could someone explain ai to me?

Discussion in 'Community' started by jefhatfield, Aug 14, 2002.

  1. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #1
    i have a friend who works with artificial intelligence (degrees from mit and stanford) and since it's for the military, he can't elaborate on it...i respect that

    from what i gather, it does not use data, information, processors, or binary the way that regular computer technology does...he even states that it may be beyond quantum computing...and that ai does not compute or use computers (or it won't when they get there)

    apparently, the science is many layers deep and involves computers coding themselves and "thinking" for themselves and that this technology, as he explains it, is 200-250 years away... at the rate they are approaching it

    i am not a true science head since i don't understand the arguments on why the universe is a donut shaped finite entity that cannot go on forever and we can travel in time in theory, but never in practice???

    so for any of you physics types out there, please, in plain english, explain artificial intelligence to me and why:

    1) it is not data/information
    2) does not use binary
    3) and why, a self-realized robot like yul brenner's mad cowboy, cannot exist anytime soon
     
  2. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #2
    come on, five views and no answers...i don't know jack about ai so any info would help..he he

    and with 5,000+ members, there must be one physics type here

    and also, what is a four way gate in quantum computing?, and how does this "decision-science" mechanism replace binary computing of simple 0s and 1s?

    is it a yes-no-maybe-not maybe thing?

    or yes-no-maybe if you send me chocolate-i don't give a rip thing? ;)

    thanks in advance for any explanations

    (my friend's boss, the senior ai guy, says there is no such thing as ai and it is an embarassment to even sling that term

    ...so many scientists i have met like to challenge traditional thinking to the point where they can't see the forest from the trees and on any given day, they are one step from taking out a schoolyard or sending anthrax letters to politicians and then there is that cal prof, the unabomber)
     
  3. Mr. Anderson Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #3
    You're asking a ton of questions here jef, more than I can answer as well. I've dabbled in a few of these things, but one thing I do know is that there are several ways to approach ai. And quantum computing and computers is not a simple thing to understand - do you know anything about quantum theory?

    Even though in theory a quantum computer is possible, making one is difficult. And then progamming one is even harder. There was an article in CNN I think about a scientist in New Jersey who had written the first program for a quantum computer - only there wasn't any qComputer to run it on. More of an academic exercise.

    You might be better off looking on line for some of your answers.

    D
     
  4. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #4
    thanks duke

    a lot of what i see online is way over my head like the morpho matrix stuff i have looked at and other things scientific

    my background is a ba degree from a b-school and i took a grad class in quant analysis and we studied only the tip of the iceberg on game theory and decision science...the stuff i see on the web that is worthwhile is way beyond what i know about ai

    i just see anything a computer processes as binary information...and how can a ai "machine" process something that is not data, information, or be some form of computing?

    here is an analogy i heard once in a science class that relates to scientific perception and thinking outside the box:

    a boy gets hit by a car and gets sent to an er where the doctor says, " i can't work on this patient...he's my son...send him onto the other hospital"

    the boy is sent to the other hospital down the block and when he gets sent to er, the doctor there says, "i can't work on this patient, he's my son"

    now how is that?

    answer in later post ;)
     
  5. Mr. Anderson Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #5
    that's a simple one, mother and father doctor team
     
  6. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #6
    ah, you got it

    a whole college freshman biology class of 70 couldn't figure that one out

    and now, with gay adoption and marriage (in hawaii), one could be a husband and the other a husband...or one could be a wife and the other a wife, too

    i somehow perceive computers using data, and information, and having the computers process the information/data

    it's just that quantum computing, as it relates only to ai, is not binary, information, data, and is not processed...am i missing something very obvious like the two MDs example?

    also one of my cliets is an AIDS project, and once i sent an email from one of the computers i was fixing and spelled aids with lower case letters and they corrcted me and said aids is something like a hearing aid and AIDS is the disease

    so does ai work (not process) something other than data or information on something that is not a computer?
     
  7. Ifeelbloated macrumors regular

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    #7
    Have you checked with NASA? Unmanned probes and satellites that have to think for themselves? I'd imagine they'd be on the cutting edge.
     
  8. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #8
    thanks, i will check that out but doubt they will give me a layman's course on the inner working of ai...but i will check...thanks:D

    i went to whitehouse.com and they didn't really tell me much about GW Bush, but they did give me an insight into the inner workings of bill clinton...he he
     
  9. wake up Jobs!!! macrumors regular

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  10. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #10
    but you are a tele player like me;)

    what? asks the rest of macrumors:rolleyes:

    i had '65 maple neck, '68 maple w/bigsby, '78 rosewood, '90 rosewood, '90s squier maple, and Fernandez tele maple copy of butterscotch blond
     
  11. wake up Jobs!!! macrumors regular

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    #11
    I got a new Mexican Standard Telecaster with sunburst paintjob, Im planing on switching the lipstick pickup for a seamour duncan hotrails.
    Rock on!

    -GaBE-
     
  12. Taft macrumors 65816

    Taft

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    #12
    Re: could someone explain ai to me?

    From my understanding of AI (which consists mainly of reading articles, Godel Escher Bach: The Eternal Golden Braid, and an undergrad course), the three points you make are not necessarily true.

    To define AI you must first define what intelligence is (I'm pulling this from the material in Godel, Esher, Bach--its an amazing book for those of you with the patience to read it). Is intelligence simply the ability to compute? Is it the ability to draw conclusions from seemingly unrelated facts and material? Is it encapsulated in the ability to observe patterns in complex datasets (the patterns in a quilt or generally in the world around us)?? It is the ability to learn based on previous experience?

