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Discussion in 'Current Events' started by groovebuster, Apr 10, 2004.
Link to article...
Most of what was said there was true.
Try being objective. It's marketshare in computer sales IS hobbit-like small.
Other than that, it has iPod and iTMS. He acknowledged these successes when he said "digital music". But they don't really venture into much else, so they're not indicative of what is going on in the broader scope of the electronics industry. Basically: They're not Sony, which is true.
I know it's true, I was just curious what other people would say about it... ;-)
Good article - can't really disagree with any of it...
I couldn't disagree more. Their own analogy should be the first give away. Hobbit small? Yeah well it was two hobbits that saved all of Middle Earth.
Only significant to Mac junkies? Apples inovations set the standard that all other companies try to copy. The did it with the Mac OS, they have done it with technologies like USB and Firewire. The iApps. And of course the iPod and iTMS. They may not be big, but they have big results and definitely impact the industry as a whole. Who would have thought 5 years ago that it would be Apple who dominated the digital music scene, got the record companies on board to actually allow reasonable use downloaded music and created the holy grail of digital music players. Who would have thought 5 years ago that Apple technology would lead to the #3 supercomputer in the world, built at a dramaticly low cost. In this case the little guy DOES matter.
I saw this article and it should raise alarms at Apple. how low can you go before people and developers leave the platform. Adobe has moved in that direction and only ATI makes any aftermarketcards for Mac. Noticed more ATI products being sold in the macs? I think Apple was forced to this or risk loosing the only card maker for them. There does come a point when market reaches critical. we are there now. The questions is what is Apple going to do about it. The board was asked this last time. Sure Mac junkies cant look past Steve Jobs ass but there are plenty of us Mac users who are wondering what the heck is going on and how do you get billions in the bank but let your market get to such a small number. #9 computermaker and sinking..instead of focus on pods & music i would focus on computers. 98 out of 100 buyers dont buy a mac and this number could be 99 this qtr.
building a #3 supercomputer did nothing for me nor most consumers but making a computer that the masses can buy that meets or exceeds the other guys PCs would. this is where Imac crt won the war 5 years ago and this is where Imac LCD has lost it. One day Apple will either remember the consumer or they will be gone. Consumer is King and we vote with our purchase. Apple thinks its King and lemmings follow. where are your lemmings going Mr Steve Jobs?
I think that you stated your case very well Dont Hurt Me. Now if Steve Jobs and the other power to be at Apple would listen. I just hope they do something before they do lose more ground. They have a golden opportunity this year and near term by WWDC.
You remind me of the old priest we used to have at our church. Everything he said was negative. Honestly I wonder what has caused you so much bitterness in your life.
Consumer is king? Apple sales revenues are UP. Apples profits are UP. Apples stock price is UP. The iMac LCD lost it? Are you one of those people who just doesn't get that the iMac LCD isn't supposed to be the end all/be all computer? Look at the G5 its one of the best computers ever made.
Honestly people are NEVER HAPPY. Nothing Apple does will please some of you, ever, so why do you bother? Steve Jobs could release a Quad Proccesor G5 4.0 Ghz tommorow and you would complain about the price, lack of software, and lack of the 4.0 GHZ G5 in the eMac. Try realistic expectations once and a while. Apple makes great machines, they are consistently rated in the top echelons in terms of customer satisfaction, sales are up, numbers are up. Apple is pumping out fantastic free/cheap software and making amazing inroads into the music industry as well. They can't very well ship updated computers if IBM doesn't have enough updated chips. They can't magically wave their hand and make them appear out of no-where. They can't keep the iMac/eMac line at lower costs if they are putting the highest end parts into it. In short, they ain't miracle workers. Why don't you give them a chance. Apple has been "dying" for the best 20 years according to naysayers, and yet here they are.
i completely agree with you. although cool looking, it never had the same effect as the crt did. consumers decide, not pros, because of the reasons you said.
krizoitz-nice comeback with 2 hobbits saving all of middle earth
You are kidding, right? The worlwide computer market is growing a lot more than Apples revenues and profits! Which means that Apples market share is shrinking. Subtract the iPod's part from the profits and Apples numbers would be written in shiny deep red ink!
