Clone Extinct Animals

Discussion in 'Community' started by Mr. Anderson, Jul 25, 2002.

  1. Mr. Anderson Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #1
    This came up as a topic in the private section - but I want to get more opinions on it - there might actually be someone here who knows more about what's going on.

    In Australia there are plans to clone the Tasmanian Tiger - the Thylacine, here's a link

    D
     
  2. King Cobra macrumors 603

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    #2
    First of all, the topic seems to be at least 2 years old, since it mentions President Clinton and not Bush.

    Second, I would not support cloning unless there was an excellent purpose to bring the creature back to life. If it was just for people to look at it and view the creature then it's silly. That would basically be like bringing up the Dodo bird from the dead for people to feed it.

    On the other hand, cloning would be an excellent step to try and figure out how we can use DNA to try and reproduce species of life to produce more quantities of oxygen, water, or whatever is needed.

    Honestly, I haven't heard much of this topic before today, so I would not be quite sure where to start on this issue. But if it takes 278 times to reproduce something dead to life, then that is telling us something about our knowledge and ability to successfully clone for cheap/reproductive usages.
     
  3. Mr. Anderson thread starter Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #3
    It has been an on going thing - for quite a few years. One thing I did learn was that on July 7th there was a special on the Discovery channel - any one catch that? I'll have to go and see when the reruns are.

    D
     
  4. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #4
    That special may be what I saw about it. It really is amazing when you really think about it. Unreal how far medicine has advanced in the last 20 years. I personally would be for it for animals that we caused the extinction of, but not for ones that nature selected.
     
  5. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    #5
    Cloning anything these days is such a touchy subject.

    Did these species go extinct because of human action? If not, then in the Darwinian scheme of things they failed to adapt/thrive and became extinct via natural selection. If so, then a human effort to revive them is noble, but like KC said, what's the purpose?

    Will currently extinct species still fit into their ecological niche? Are their food sources still available? Is their habitat the same as it was when they were alive?

    [edit: B2TM and I are on the same wavelength again. :D ]
     
  6. Mr. Anderson thread starter Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #6
    the tasmanian tiger was hunted to extinction - problems with killig off sheep and such placed a bounty on its head - soon after it was gone.

    Cloning is a huge can of worms - there's a place in Texas that if you give them $20k, they'll clone your pet. Anyone remember Arnold in 6 Days and Re-Pet?

    Scary, scary, scary.....

    D
     
  7. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #7
    If man hunted them to extinction, then I say go for it. Bring them back, but yet, is that still not selection of the species? I don't think it is, and if they can, then do.
     
  8. iGav macrumors G3

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    #8
    Maybe they should focus more on trying to cure HIV, AIDS and Cancer first......... these are arguably more important things for us to deal with over the coming decades.......
     
  9. teabgs macrumors 68030

    teabgs

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    #9
    I think its really funny how the people here are the same people that were discussing this in the private forum (myself included). Where are the others??? come on people, you know youve got opinions....VOICE THEM!!


    Anyway, I say help endangered species before bringing stuff back to life from the dead. Its our fault theyre endangered we should help. Thats my story and im sticking to it.

    :D
     
  10. iGav macrumors G3

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    #10
    I agree......... it's more more important to save those at risk, than to bring back those that are dust.......
     
  11. Mr. Anderson thread starter Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #11
    I think you guys are missing something from the picture.

    We know that more species will be going extinct

    We have viable cells to aid in cloning

    We need to prove that we can reverse extinction

    _________

    It all adds up to the potential of not letting anything go extinct again. Having a high profile animal or mega-fauna in the case for the Mammoth - more interst is generated in the public - therefore more money is available to continue work - than if you were try to save the Siberian Sea Sponge from extinction - not exactly a poster child there.

    I think they should clone the Thylacine, get the press, do a world tour and start getting money to gather DNA and cells from all the endangered species.

    Change the world one cell at a time!
     
  12. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    #12
    Let's take this one step farther...

    Once cloning is an affordable and efficient process, the general public will be more receptive to its medical uses. People wil be able to clone their own replacement organs to take the place of failing ones...or to have just in case of an emergency.

    Once those types of things are general practice, then maybe stem cell usage will be more widely accepted as well.

    People will need to be shown that the process is safe, chep and easy before they accept it for "human consumption". They won't want these tests to take place wit humans.

    Endangered and extinct animals provide an ideal "playground" for these scientists to perfect the process.
     
  13. iGav macrumors G3

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    #13
    Let's just hope they don't bring back the Raptors.......:p :p :p
     
  14. job macrumors 68040

    job

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    #14
    But then are you talking about human stem cell research?
     
  15. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    #15
    Yes, I mentioned that later.
     
  16. job macrumors 68040

    job

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    #16
    Oops..

