has done so much for so many. True, the Abu Ghraib prison scandel was a black mark, but I would argue that it did have positive affects in that the detention system in Iraq was reviewed with planned revisions. Crawling in a corner and whining about a problem isn't any way to solve it.
     
  10. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #10
    ROFLMAO! Great satire! Thanks for the laugh.
     
  11. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Location:
    toronto
    #11
    ahhhhh, sweet hypocrisy. exactly what I celebrated on the 4th.
     
  12. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    #12
    The 4th is a celebration of the birth of America. Not a celebration of it's current state. I think it is a good time to look at the purposes and ideals that created this nation and compared them what's going on today. Where are are we, as a nation, and where should we be. I think it is also a good day to put politics aside and enjoy each other as Americans. We spend so much time battleing over our differences we could at least spend one day celebrating what we have in common.

    Becoming apathetic and/or jaded fixes nothing and, if anything, ensures that things will never change. At least not in the way you want them to. Embrace the challenges that lie ahead. Nothing worth having was ever easily gotten.


    Lethal
     
  13. mouchoir macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Location:
    London, UK
    #13

    'so he could tap into the artic oil reserve'

    or

    'because of santa keeping WMD's under wrap :eek: '
     
  14. mouchoir macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Location:
    London, UK
    #14
    I agree about standing by your country in an effort to make it better but...

    What has set it apart from many countries in the world is it's power to impose its will, put trade embargos, topple governments and install US business friendly regimes and generally bully other nations around the world.

    As long as they are not french, or dare to speak in opposition of the government's warmongering for fear of being un-patriotic.

    And i'm honestly not anti-american. Just not a big fan of your government. Have visited the states 4 times, and met some great people and saw some beautiful places.

    Maybe you should celebrate the 4th by looking forwards, and showing the government that you are not afraid of what you believe in.
     
  15. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #15
    You missed out the genocide, ethnic cleansing and environmental vandalism.

    (Some of my best friends are very depressed Americans...)
     
  16. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    San Destin Florida
    #16
    You know what I love. I love the fact that those on the far left can look at the world through "liberal glasses". To not want to celebrate the 4th because of the President that is in office is both pathetic and childish. Are you so alienated by this President that you no longer are proud of being American? Are you so damaged by his term in office that you are ashamed?

    You speak of the people in Gitmo, and ask for their rights? Are you insane? Those people are some of the most disgusting scum on the planet. So, you want Kalied Shiek Mohamad to have a fair trial by jury in the U.S. court of law? There is such a thing as national security. Things that don't need to be discussed in the public arena. Those people's trial are part of that security.

    How are your rights taken away? How many people do you know that have been locked up by the Government? You speak of this President as if he is an evil man. Well, the lies by the left are what is evil. If you are that ashamed, then vote, or leave. But to claim that the Bush administration is responsible for you not wanting to celebrate the 4th. That is just stupid.
     
  17. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Location:
    San Francisco
    #17
    I know that this may shock you, B2TM, but part of this I sort of agree with.

    Not the nonsense about the detainees in Guantanamo, we are stronger as a nation when we uphold the basic human rights of even our worst enemies. Pardon me, but I think that stuff is beyond the pale. It doesn't matter if I've ever met Hamdi or Padilla; their fate and their ability to have their rights respected effects us all.

    What I do agree with, at least in part, is that their are many on the Left who let right-wingers illegitimately seize the patriotic symbols of our Nation as the property of the conservatives. As a lifelong lefty, I hate it when we look at the flag, or the Fourth of July, or any other symbol of our country and only see the negative history. Slavery was a horrible stain on our country, but it no longer exists because people fought and died, most under the Stars and Stripes, to rid our nation of its horror. Racism still exists, but many, many people struggled to end Jim Crow and the terror of the KKK and other despicable organizations. On the recent anniversary of Goodman, Schwerner, and Chaney's deaths it is important to know that these were Americans fighting and giving their lives for freedom. Women are still discriminated against, but women's suffrage and anti-discrimination laws exists because American women and men forced our nation to change. Because of this, I think, we on the political Left make a huge mistake when we hand over to the Right the powerful symbols of our nation. We do this when much of what makes our nation great is because of the changes people who have always been called unpatriotic have brought about. That is true of the revolutionary soldiers at Concord and Lexington. It is true of the Jeffersonians who fought to have a little thing called the Bill of Rights in our Constitution. It is true about the abolitionists who organized and died to end slavery. It is true about the men and women who fought to win trade union rights and bring about an end to child labor, establish a living wage and respect for workers. On and on, it is true of too many people to allow conservatives to rewrite history and forget their sacrifice. Remember all of those people and proudly celebrate the Fourth of July. I do.
     
  18. mouchoir macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Location:
    London, UK
    #18
    Sayhey, after reading what you have to say on the matter, I feel I should apologise in part for the one-sidedness of my post in only listing what is bad.