You are just forgetting one thing... Apple needs to get a higher market share to survive on the long run. The iMac LCD is not the machine to gain market share with consumers, since it is too expensive. Do I really have to repeat everything about how market share is related to the survival of a company in the computer industry? Apple IS insignificant for the computer industry as a whole. Of course Microsoft is taking ideas from Apple once in a while, but be realistic! Do you really believe that Apple influenced only one significant development in the computer idustry the last 5 years? Please tell me just one. You won't find any! It wouldn't make a difference if Apple is there or not, nothing would be different today for 98% of the market...
Maybe that's just because the price WOULD BE too high? And maybe because the day the eMac would see a 4GHz G5, Intels entry-level processor would be a 10GHz Celeron VII. You get the picture?
Numbers go down in relation to the rest of the worldwide industry. And even in case Apple has "stable" numbers in the US. A computer company can't survive just on the US market. I live in Germany and if you would just have a clue how Apple neglects the european market and rips off the customers here, you would start crying! Just take the strong Euro. Apple charges 20% more for their products compared to US prices at the moment! That's how they keep their balance sheet clean. They make a lot of extra bucks at the moment, since more than a quarter of their revenues are made in Europe! Numbers are up? Just because they don't adjust prices to the strong Euro. It is artificial!
This software isn't for free! I pay it with every computer or OS update I buy from Apple! Or do you think those programmers donate their work force?
Which raises the question, why the PPC is still utilized after years of struggeling...
High-End? Now you start to amuse me! Both lines are far from being High-End! Every ****ty Dell computer for half the money is more High-end than these totally outdated doorstops. A "High-End" designer enclosure doesn't make a High-End computer, especially not in the consumer market! Features are as important as design there.
Apple got tons of chances so far! And they always dropped the ball. One day it will be the last chance. You are right, Apple is dying since 20 years. That Apple is still there doesn't mean that they are not dying! They are just dying very slowly a very painful death...
Keep in mind where the report is coming from: Money. I've never met anyone in the business of making money that was truly impressed with "small", no matter the possibility for "large". Folks in the money business want more money, and want it now. Their job isn't growing Apple's market share, and it isn't touting the OS, it's simply making money. That is what the article is about. I'm an investor myself, and though I have a few Apple shares, the MONEY is to be made elsewhere.
Grovebuster all i can say WOW nice dissection! every point you shed light.
I think a big problem with large compnaies is they become out of touch with the King meaning the consumer/public. they start taking their own path with ideas instead of focusing on the consumer and the public. This was evident with the Superbowl halftime show. CBS/MTV/Viacom clueless about a halftime show that was so out of touch with the mainstream ideals and taste.
Apple is sort of doing the same with the consumer line. its just out of touch with mainstream. pushing for the most part optionless and crippled hardware. So focused on the pro line that they made sure the only thing going into the consumer line was hardware from 2-3 years. CPU,Video & Memory. Yet when imac came out it was given almost everything that was current only held back slightly. Consumers have been heard and the consumer line sales numbers prove that.
How many times do we hear people say i love the imac but would never buy because of G4 or poor video chip or that they have a monitor? Yes i fit into this category. All Apple has to do is sell to the consumer. Do that and they will make a path to Apples door. Continue the we do as we please and you will take what we give you philosophy and market will only get smaller.
The article is pretty useless, yes apple's stock has performed well recently and yes itunes music store has been sucessful and yes its quite obvious that "investors looking for clues about what's happening in the broader tech world would be better off digging through the reports from Intel and IBM." Its quite apparent Apple is not a part of the "broader tech world" of market giants like IBM and Intel.
Apple does not need greater market share in order to survive, they do not sell commodity hardware! The way they sell and market their products is very different than other computer manufacturers. There are many examples in other industries of smaller companies that survive among much larger ones. Incredible growth is not crucial for the success of Apple. As far as apple not making signifigant developments in the computer industry, its all relative. No computer or software entitiy has been truly innovative in the last 15 years, especially in the sense of paradigm changing products or services. Things move forward very gradually -- but you can't say that Apple has not had an impact -- its incredibly important that microsoft has competion in order to keep the industry from remaining stagnant and therefore the market would be quite different without apple.
