Continued debate on 2000 Florida vote

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Sayhey, Jul 9, 2004.

  1. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #1
    This thread is for those who want to continue the debate over the outcome of the 2000 election in Florida. Here is the important findings of a media consortium about what would have happened under different scenarios if the US Supreme Court had not stopped the vote counting.

    CNN

    Please feel free to also include discussions of the disqualification of thousands of voters, mostly in Florida's Black communities, if you want.

    This thread is to prevent this historically important debate from taking over other threads.
     
  2. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #2
    First off Sayhey, thanks for opening up a new thread...

    That said, although I recognize the significance of the legal maneuverings around the 2000 Election, am I allowed to say that I just don't care anymore?

    I am focused on November...if it is another close race, I will be looking up this thread though...

    Sorry to contribute zip here...but I spent a good year arguing this back in 2001, and I am tired of it...
     
  3. Sayhey thread starter macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #3
    Absolutely. I'll argue this stuff until the "cows come home" because I think there are lessons to be learned and I'd like to stop it from happening again. I also think understanding our history is important in and of itself.

    I agree with the focus, which is one reason I separated this out into a thread of its own.
     
  4. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #4
    Here is my take. You don't change the rules after the game has started. Period. There was a count, and a statewide recount. Then Gore wanted to have recounts in specific counties that would benifit him. The Court said recount the entire state, but then tried to let each county decide the fate of hanging chads, etc. That was the problem. Disenfranchising voters.

    You can't change the rules after the game is started.

    Furthermore, you have a right to cast a ballot. It is your responsiblity to make certain that your ballot will be counted. To do that you have to correctly complete the ballot for it to become a vote. The people that did not do that, well, it is their fault. Not anyone elses. My wifes ballot did not count because she voted a party ticket, then voted for each office. Her intent was clear, but, it is not up to humans to subjectively and retroactively decide her intent. The system that is set in place before the election decides the intent by rules. And if they are not followed, the ballot does not get counted, thus, it is a ballot, not a vote.
     
  5. Sayhey thread starter macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #5
    The problem with your post, B2TM, is the procedure being followed in the recounts was exactly what had been done in contested elections in previous Florida elections. It is those who wanted to stop the counting, including with the use of imported political thugs trying to storm the counting rooms, that did not want to abide by the "rules."
     
  6. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #6
    I am also concerned about the carving knife that was used around the country to decide who was eligible to vote. I am not talking about whether felons should be able to vote or not. That is a different thread.

    I am talking about people that were cut from the voter rolls because they shared a common name. If we want election reform, one of the things that needs to be done is to send a Registered letter to those that are going to be removed from the roles. Simple enough to do. And the costs can be chalked up to ensuring a proper recording of votes.
     
  7. Frohickey macrumors 6502a

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    #7
    Okay, the removal of felons from the voter rolls.

    Two facts:
    Florida has 17million people.
    Florida, racially, is composed of 78% whites(hispanics included), 14.6% blacks, and the rest are in the single digit percentage points.

    Florida's arrest trends from 1971-1995.
    Beginning at 1971, the black arrest percentage is at 42%, to 1995 and 40%, with a minimum of 35% in 1979.
     
  8. Frohickey macrumors 6502a

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    #8
    Agreed. Notification of ineligibility to vote would have taken the winds out of the sails of this issue. Hope that the election boards learn from this lesson. But why are we not surprised that govt committees screw up such a simple thing?
     
  9. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #9
    Now wait a sec, let me be clear on this. Are you saying that because more blacks are arrested, then what? The cops are racist?
     
  10. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #10
    The lesson I take away from the 2000 election is that our electoral system in the US is a complete shambles. For a country that advertises itself as the bulwarked of democracy to the world, this experience should have come as a major embarrassment, and resulted in an immediate call for top to bottom electoral reform, and actual action to do so. We're probably never going to hear a greater hue and cry over how an election than we did in 2000. Still it produced almost nothing in the way of reform. I despair at how so large a public outcry ended up moving our government hardly a millimeter in any useful direction.
     
  11. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #11
    Just like with the anti-war rallies in the UK...
     
  12. Frohickey macrumors 6502a

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    #12
    I'm saying that an arrested person is more likely to be convicted of a crime than a person that is not arrested. So, if the arrest rates for blacks is disproportionate to their numbers, the likelihood for blacks being taken out of the voter rolls is proportionate to their arrest likelihood.

    A person that plays a certain sport at a high level, is more likely to be drafted by a professional sport organization, than a person that is a mediocre player. If the 'draft' rate for persons is disproportionate to their numbers, the likelihood for 'persons drafted for professional sports' being injured/given multi-million salaries is proportionate to their 'draft' likehood.
     
  13. Frohickey macrumors 6502a

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    #13
    You are right. We should be embarassed. People who can't even understand simple instructions and check the back of their ballots for hanging chads should not be voting.

    Whats next? English lessons and audio tapes on how to safely operate a power saw? :eek: How about a 2 week course on how to safely drink hot coffee?
     
  14. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #14
    I suppose so, at least superficially. People will always have issues with their governments, which, in the final analysis, are resolved at the ballot box. So what if the ballot box itself is broken?