    Of course, there are many great things to celebrate too.

    I just wanted to point out the huge contradictions in Usmcdiorio's post, and how strange and out of touch they sound in todays climate.

    But Backtothemac, seriously – don't buy into the hype. Many of the people held in 'Gitmo' as you call it, are there with no proof of any wrong doing, are not given any sort of trial or sentence, and are tortured.

    Recently four British muslims were returned to our country after months of being held and abused and then just let out.

    Who really is the disgusting scum in this situation? As a nation, you've lost any moral highground for this and any future 'wars' as long as this human rights abuse continues.

    It sets a pretty poor example when Bush takes it as his right to ignore the geneva convention whenever he fancies.
     
  19. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    San Destin Florida
    #19

    Sayhey. You are right. I will agree that they should be afforded a fair trial, but not in a civilian trial. Military tribunals. Now, most of those who are guilty of nothing have been released. However, those there now, are being held because they should be held. As for torture, there is no evidence of that at gitmo at all.
     
  20. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Location:
    San Francisco
    #20
    No apology necessary. I too cannot abide the jingoism that passes as patriotism in my country. The criticisms you and others have raised are legitimate. I've raised them myself on many occasions. My post was directed to my fellow US lefties who too often fall into a trap right-wing politicians set for them and dismiss the great things about our people and our history in their effort to change the direction we are headed as a nation. It is not only disrespectful of those who went before us, but also self defeating because it only serves to marginalize the voices of dissent.

    I don't agree that most of those are guilty of nothing have been released. How can you tell? It seems you are taking this on faith. Nor do I agree that there is no evidence of torture at Guantanamo. Many of the techniques of Abu Ghraib were first tried out on prisoner at Guantanamo and in Afghanistan. I don't necessarily rule out Military trials for some of the prisoners - only that it is not appropriate in all cases.
     
  21. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Location:
    PDX
    #21
    BTTM, The issue of Guantanemo is a tricky one...it is difficult for us to ascertain the current inmates guilt or innocence w/o knowing the charges levied against them.

    There is the National Security issue, of course, but there is also the defense of what the US stands for. I still do not understand why we have not released the British Foreign Nationals to the UK, as they are our ally (in general, and in the WOT). Curious decisions like this make me wonder.

    As far as their guilt, there is a allegation going around about the US offering a reward in Afghanistan for foreign "terrorists". It has been alledged that the local tribesman in Afghanistan simply captured foreigners and sold them to the US for profit.

    As for torture, it has been further alledged that "confessions" of complicity or of "training with Al Qaeda" were tortured out of these captives...the fact that many of the inmates of Guant. have the same, vague, "trained w/ Al Qaeda" charge levied against them could be for this reason. There have also been reports from those inmates either released or given access to lawyers of some levels of what might be considered "torture" going on within GB.

    This is only speculation, I admit, we really don't know...there is a BBC Hardball episode featuring a British Lawyer that is worth a watch imo. You may not agree with her assertions, and indeed, no concrete case can be made considering the dearth of evidence and information...but check it out.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/3869743.stm
     
  22. Laslo Panaflex macrumors 65816

    Laslo Panaflex

    Joined:
    May 1, 2003
    Location:
    Tokyo
    #22
    LOL, that's what I thought, then I realized, maybe he only thinks that way on the 4th of July?

    1 out of 364 isn't bad, right?
     
  23. usmcdiorio macrumors newbie

    usmcdiorio

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    #23
    You're kidding right? I post that America is a place where opposing opinions can exist, offer my opinion, and that's hypocrisy? Think about that.

    Maybe you should celebrate the 4th by looking forwards, and showing the government that you are not afraid of what you believe in.

    True, in my opinion, thats part of what the fourth commemerates. No matter how disillusioned various people are with the United States of America, they simply should not overlook the fact that they can do something about it, they do have a voice, their vote.
     
  24. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Location:
    toronto
    #24
    per your instruction, i did think about it. in fact, i thought about it harder than you had probably intended. my brow was furrowed, my mood somber. others asked if something was wrong. "no," i said, "it is not wrong. it is simply being considered. carefully."

    they nodded and quietly backed away.

    i stand by my asssertion of hypocrisy. yes, you did assert that this is a place for dissenting opinions, but, in your signature, you called michael moore a traitor and recommended he be ignored. though you may pay lip service to his "dissent," you clearly do not respect him for doing so. that is what i found hypocritical.
     
  25. usmcdiorio macrumors newbie

    usmcdiorio

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    #25
    I absolutely do not respect him, nor do I have to. Respect is a title not earned lightly, and I will not pretend to do so to appease anyone on this forum. Again, my opinion. Recommended is far from absolute. Anyone with half a brain isn't going to base their opionon on a signature on a mac forum, with any luck they'll get that facts and make their own opinion, which they can then flaunt wherever they want, because this is America.
     

Share This Page