I disagree, I think Apple is in touch with it's consumers. It's been said many times before, but you have to look at the whole package of what apple provides. The average computer user cares very little about specs -- they just want a machine that reliable and easy to use. When you look at the majority of apple's potential customers most will not care if their machine has the fastest processor or graphics chip and if it did, they probably couldn't tell much of a difference. Nowadays it doesn't matter, there is no "killer app" for the mac that requires a supercomputer. So therefore updates have been slow lately, a speed bump is not going to radically drive sales -- so why should Apple do it?
I don't listen to anything CNN says, their too far on the left side.
They don't need market share? OK... if you think so! A platform that only runs Photoshop and the iApps is pretty useless for the average computer user. Do you really think Apple would last another 6 months if Microsoft would stop MS Office for the Mac? I don't think I have to elaborate... And I agree with the many analysts who say that Apple needs a market share of at least 10% on the long run in order to survive... I am working a lot for software companies and almost always I hear: "Developing for the Mac? Why? No ROI ever, it would be just a marketing stunt! Who cares for a platform that has 2% of the market...?" That's reality.
Look at SGI! They had a niche market (like Apple now) for high-end graphics and video production. Where are they now? You can survive in a niche market for a while, but it makes you very vulnerable, because when a competitor succeeds to get a foot into the same market your days are counted. May SGI rest in peace! Next candidate will be SUN (or Apple?)!
Wow! So Apples innovation is to be the artificial competition (kept alive by MS Office) of Microsoft! You see me impressed!
So actually you do agree that there is no real impact on the industry by Apple anymore. OK, that's all I wanted to hear.
Nobody should get me wrong, I am a Mac-User since more than 15 years and I would hate to see Apple vanish. But what's going on lately really makes me wonder. Quo vadis, Apple?
Sorry... I totally forgot!
Wrong! They also care about the Specs! Because that's the only thing they can relate to when they don't know anything about computers! 10GB must be better than 5GB, because it's bigger! Why do you think the Megahertz Myth was born? Not because of some IT geeks who wet their pants over them, it was the consumers!
So what cosumers care about in first place are the specs and then reliability and usability... and when all the neighbours use the same thing (Wintel) it can't be that bad, right???
That's a pretty courageous statement. How do you know? Numbers? A potential customer stays a potential customer as long as he doesn't buy and therefore means zero revenue. If Apples package is so outstanding, why doesn't everybody have an Apple by now?
You are kidding, right? The killer apps are games, 3D Graphics, video and audio production... you can't have enough processor power for these!
Because as long as Apple is just as fast as the others, why would people consider a switch to the Mac? Only if Apple could outperform the other platforms by far for the same price, it would have an impact on buying decisions.
Happy Easter again.
So could we say a big problem with Apple over the years has been Motorola? If Apple had put its foot down sooner and told Motorola you need to give us better and faster chips or else, instead of just saying its ok dont worry take as long as you need, we can live with .25mhz updates every 6 months.
are you ALWAYS soo pessimistic? it seems every post of yours i read, you're attacking apple, saying apple is going down hill, bashing apple in some other way, or flaming someone else for a stupid fight.
In my opinion, the situation is getting fairly dire, and a pessimistic attitude is a healthy one. Apple deserves to be flamed. They just don't get it. It's the same story over and over again. A great idea that is being marketed by an short-sighted, stubborn company. I've been a mac user for about 13 years now, and will defend Apple to the bitter end, but they're not making it easy.
The consumer line this year has been downright pathetic. What if the G5 hadn't come out this year? What would have been remarkable or memorable this year? The iTunes Music Store? Sure, that's nice, but Apple is a computer company first and foremost, and they have seem to have forgotten that, once again. So many people here have said it: if Apple just came out with a cheap, headless eMac/iMac computer, it would sell huge. Apple really came back from the verge of oblivion with the original iMac, and I think many are still riding that high. It's time to wake up, Apple is not doing well, and needs to take some serious action to prevent a complete market loss.
