Can some fights, even big ones in MMA be fake?

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by 63dot, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. 63dot, Feb 10, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011

    macrumors 601

    63dot

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    #1
    Anyway, I am a techie and I worked with a CCNP (tech speak for highly regarded and hopefully entrusted router engineer) at a big Silicon Valley company and he used to be a roadie for wrestlers and rock stars before that.

    While I enjoy both WWF and many rock and roll acts, we used to like to hear his stories about wrestlers and rock stars. We liked him as a boss and nothing indicated he was a liar.

    Among his gigs before his $100K plus techie job, and huge responsibility over millions of dollars of equipment at a Fortune 500 company, were setting up the stages/sets for the MMA events which he said were fake. He also worked WWF and met many of the now huge celebrities who crossed over into acting quite successfully.

    While I know WWF/WWE is fake, even though many are superb athletes and prone to real life injuries none of us would ever want, I thought MMA was more like boxing and thus real.

    I came on here to these forums I like some time back trying to confirm about his allegations of MMA and some of you convinced me that it was likely to be a real, competitive sport. Nobody here was on the "tour" or major network events, but some of you here have trained in the craft/sport but not sure to what level.

    Part of my doubt was the losing "fight" I saw with big name (first big name) Kimbo Slice and I was unsure of the footage. But see this attached footage and see what some are saying about the fake fights/staged fights. Unless this is photoshopped, it looks pretty suspect.

    But the main reason I am returning with this question is that I befriended a wife of a pretty famous MMA star (name I won't mention lest he beat my ass :) )...OK, kidding he is really a nice and gentle person, but she told me even though he trained very hard and had large medical bills as any professional fighter/athlete would have, she told me MMA is fake (even though it appears to look much more real than WWF/WWE, but not quite as real as let's say boxing). Many moons have passed since I first questioned the validity of MMA/UFC, but first a co-worker and now a person I know and trust well (both of who have been involved in the big time events) telling me it's not real?

    thoughts?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FRvAKdhxhQ

    UPDATE: Anyway, as you see my original title thread was painting with a broad brush, and for respect of the sport, I want to re-clarify and same "some", whether it means a few or many (that have been fixed or predetermined). I am sure in the history of boxing, which I would call "virtually" corruption proof but not completely, some fights have been fixed and I don't put it past big time promoters like Don King. The more ambiguous the fights and "unsuspected" some of the losses, the more chances of rematches and income for the promoters, fighters, and networks alike. At some point boxing, at times crossed from a sport to a business, and we all know how corruption can creep into business. Could it happen with MMA events?
     
  2. macrumors 6502

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    #2
    MMA is in no way fake.... one of my best friends brother is an MMA fighter and it's not fake lol....

    and that video proves absolutely nothing.... in the first clip where the "big man" falls, watch his left foot. it slips probably because he is sweaty.... have you ever been in a octagon? ? the floors are slick....
     
  3. macrumors 604

    QuarterSwede

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    #3
    If it's fake at all I'm guessing it's just fixed because the fighting is definitely real.
     
  4. macrumors 6502a

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    #4
    Let me know what city you live in and I'll get my instructor to recommend a good gym for you to visit. You can go a few rounds and see how fake it is.

    :D

    Edit: Just watched the video. Even the "moon landing was fake" nutbars come up with better footage than that!
     
  5. 63dot, Feb 10, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011

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    63dot

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    #5
    I studied a form of martial arts that borrowed from several disciplines, so I know there is a chance that this exists, or at the very least that it was 100% percent genuine in its earliest days. Earlier footage not only seems more brutal, as getting hit by a martial artist would be as compared to a boxer, but some early footage shows some pretty proper form. Some of the new stuff looks kind of sloppy and it does not appear some know anything about martial arts.

    By the time it MMA got really big, due to the money involved and the sponsors, my guess is that there could be a great temptation (post-Kimbo stuff) to have this become fake or at least somewhat staged.

    Unlike baseball or football, it's probably easier to at least stage the outcome of certain fights, if not to reschedule a lucrative rematch. I have my doubts as to all boxing matches to have been fully honest, and we know that even in the very unlikely event of a baseball team throwing a game, it has happened (Black Sox scandal).

    I don't really care, personally if it's real but when a roadie, and then a wife of a well known MMA fighter tell me it's fake, then I start to wonder. It's not as if I just met these people and I trust them. If MMA today is fake (and not talking about the past which was probably fully real and even got the full fire of Senator John McCain battling against it), then I wonder how the fans will react, or if they even care at all where the sport has gone or if it has fallen by the wayside as a WWE form of entertainment. Even the Rock mentions his early training in wrestling had some reality to it when he learned from his father who was in it when outcomes were not determined beforehand. I don't know exactly when wrestling jumped the fence from a professional sport to a big time form of entertainment, but I understand the evolution. Heck, if I was that big, or that talented, I would love to be a WWE star.

