Christians and Homosexuality

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by pdham, Apr 15, 2004.

  1. pdham macrumors member

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    #1
    Ok... I often see / hear people say that Christians hate homosexuals, because of versus that appear in the bible... usually the one in Leviticus is quoted as it was in the thread about homosexuality in zanzibar. Here is the thing, the Levitical law was written for the Jewish people and is found originally in the Torah. As it says numerous times in the New Testimant; with Christ the old law (levitical, Mosaic, etc.) is passed away and superceded by the two "greatest commandments" (see Matt 20 for 1 example of this dialouge) These commandments are "love your Lord you God with all your mind, body and soul" and "love your neighbor as yourself"

    Now yes, I am aware that homosexuality is mentioned in the New Testimant once in 1 Cor. 6:9 - "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, will inherit the kingdom of God."

    But as you can see this verse is saying that unrepented (unrighteous) sinners, and then it lists various sin including homosexuality, won't enter heaven. But there is no disctintion between homosexuality and drunkeness.

    My point is this.. as a Christian we are called to live and love as Christ did. I feel that homosexuality is a sin, but it is no bigger or worse a sin than stealing, lieing, etc. And I certainly don't hate or want to put to death homosexuals as people would like to imply with the Levitical quote. Levitical Law and the New Testemant commandment are two different statements for two different sets of people at two different times. As a Christian I am called to the New Testemant commandment of love. So, if you meet a Christian that hates homosexuals as people, you might want to ask them to take a serious look at there spiritual life. Feeling it is a sin and hating those in it are very different. I would like to think that if I was ever in the same town as Vniow, if she could accept me for who I am, we could do lunch.

    Paul

    P.S. I am not saying that Jews are called to Hate homosexuals, so please don't try to imply that I am :)
     
  2. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #2
    in most cases, christians who hate anybody are not christians

    this is where the term christian has to be clearly identified...is christ living in you as your personal savior, or are you a christian because you are rich, white, baptist member, southerner, american citizen, not a muslim, or whatever?
     
  3. blue&whiteman macrumors 65816

    blue&whiteman

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    #3
    Leviticus also has passages that speak of the sin of eating pork, seafood etc. yet christians still do eat it. if they can overlook the food guidelines of the bible then why not the homosexuality ones?

    its hypocritical..
     
  4. pdham thread starter macrumors member

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    #4
    Thank you jefhatfield that is exactly what I was thinking when I wrote my post


    blue&whiteman

    You missed my point completely. As a Christian that follows the law of Christ, the laws in the old testement are superceded by the Commandment to Love God with all your mind, body and soul and Love your neighbor as yourself. (if you do this you would find yourself trying not to sin) Those words are in the Bible (NT), so I am not being hypocritical. That means I dont have to eat pork and I don't hate homosexuals. I know that homosexuality is a sin because it is said to be a sin in numerous places in the Bible, including the new testemant. But, as a follower of Christ I am called not to hate anyone who sins, but in fact love them more. There is nothing hypocritical with these statements. I know how to act and love because Christ said he is the new law above all else, that means I don't hold to Levitical law, I hold to Christly law.

    Paul
     
  5. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #5
    but christianity is a huge faith with many different ideas

    there are gay churches and gay friendly churches out there and they consider themselves christians...i have never heard them call themselves bhuddists, muslims, or hindus

    and then there are messianic jews who believe in christ but have some of the old jewish customs in their lives

    the bible is clear in some ways and vague in others...if it was written out, let's say like the writings of the jehovah witnesses which go so far as to say which men in the world can have beards and which can't, etc etc etc, then there would be "one" christianity

    but as it stands, the gaps in the bible leave a lot to interpretation and that is why there are thousands of denominations, sects, and yes...cults...within the umbrella definition of "chistianity"
     
  6. bousozoku Moderator emeritus

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    #6
    There are many who complain about homosexuals while eating bacon, but if you challenged them, they would start calling you a sinner. :D

    Christianity is whatever you want it to be. If you don't like one set of beliefs, move to another church, pick up a different Bible--there's always one to please. ;) I still find it difficult to believe that you can radically change the meaning and call it the same book. (Vulgate->King James version->NIV)

    For those who are enlightened, great! For those who want to persecute and claim that you're being persecuted, go away!