No, the problem is more complex than that and the chip problem is just one little part.
I guess the years of paying more then my PC buddies for less able hardware, years i have allways had to wait for that favorite program to come to mac if it even did, the years of waiting for that next Mac hoping it would at least match the PC in something more then a blur and the almost year of waiting for a rev B G5 has taken its toll. Apple has removed most my optimism.
It is also incredibly important to have choices in operating systems whether it be OS X, XP or some company that may debut in the years to come. We, as a society, are moving dangerously close to a technological monoculture because of this mass proliferation of Windows.
I read this article Friday afternoon and it hit me like an open-hand chop to the throat. I asked myself why they would take a shot at Apple like this and what ever happened to rooting for the underdog? However, this article is an objective financial analysis and accurate.
I cannot tell you how dead-on this statement is. Apple can drop prices across the board, release a headless eMac/iMac, match Dell price for price but it will not magically increase marketshare. Xenophobia is the biggest obstacle. They should be advertising OS X, informing people that yes you can have PC/Mac households, etc.
I also don't think a headless mac would really help, in fact that might just kill Apple altogether IMO, its with any business, if you sell something cheap you will need more customers to make sure you stay on top of your costs and if that doesn't work out then say bye bye, come on if people were not willing to pay more then Apple would have put the price down by now
Also this thing about market share, maybe Apple should do more but I don't think it's really a problem......yet, Oh yes lets get a high market share like the Wintel world, could it be that the same customers are replacing their boxes year after year? isn't that what the market share reflects, sales, not number of customers?
More advertising should be done, it has worked for the iPod as now alot of people know what one is, if it can work for the iPod why can't it work for the Macs and OS X, people need to know it exists and im sure that some people would run out and buy. For those who want games then stay with the PC, the choice of games for the mac is better then in the past but for now it is still behind.
As for the hardware lineup I agree that something must be done, Im sure Apple is aware of it, they have to be since they may not be selling as many iMacs as before but when we still have Moto in charge of the Processors then that might be a bit difficult. But somehing must happen this year and I will be watching out for something at the time of WWDC
Well you know what? I think you should switch. It's obvious that you will NEVER be happy with what Apple sells, unless they release a 10THz G11 this tuesday, at $400. Oh, and with a Radeon 10000 Pro XT.
groovebuster & dont hurt me, very worthy comments. I dared to post a topic on macuser.co.uk asking 'G5 updates, where are they?' and basicly got insulted by bigots. Below 3% market share is a very very dangerous position to be in for this reason; at that level software companies will not see a return on development costs for software. Apple will have to rely on the hardwork being done for PC versions, and hope the development costs of a quick and painless port can be recovered from its tiny marketshare. The practicle upshot of that is do NOT expect any cool software coming out for the mac before the PC unless Apple have made it. For a company that is a byword for innovation, this ain't good. As a small example, AOL delayed porting its browser to OSX for the UK market for a long time because it couldnt recoup development costs to localise the English it was written in to start with. Once Apple reach a tipping point, Adobe will walk and so will Microsoft, then its game over, simple as that. If Adobe abandon Apple, and Apples iApps are fuel on the fire, I leave Apple, I need Adobe more than Apple.
I am desperate for a G5 update for business use, and these delays are disturbing. That machine has to last 4 years for me, and if Apple go belly up before then, I waste many thousands of pounds.
One HUGE mistake with Apple is treating consumers like inferior beings, no cool CPU's for you riff raff, that's for pros only. That just gets on peoples tits. A consumer into video and games will nuke a G5 far faster than the average pro. The lack of updates is their other HUGE mistake. You cannot do this in this industry. The third big mistake is its pricing.
They got everything right with the original iMac, in particular the iMac 4OO dv. It was damn fast, did everything the PC could do and more, had technology most PC's didnt have at the time, ie ethernet, firewire and good use of USB, it look stunning and (and it is a HUGE and) it was CHEAP.