    I still know people who either think WWF/WWE is real, or at least get very worked up over it as it were and get into heated arguments with other fans, but the only two people I know in the nationally televised MMA arena are this star and the roadie.

    Unless somebody who works in this field on the pay per view level who is a member of Macrumors straightens things out, I will have my doubts as to whether some or all of it is staged.

    I know martial arts (but I admit to not knowing boxing), but that footage of Kimbo Slice looks too weird.

    I have spent hours barefoot doing many forms of martial arts and I have never "slipped" like that. To me it looks like Slice purposely went down for whatever reason.

    I want to believe it's a real sport, but unless there's something that counters this you tube piece, MMA/UFC in it's almost WWE glitzy format just seems as valid as UFOs and Santa Claus to me.

    The martial artists I know who are on a competitive level would be able to flatten guys like Kimbo and the guy who beat him if that's their "form", and in the first place wouldn't even lower their standards to what looks like a new version of WWE but albeit more realistic.
     
  6. macrumors 6502a

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    #6
    And once again I say, let's get you in a gym and you can feel it for yourself. :rolleyes:
     
  7. macrumors 604

    QuarterSwede

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    #7
    Even boxers can throw a fight. That's what he's talking about.
     
  8. 63dot, Feb 10, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2011

    thread starter macrumors 601

    63dot

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    #8
    I am a martial artist and you are not.

    We are not talking about if it is real at its inception (which I believe MMA was) or if there isn't real competition in small time MMA that is real, but what I am asking is if the big time stuff is immune to being staged. Gracie co-founded our form of jujitsu so I understand that world. As for boxing, I can't put away the thought of corruption (Don King style) and how it may affect MMA. What I see looks more like boxing with some martial arts, but as for the martial arts part, something just doesn't seem to click in that youtube piece.

    I watched the footage over and over and it just doesn't sit right with me. But I don't know if you are a boxer, and I am not, so maybe you can clarify just how the youtube clip explains the fake-looking sequences. Look, I don't care if everything in MMA is real, but this clip, apparently a huge match, looks very staged.

    From a martial artist standpoint, I don't see anything real, but from a boxer standpoint (if you are a boxer) may make sense and maybe you can explain it to me. But better yet, if you can find a major boxing match on youtube which looks this fake, then I may believe this big Kimbo clip may be real and that the floor is that slippery. But what explains what appears to be complete misses on Slice? At least in boxing, in a real match, you see the impact of those punches and the blood.

    Anyway, the real stuff: (or one of the forms vs. the youtube clip)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu
     
  9. 63dot, Feb 10, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2011

    thread starter macrumors 601

    63dot

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    #9
    Thank you, I was trying to make that point clear. I think I offended a true believer. :)

    I think the huge money with MMA, if it's as big as boxing, has that temptation to have fighters throw matches in order to have rematches.

    As much as I respect the fierce fighter Tyson is, I sometimes wonder about some of the ones he lost. I guess I am getting skeptical in my older age.
     
  10. macrumors 6502a

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    #10
    I'm not? ;)
     
  11. thread starter macrumors 601

    63dot

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    #11
    instructor? gym? complete defensiveness?... not words/actions used by real martial artists from what I have seen over the years. Anyway, you sound like what these guys are criticizing>

    http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&thread=1765313&forum=1&page=1&pc=155

    Martial arts is a way of life, not the glitz or trophies.

    Now this is starting to get weird. Are you a young white guy from Jersey? I am an older man, Okinawan to be exact, but I don't try and catch flies with my chopsticks. But like the movie, I don't do belts and neither did my sensei (us orientals way of saying, cough, instructor) ;)
     
  12. macrumors Core

    Jaffa Cake

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    #12
    Woah, woah, woah... what? :eek:

    I'm not having this. Next thing you'll be telling me baseball is real. :rolleyes:
     
  13. macrumors 6502a

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    #13
    Instructor and gym aren't appropriate terms? Not all arts call their instructors sensei and not all training facilities are called dojos. Why would those terms be used when talking about arts that aren't Japanese?

    My BJJ instructor would laugh at me if I called him sensei and bowed to him. Mind you, my karate sensei would have words (and more) with me if I didn't.

    A coworker of mine trains Hapkido at a dojang.

    Different arts. Different terms. None are right or wrong when put in context.

    My opinion differs from yours. I don't think MMA fighters at the UFC level are faking things or throwing fights. That is complete defensiveness?

    What is a "real martial artist"?

    If you are talking about the difference between "do" and "jutsu" I agree that some arts (i.e. Aikido, Karate, Kendo, etc) developed into "a way of life", primarily in the post meiji restoration era.

    I also think some are not "a way of life". Judo, for example, as it is practiced in many parts of the world has strayed far from Jigoro Kano's original vision due to it's emphasis on competition and it's involvement in the Olympics (in my opinion). The same could be said for many arts.

    Other arts never followed the "do" path and have very much retained their combative ways. They are no less a martial art, however.