    Obviously, pdham is enlightened--even his name has a pork product in it. ;) :D
     
  7. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #7
    that is a bad translation. Only in Romans is homosexuality condemned. THe one in Corinthians is either about pedastry (similar to pedophilia) or homosexual prostitution. It is not the homosexual part that is being condemned, but rather the prostitution, specifically linked to temple worship of "other gods."

    Oh, and fornication includes oral sex for anyone, even a married couple ;)
     
  8. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #8
    As far as I'm concerned and what my faith teaches, homosexual acts are sinful, just like adultery or pre-marital sex, or lying, etc.

    This doesn't make people who commit those acts evil. Nor does it mean we should focus our efforts on condemning them. I have friends who do things I may not agree with but I realize that the choices they are making are their own, and not mine to make.

    Christianity is above all about tolerance and forgiveness. While individual Christians may make mistakes, that isn't a sign that something is wrong with Christianity its to be expected. We are fallible human beings and the whole reason Jesus died was to forgive us of our sins. Being Christian doesn't make you perfect, it just means that are trying to be a better person.
     
  9. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #9
    i went to a very conservative bible college, and as much as one would like to think this is the case, there is no scriptural basis for this

    one famous christian radio host thought oral sex was great in marriage, even necessary, but it had to always be in the context of foreplay...so far, i have not seen anything in the bible saying this either

    and he was into the missionary only position...i guess that's also in one of paul's hidden letters which i somehow was not privvy to ;)
     
  10. SlyHunter macrumors newbie

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    #10
    I think it is Catholics belief that you never have sex except to make a brat. Thus they can solidly defend no condoms, no rythym method, no homosexuality or any other thing that won't produce a kid. Overlooking human realities.

    I believe Jesus equated Homosexuality with beastiality, but Jesus was a man with his own opinions even while doing the works of God. God forgives any sin if you place them on Jesus or so my bible says. That would include adultery and homosexuality. And none of us are without sin.
     
  11. Daveman Deluxe macrumors 68000

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    #11
    While it is true that only one sin is unforgivable (and it's not homosexual acts), we are also instructed not to continue living in sin. Biblically speaking, we should be looking upon those who commit homosexual acts as a way of life the same way we do those that have addictions to pornography, or have alcohol problems, or any other sin that has become a lifestyle.
     
  12. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #12
    Homosexuality is not a 'lifestyle' nor is it an 'agenda'. It's just people wanting to be together not harming anyone else. Just like you and I do.
     
  13. SlyHunter macrumors newbie

    SlyHunter

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    #13
     
  14. zimv20 macrumors 601

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    #14
    absent religion, would people still hate and/or fear homosexuality?
     
  15. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #15
    You're wrong, but it's not surprising given your short track record.

    The Catholic Church teaches that contraceptives should not be used because they interfere with the nature of the gift of sex, which allows for the chance of procreation. To deliberately and artificially block this aspect of sex is considered an insult to God and abusing His gift for nothing but pleasure.

    And Catholics are encouraged to use the rythm method.

    You're not "only allowed to have sex to produce a child," because the Church isn't stupid enough to think that God gave us such a wonderful experience so we could only enjoy it while deliberately trying to get pregnant.

    Where?
     
  16. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #16
    I trump your bible college with Seminary. ;)

    "Fornication" is the catch all word for anything that isn't straight intercourse.
     
  17. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #17
    Jesus never so much as mentions homosexuality. Not once. Go figure. I guess it wasn't his issue.
     
  18. vniow macrumors G4

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    #18
    You have no idea how much I want to scream when someone called homosexuality a lifestyle of mentions the "homosexual agenda".

    ARRRRRRRRGH!!!
     
  19. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #19
    Unfortunately the term "lifestyle" and especially "agenda" has a negative conotation to it, but in discussing this from a religious perspective you have to understand that that is how it may be viewed. Whether or not someone has homosexual urges the act of living with a homosexual partner and/or having a more than a platonic relationship with them IS a lifestyle. It is a choice you make, not to have those feelings necessarily but to act on them.