    But that's not my main point. I see this not as a mere governmental policy matter, but as something which is located at the very bedrock of democracy. Does anyone seriously disagree with the proposition that the casting and counting of ballots should be fair, equitable and consistent? I hardly think so. But even when we come face-to-face with the realization that our electoral system is seriously crippled, no action is taken by our governmental representatives to repair it.
     
  15. Dale Sorel macrumors 6502a

    Dale Sorel

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    #15
    Oh my gosh, this thread is just too funny :p

    I think it's time for all you Bush haters to leave the past behind. You're not getting Al "dancing man" Gore as your president anytime soon :rolleyes:
     
  16. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #16
    Dale, you completely miss the point...this thread is not about Gore, it is about the problems that Election exposed w/ regards to our status as a representative Democracy. Of the right of people to have their vote count and be tabulated fairly. This has nothing to do with Partisan Politics.

    I shall let someone else explain better, if they wish...but if you are going to post, please try to contribute to the discussion at hand, and actually read the posts written.

    Thankyou.
     
  17. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #17
    Hang on, the system worked exactly as it should have, and to set the record straight there had never been a hand, manual recount in the history of Florida, nor were there any laws on the books prior to the 2000 eclection dictating how to do it. You can't write the laws after the electioni occurs guys, you just can't. That isn't democratic in the least.

    If the results would have been exactly the same, but with Gore winning, would you still feel the same way? Honestly? No, you would not.

    I have a bit of personal bias on this because I have family that was working in Kathleen Harris's office at the time, my father was a Sheriff in Florida at the time, etc. So, I have a different view than everyone else. Yea, republicans were rude and tried to stop the count, etc. But the recount was, like it or not, illegal, and the FLA supreme court was legislating though the bench by allowing the rules to be made up after the election.
     
  18. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #18
    All, 100%, totally every single solitary VOTE was counted in Florida. As I have stated earlier, a ballot that is not correctly completed is not a vote. It is a discarded ballot according to the State Law. That is why it was illegal to try to overcome that.
     
  19. Frohickey macrumors 6502a

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    #19
    Athens, TN
    I don't remember the name of the movie.
     
  20. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #20
    Well, it is still not about Gore...we (well, I am trying to stay out of it) are merely discussion the legality of the more technical aspects of the 2000 election...right?
     
  21. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #21
    Right. I am not dingging Gore. I like Gore. This is how rediculous it is though. Look at the catagories from a chart from a site claiming that Gore won.

    Valid votes found after certification
    Correctly marked paper ballots

    Full punches
    Poorly marked paper ballot
    3-corner chads
    2-corner chads
    1-corner chads
    Dimples with sunlight
    Dimples

    Dimples with sunlight. Are you kidding? What was the voter intent? How do you know? There is no way to know. A ballot is not a fote. Only if it is correctly completed is it a vote. Now, how do you double this? Make every vote double recorded. Cast two ballots. That way if one doesn't get done correctly, the other will. Or record your vote in a record of inquiry that will only be opened in cases such as this.

    The outcome was correct, legal, and it wasn't stolen. I would say the same exact thing if Gore had won. The system worked. It worked perfectly. Because it was the legal way.
     
  22. Frohickey macrumors 6502a

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    #22
    There is no law against being rude. :eek:

    As to legislating from the bench, remember the 2002 elections in New Jersey, when the Democrats and New Jersey Supreme Court allowed a change of candidate for US Senate after the legislated deadline for submission of the candidate had CLEARLY passed.

    Supreme Court did not want to get into that, for fear of being seen as a repeat of Florida, but clearly, justice and the rule of law was not done in the Robert Torricelli/Frank Lautenberg swap.

    Everytime you see things like this happening, you essentially tell the people that the rule of law is not important, and you end up encouraging lawlessness. The only thing preventing chaos and mayhem in this country is that the majority of the people have respect for the law. Losing respect for the law is a very bad thing. Very bad.
     
  23. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #23
    You are 100% correct. 100% correct.
     
  24. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #24
    gore did what he could, but in a contested election the supreme court could step in and choose a ruling or a dissent...in this case, they stuck with the original count and unless we change our federal law, the supreme court has that much power

    what if they resorted to a partisan body? or to a partisan congress? or the republican governor of florida? as i see it the most impartial body is the supreme court...remember many of the gop appointees have voted towards the more liberal side of things many times...too many for the gop to be comfortable with ;)

    most of the time there is a clear winner in the electoral college so the supreme court does not have to step in but thank god we have a supreme court...if i were them, i would simply have recounted the entire state of florida and make everybody wait for a few more weeks...but there is no guarantee that would have changed the historical outcome

    no matter what, florida was very,very close and with edwards on the dem's 2004 ticket, i think the democrats will get that state and perhaps another...any southern state going for kerry/edwards in 2004 could be the death knell for the gop in november 2004...all i can say is thank the stars that edwards is from the south, and not from the northeast

    but then again a double "southerner" ticket won in '92 and '96...risky, but it worked and we california types gladly went for it ;)
     
  25. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #25
    It is well known that by percentage African-American males are more likely to be convicted of a crime than are white males. DOn't know stats for other races. It isn't that AA males commit more crimes (by percentage) but that racism still exists and justice isn't blind.
     

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