    Guess I better pay a bit more attention to every single post then. :)
     
  17. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #17
    the danger of cloning is this...

    with the spread of free atoms (and isotopes) in the universe and of game thoery and chaos theory, not really knowing what the lack of infinite mass can cause two things

    1) the end of prime numbers as we know them

    2) cloning mistakes which can make, let's say some ancient tiger, much smarter than humans and thus the new dominant species

    i would basically fear talking tigers and having the human race get locked up in cages as food for those tigers

    who would then man our coporations?

    something to think about:mad:
     
  18. Mr. Anderson thread starter Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #18
    jef?

    you been smoking this morning?

    chaos and game theory - you sound like Jeff Goldblum - Dr. Ian Malcolm - from jurasic park.

    sure there are some unknowns, but it can happen outside of cloning aswell. all dangers aside, its a path we will end up treading - like rower said - beening able to regrow our own organs will be a boon to life preservation - think what skin cloning alone would do for burn victims.

    Morally - its a tough one - but when has science ever been hindered by morals? It might slow things down, but not prevent it. Eventually cloning will be an accepted bio-tech and we'll probably see this in our life time.

    D
     
  19. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #19
    Duke is dead on here. It is a question of morals. It would be moral in my opinion to do everything we could to save life. The question that stems from cloning is whether people would accept death, or would they try to clone those they have lost. Personally, the only question that I have about it is would the clone have a soul since it was created by man instead of God. That is what trouble me. Still it would make life easier for so many.
     
  20. Mr. Anderson thread starter Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #20
    Well, a good argument for whether a clone has a soul or not - assuming that in every way they look exactly like the original person - would be for me to ask you to show me yours so I can make a comparison.....;)
     
  21. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #21
    he.he. good point. But one would have to assume that although identical in physical characteristics, that cloning the DNA would not clone the soul of the person. That would be the real question. Man the right wing groups would loose there minds.
     
  22. Mr. Anderson thread starter Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #22
    i'm not an atheist - I believe there is a god - but I'm also a scientist/engineer so its not easy dealing with the spiritual side of things in the face of tangeable facts and objects.

    But where cloning is concerned, and I haven't really figured it all out, the implications of having/not having a soul are always going to be a tough one to decide on, cause huge problems, clones' rights, etc.

    What I would like to believe, is that regardless of whether the person was conceived naturally, in a test tube (we've already got plenty of those), or cloned, a soul will pair itself/be created/what ever at the time of conception or whenever its supposed to happen. I can't believe that people think that cloning humans might cause us to make soulless individuals - the walking damned/zombies/ghouls whatever. Stupid. It will happen, but its silly anyway.

    If God is all knowning, he put a couple subroutines in THE OS of Life to handle cloning way back at the beginning, knowning it was going to happen. Besides, it the Pope decided to start cloning, then it would be ok, right - ever see Dogma? Infalibility of God and all.....

    D
     
  23. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #23
    But would it not prove God flawed. Think about it. God creates our soul correct. We clone ourself, and thus if the clone had a soul then it would be created by man, thus making us a God. This would not be good. Not to mention that if you cloned your child, or mother, etc, when it died, then there would be two identical souls in heaven, if it did have a soul. That would be a crazy situation.
     
  24. Mr. Anderson thread starter Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #24
    You're making the assumption that souls would be identical - what about identical twins - natures clones - I would have to believe that every individual, twin, triplet, clone, etc. would have their own unique soul.

    And we're walking in a realm I've not often tread - too many problems associated with guessing and making the crap up. Its a faith based ideal, morals have a sway in the judgement, but science will rule the future. Who's to say one way or another, I'm not going to go throw a stone or point the finger. For me it will always be the same - everyone I meet I let make an impression on me - I don't base it on race, color, gender, or in this case conception technique.

    D
     
  25. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #25
    Yeesh... there are several overlapping issues here.

    Issue 1 "Natural selection vs. Human intervention"

    It is an incredibly egocentric arguement to place Homosapiens outside of Nature for the purposes of calculating the survivability of a species we killed off. We are a part of Nature, period.

    Issue 2 "Playing God"

    This one really bugs me. The issue is raised in many ways but always comes back to the question of whether or not it is theologically acceptable to clone, use Atomic power or a host of other techniques. If the central force of the Universe didn't want something to be possible it, by definition wouldn't be possible.

    Issue 3 "Cloning and the Soul"

    Religeous conservatives are terrified to be proven "wrong" by a Clone that survives because they assume that if it survives, it has a soul. A lesson in metaphysics and plant cloning should end this debate. When you clone plants you can only do so many before it runs out of "energy". In otherwords Clones have less soul-energy than conventional organisms. Dolly the sheep was a perfect example.... She died far short of a regular sheep-span.

    Issue 4 " Chaos and Frankenstein"

    This is very much tied to issue 2. There is a basic human fear that we will create a "super race" through cloning and other science that will replace us. Get over it. If it happens it happens. Since evolutionary theory has changed to show that evolution is FAR more rapid than Darwin ever guessed than it has become clear that if Nature wants us gone she'll do it on her own.

    In terms of a practical application Cloning will not be used for tissue replacement, custom parts and the like until there is no money to be had in alopathic medical practices that, by comparisson prolong suffering and make a tremendous proffit.

    Personally I want to see cloning, Genetic engineering and several other sciences get clear of superstition and take us to the Stars. All these things will be key to Terraforming and customizing our species to other environs. We just need to get over our fear of living up to what we are.
     

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