    I know that you may disagree with this from your perspective, but think about it this way, if you are a person who doesn't believe in God you might consider Christianity to be nothing more than myth. No different than ancient Greek beliefs from your perspective. If you take a religion class at a non-religious school you may speak about that religion in academic terms because you don't believe that religion is more than a persons beliefs.

    Likewise because in this case we are talking about the Christian perspective, many people see the way openly homosexual people live as a lifestyle, because they feel that it is a wrong way to live. No one can say with any certainity in this life whether they are wrong or right. Its all about beliefs. To someone who truly believes that homosexual acts are wrong nothing you say to them can convince them it is ok anymore than you can convince them that adultery is ok. That does NOT mean that people who are Christians and who don't think homosexuality is right should hate homosexuals. Jesus taught us to be forgiving and compassionate.

    The bottom line is that whether you feel it is a lifestyle or not, and you are perfectly justified in holding your own beliefs, other people feel that it IS a lifestyle and because of how they view homosexuality it is a valid view point for them. You don't have to agree with it, but if you want to have any meaningful kind of discussion with them, and try and convince them of your view you have to admit that they have a right to their opinion.
     
  20. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #20
    This is SUCH a futile debate! We have here different interpretations of a collection of quotations from a 2000-year old book which has been translated with varying degrees of accuracy, being used to justify positions on a modern obsession. How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?
    I get the impression that those who think homosexuality is sinful/disgusting/unnatural/criminal are those who are not secure in their own sexuality. What business is it of anyone's?
     
  21. blue&whiteman macrumors 65816

    blue&whiteman

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    #21
    christianity is far too controlling and that goes for all christian religions. I personally think the bible only ever existed to control people.

    the plain and simple truth and logic is that you can do whatever you want in life as long as it does not affect someone else directly in a negative way.

    christianity needs to mind is own damn business and leave homosexuals alone.

    back off bible thumpers!
     
  22. SlyHunter macrumors newbie

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    #22
    Some people have an uncontrolled desire (genetic or not doesn't matter) to steal its called kleptomania. It is easy to understand they have that desire but Christians expect them to fight it and to show character and to not steal. It is called a test of character and some would consider it their personally test from God. Whether it is or not is immaterial.

    Same thing Adultery. Some men would say we are genetically made to "have to" spread our seed as a way to protect our genetic future, or assure our DNA continuity. Another test of character. Christians would expect them to fight this and not commit adultery.

    Homosexuality, some people say they are born that way. If they were born that way then it would have to be genetics. Thus they are not guilty for being attracted to the same sex. They are guilty for following thru on that feeling.

    Fat people genetically programmed to eat lots and lots of ice cream (I know some aint).

    Drunks genetically program to be alchoholics. Just because an alchoholic is sober and goes to AAA doesn't mean he's not an alchoholic it just means he finally learned to fight his own physical genetic disposition and be a man and use his brain in stead of his misprogrammed instinct.

    There are allot of things that fall under this category and homosexuality is just one of them.
     
  23. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #23
    Yeah, hetroseuality, Christianity, war-mongering, tax dodging, lying, corruption, all lifestyles.

    Can you cure yourself of hetrosexuality?
     
  24. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #24
    What utter tripe! Kleptomania, like other obsessive disorders, is by definition a psychological problem. It's no more useful to tell a kleptomaniac to control his or her obsession than tell a schizophrenic to pull themselves together.

    Adultery is a moral question, not a psychological compulsion, except in VERY rare cases.

    We have no idea if it's genetics or not. Why would they be guilty for following their desires? What happened to the Pursuit of Happiness? What business is it of yours? What business is it of the Church? Any Church? Methinks they do protest too much. They should come out of the closet.

    You are, as usual, conflating completely unrelated ideas. As far as I am aware, homosexuality is not an addiction.
     
  25. blue&whiteman macrumors 65816

    blue&whiteman

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    #25
    slyhunter is not even a mac user and has not made one post outside of the ones about homosexuality. he seems like a really fascist gay basher and I think we have all tolerated him long enough. I am positive he is just here to troll.
     

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