Chinese calls for ‘de-Americanized’ world

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by citizenzen, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    #1
    It's incredible to me that this whole "debt crisis" is entirely avoidable and is just a product of political brinkmanship. Yet there are very real consequences to these games being played in Washington and the world is taking notice.

    Is China right? Is it time to move away from the dollar and "de-Americanize" the world?
     
  2. macrumors G3

    Huntn

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    The Misty Mountains
    #2
    China has always been the voice of neutrality and putting the good of the world before itself. ;) Although I agree our political leader's actions in the eyes of the world is shameful. I'm starting to view the Tea Party as something out of a Steven King novel.
     
  3. macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    #3
    Can China really cast stones?
     
  4. macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #4
    I guess at least it can afford stones.
     
  5. macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    #5
    How long will that last though? Yea America is in debt to China, but how much of China's economy depends on America? Just asking cause America is the #1 consumer globally. Or am I mistaken?
     
  6. macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2008
    #6
    Until the US gets back to passing yearly budgets instead of Omnibus spending bills and CRs, debating fiscal policy and appropriations will continue to be done around the gates of raising the debt limit and passing the next CR. As opposed to entirely avoidable, it seems to be the logical conclusion of this type of governing.
     
  7. macrumors 68030

    APlotdevice

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2011
    #7
    Ceasing to be the world leader may be the one thing that could finally bring real reform to our education, military, and health industries (eg ACA is still a far cry from UHC). The opponents of which often claiming that our current system is somehow still the envy of the world! :rolleyes:
     
  8. macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Location:
    UK
    #8
    China trades a lot with plenty of other countries other than the US ;).
     
  9. macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    #9
    I know that. But how much does America affect their economy? What would be the impact on China if America all of the sudden fell into a blackhole?
     
  10. macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Location:
    UK
    #10
    Oh probably quite large, but the same applies to everyone else too.
     
  11. macrumors G3

    Renzatic

    #11
    They do, but losing US trade and having us default on our debt would cut their economy off at the knees. Just like every other country in the world, China is betting everything on the status quo.

    It's a tightly wound global economy out there. The only way for a country to prosper over another these days is for them to succeed better than their competition, though ultimately everyone has to succeed in some shape, form, or fashion for it all to work. If one of the larger players default, the entire works come tumbling down, and everyone takes a severe beating.
     
  12. thread starter macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    #12
    From the article quoted in the OP ...

     
  13. macrumors 6502a

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    #13
    I don't think of this as a right vs wrong issue. China and many other countries that are critical of the U.S. have accepted the role the U.S. Dollar has played because it is cheaper than the alternative. The Tea Party (for lack of a better description) is raising the cost. If "the world" goes through with it, it will effectively cost the U.S. around $7B/year.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage

    Not an incredible sum like the Petrodollar warfare conspiracy theorists seem to think. But, not chump change either-- the National Science Foundation budget request for FY14 was $7.6B.
     
  14. thread starter macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    #14
    I'll differ with you in this one aspect ... the internal political conflicts the U.S. is all too often indulging in have consequences, yet it would appear that our politicians don't recognize them.

    The right or wrong isn't between China and the U.S. It's between political factions that have forsaken the ability to compromise and choose instead to engage in bullheaded brinksmanship. That is where I find the "wrong".

    China is simply responding to a completely unnecessary fight that threatens their economic interests and I completely understand their befuddlement and their desire to change the system in order to reduce economic dependence on a country seemingly bent on it's own destruction.
     
  15. macrumors 604

    gkarris

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Location:
    "No escape from Reality..."
    #15
    Now that they have many of our jobs and purchased many US companies... :eek:

    Few of my friends just lost their jobs this past month - offshoring. :(

    I guess the shutdown has taken away what is truly going on.
     
  16. macrumors 68030

    G51989

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Location:
    NYC NY/Pittsburgh PA
    #16
    The main reason the Chinese want a " Deamerianized " world, is to have a " Chinese world " based on their ideals.

    Right now, the American system of mostly free trade with itself and around the world is pretty free and open.