    I am Caucasian, yes. You got me. :D

    I am also someone who views the martial arts with an open mind. I give as much respect to someone who cross trains BJJ/Wrestling/Boxing/Muay Thai solely for the purposes of fighting in a ring as I do to someone who trains daily with the Yagi family at the Meibukan hombu dojo in Okinawa.

    Cheers,

    James

    p.s. Mr. Miyagi had a belt. It cost $3.98 and came from JC Penney. :)
     
  14. macrumors G4

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    #14
    I'm just laughing at the reasoning "It must be true. A CCNP said it" :D
     
  15. macrumors 6502

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    #15
    You wait 'til he becomes CCIE. Then he will tell everyone he was fibbing.
     
  16. macrumors 6502a

    Tailpike1153

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    #16
    Next you'll be saying all the crop circles in the world have been made by two 70 year old British guys. The true is out there, Mulder!
     
  17. macrumors 601

    mscriv

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    #17
    One point I would make is that MMA fighters come from a variety of backgrounds and they are not all "martial artists". Before getting into MMA some were collegiate wrestlers or professional football players. I would say the boxing comparison is adequate in that many don't understand "honor" or the "way of life" philosophies that traditional martial arts teach. Remember MMA is "mixed" martial arts meaning they take elements from a variety of disciplines and train to develop those skills. They aren't necessarily taking the specific martial art (Karate, Judo, etc.) as a whole.

    I'm a big MMA fan, so I might be prejudiced, but based on the brutality of the sport that I've seen, I would find it hard to believe that it was fake. Is it possible that fights could be fixed or winner's chosen ahead of time, I guess so, but these guys have pretty big ego's so I think that would be difficult as well.

    As for Kimbo Slice, he's still learning to be a MMA fighter. He's a brawler who got paid to fight in the streets and became a Youtube sensation. Dana White and the UFC decided to give him a shot and he quickly proved that he couldn't go toe to toe with the more experienced fighters. I'm not quite sure it's adequate to judge an entire sport by one fighter who's been unsuccessful in it.
     
  18. macrumors 65816

    Mousse

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    #18
    I don't know about the possibility of the fights being fixed. But the fights are limited fights; not like a street fight where anything goes. There are rules limits what a fighter is allowed to do as to avoid injury as much as possible. Brock Lesnar isn't gonna use the cage as a cheese grater on his opponent's face, something that I'd do in a street fight.:p I doubt head butting is allowed (again, something I'd do a end a street fight quickly. Head butt to the nose, fight's over before it starts.)
     
  19. macrumors 6502

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    #19
    What Kimbo Slice fight is that? Youtube is blocked at work. Kimbo's first pro MMA fight against Bo Cantrell was a definite work. You can tell by watching it that Bo threw the fight to help propel Kimbo's career. I will say that fixing a MMA fight would be extremely hard at the professional level. The UFC does not fix fights. I don't know who this woman is that is telling you it's fake but she is full of ****.
     
  20. macrumors G3

    NT1440

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    #20
    This sums it up completely.

    Kimbo is and has always been a joke, so using him as the measuring stick is just ridiculous.
     
  21. macrumors 6502

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    #21
    For years, I've been friends with Kenny Florian. He's not faking.
     
  22. macrumors 6502

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    #22
    I just watched that video and I can't believe that you are making an assumption based on that video. The Kimbo Slice vs. Seth Petruzelli fight was not fixed. Seth caught Kimbo directly on the chin while he was moving forward. Kimbo losing that fight was the direct cause of EliteXc collapsing and shutting down. The execs would never have had Kimbo lose on purpose. The idea of that being a work is idiotic.
     
  23. macrumors 65816

    Signal-11

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    #23
    US bouts are sanctioned by various state athletic commissions.

    Fixed bouts are illegal. Predetermined outcomes are subject to prosecution.

    I think there are a lot of traditionalists out there who would like for MMA to be fake, but that's just not the reality. Arguing with someone who would believe this would be akin to arguing with people who don't believe the moon landings took place or believe that Obama isn't an American. They're not prepared to listen to reason.

    Also, there are some folks here who have a very narrow definition of "martial arts."
     
  24. macrumors 604

    QuarterSwede

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    #24
    That hasn't stopped many a fixed boxing match. I don't care either way. I'm just saying that's a weak argument.
     
  25. macrumors 65816

    Signal-11

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    #25
    The occasional fixed bout is different from saying the entire sport is fake.

    In the US, it's a regulated sport, thus precludes the possibility of the entire industry being fake. Hell, in the US, if there were ever matches like Belfort-Charles, you'd probably see fines, suspensions and bans.

    Thus, I overrule your objection.

    Plus, if you want to get into detail, we're going to have to come to a common definition of such terms as "fixed," "fake," "throw and "carry." They mean can mean different things in different contexts.

    Japan, that's another story. There have been a number of bouts under Japanese promotions that have undoubtedly had predetermined outcomes.
     

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