    Do not expect the same with a Chinese system.
     
  17. macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #17
    Is this satire?
     
  18. macrumors 68030

    G51989

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Location:
    NYC NY/Pittsburgh PA
    #18
    Pretty much, ,maybe I wasn't heavy enough on the sarcasm
     
  19. macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    #19
    It's very complex but the Chinese have many concerns. First, they have huge sums of money due to so many Chinese products paid for by America and they have to park that money somewhere. They place a lot of it into American debt (securities). But the threat of the value of those investments becoming less, or worthless, is an immediate concern that I can't disagree with them for feeling. Our economic system is nearing the end of its current lifespan and it would seem in the coming years we'll be forced to redesign our entire monetary system.

    The Chinese also want power. If the Yuan becomes the world currency, they gain control of what the US has enjoyed for so long. They're already making inroads, too, on several fronts, one of which is described here: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-10/10/c_132786974.htm

    China is also pushing for the US to continue to limit or remove weapons from its citizens. They're publicly advocating for it in the media, which to me would suggest if their ever was a larger war that included US soil, the citizens would no longer be the amateur fighting force, which includes many ex-military and ex-law enforcement people, that Asian countries have feared (a gun behind every blade of grass). http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/china-calls-for-no-delay-on-gun-controls-in-u-s/?_r=0
     
  20. macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #20
    Is this satire too? Have you actually read the article you linked to?
     
  21. thread starter macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    #21
    To be fair he did say, "... which to me would suggest ..."

    Though I will agree with you that to infer that from the story requires a huge leap, as nothing even remotely near that appears in the article.

    But it does help illustrate the mindset of some gun advocates ... they see confiscation behind every blade of grass.
     
  22. macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    #22
    Of course I read it. They have their own issues with weapons, murder, murder by weapons other than guns, mental illness, etc. But I wouldn't put too much faith in China appearing the "good guy" by appealing to the US to stopping or slowing the murders among its people. Irony at its best, I'd say, for a country that has a long history of human abuses and atrocities. They want the US to be weaker at any opportunity.
     
  23. thread starter macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    #23
    Then you'd think they would welcome default.

    Yet they don't.
     
  24. macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    #24
    I wasn't attempting to suggest China will invade the US. I was suggesting it would weaken the US against any foreign invasion should something so awful actually transpire. We have historical accounts of the very arms held by US citizens being a deterrent against an attack on the homeland.

    An unarmed citizenship is obviously weaker than one that is armed during a foreign invasion. Our own military faced a lot of opposition from local tribes during combat operations in the Middle East, much of it being just armed locals that weren't part of any organized unit. Their job would have been much easier with an unarmed group of citizens who were not military or opposition forces. It takes a great deal of energy and resources to deal with issues like that.

    ----------

    Of course they don't. They hold too much of the debt to want to see it zero'd out if things just collapse. It's in their interest to move into the position we hold as currency of the world gradually, but before our economy collapses.
     
  25. thread starter macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    #25
    Exactly. Yet you were the one who said ...

    While now we've established that it's any opportunity minus at least one.


    Two points.

    The first, I'll agree that Iraq and Afghanistan prove that arms in the hands of private citizens can be an obstacle to invading/occupying forces.

    But I believe the real lesson behind both those wars is that occupation is in itself a highly questionable end. What would China (or any other country) gain from invading and occupying the U.S.? Simply mounting an invasion across the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean and maintaining the occupying forces would be a monumental task. And the U.S. is so big that I simply can't see how any country could control it. What would be gained by attempting it?

    The second point is clearly demonstrated in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and that is once socio-political order breaks down, the citizens break into factions and spend as much time fighting against themselves as against their occupier.

    I never hear gun advocates acknowledge this point. They always seem to romanticize defending against a tyrannical government or foreign occupier and don't want to admit that they'd end up turning their weapons against their fellow countrymen. Yet when wars break a country apart we see this happen time and time again. That's the lesson that I'm afraid avid gun advocates haven't yet learned.
     

Share This Page