    Once you've got a good definition of intelligence, you'll see why there is a huge gap between current computer intelligence and our intelligence. Now moving onto the question of implementation...the view I've formed of this is that there are tons of ways to go about creating an artificial intelligence, but the holy grail is far from being acheived.

    The majority of AI systems currently out there use a system of programmed rules in combination with some ability to adjust their bahavior based on previous user interaction. This can be seen in many video games these days. The logic of how "bots" operate in games is preprogrammed, but the behavior changes based on actions the user makes. Black and White is a good example of this (you actually try to teach your creatures in the game). Also, systems like IBM's Via Voice, use this. As you speak to the system it "learns" how to read your voice.

    Now these AI systems are pretty rudementary, but they display the level of today's practical application of AI. Cutting edge research is hoping to take us much farther. But for now we are limited to our current technology and our current understanding of AI, making a magical thinking robot unlikely for quite some time.

    There are many viewpoints as to the true way towards artificial intelligence. One is that behavior is preprogrammed, but the system is able to modify its own code to alter its behavior in future situations. Thus learning is really just modifying the systems programming. Another viewpoint is that all behavior and actions of a system can be dictated by data storage and the appropriate links between that data. Thus the system reacts and acts according to what its data and links tell it to do. Prolog was designed with a principal similar to this in mind.

    Personally, I think that defining what intelligence is and being able to describe it, is the answer to how AI can be acheived. I think that mathmeticians and logicians will play as big a role as computer scientists in acheiving AI. The current methods of logic in our computers are far too constrained to allow for true AI. Also, figuring out how we think might shed some light into how to program machines to think. Our brain is still in many ways a mystery.

    A final thought...I increasingly believe that AI may very well just be stumbled upon. One day, a system might just start acting in ways unpredicted by code. When that happens the system may be deemed to have acheived intelligence independent of the code that was written for the system.

    I find this topic very interesting, and there is a lot of great material out there on the subject.

    Taft
     
  13. wake up Jobs!!! macrumors regular

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    #13
    I know somthing about AI. The way it works is when a robot or somthing that posses AI comes incontact with any object or situation, it records it to a hard disk presumibly and when it incounters a similar situation , it looks through its database to find what to do in that situation on in that incounter. I found that in a Popular science Magazine article a while ago.

    -GaBe-
     
  14. G4scott macrumors 68020

    G4scott

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    #14
    Alice Bot

    This link may prove useful... What's cool, is that you can talk to a computer. It's hard to have an intelligent conversation, and most of it is just programming the computer to respond in certain ways, but it's still interesting.
     
  15. Durandal7 macrumors 68040

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    Feb 24, 2001
    #15
    I can't help you with 1 but I may know a bit about 2 and 3. I have studied various advanced technologies and AI theroies (both as requirements and hobbies) and I may have a bit of insight. I'm no expert so the part about no data/info blows me away.

    As for not using binary, there is a type of experimental software/hardware known as fuzzy logic. Since the black and white world of binary does not truly represent the world or the way we think fuzzy logic may be used instead. Fuzzy logic is basically interpreting data with variables between 1 and 0 and having native hardware that understands it without translating it to digital.

    The AI being a long ways off is because of the nature of our brain. Our brain interprets billions of pieces of input at any given time and there is simply no hardware out there that can emulate that.

    I'm probably wrong on both these counts, after all I'm just a student and know nothing of what the Military Industrial Complex is up to but I hope this helps.
     
  16. rainman::|:| macrumors 603

    rainman::|:|

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    #16
    hey all, i'm not an expert (obviously) but the field interests me. allow me to make a couple of corrections as i know it... first off, AI does not exist. not yet. Learning software isn't AI, it simply follows it's programming and "learns" what it's programmed to. Same for the space probes, they don't "think" any more than your computer does-- again, they simply follow their programming, even if that means making some decisions... they can only do that when software allows, they know the outcome of both decisions, they just pick the appropriate course of action based on the data at hand, and their programming. Basically an IF loop. For a long time, AI was thought of in terms of the "fuzzy switch", basically a transistor that's got a third position, maybe. i think the trend has gone away from that, but that's what scientists thought differenciated between computers and people's brains. Personally, i find that this definition of AI serves better: The ability to expand beyond the programming at will. 'Course, that raises the question of what will really is. a question for philosophers, no doubt. Anyway, that's about the extent of my knowledge...

    :)
    pnw
     
  17. rainman::|:| macrumors 603

    rainman::|:|

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    #17
    Ah, you beat me to it! damn you...

    hehe
    :)
    pnw
     
  18. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #18
    i'll take a shot

    there are, of course, many different views on what AI is and what it can do.

    in my mind, there are three popular and distinct views.

    1. AI is the ability of a device (likely computer hw/sw) to mimic humans and the way they draw conclusions and make decisions. c.f. alan turing and the litmus test he designed for achieving this (basically, if a human can't tell the difference between human responses and computer responses, then you've got something).

    this technology is available today in expert systems, neural nets, etc.

    2. AI is the ability of a system/device to modify its own "logic center" to suit its own purposes. just as our brains can conceive of something w/o specific external prodding (i.e. creativity), such systems could grow w/o human's fiddling with it. and, here's the thing, grow in a way it wasn't necessarily designed to do.

    i've not studied AI since the late 80s, so i can't speak to current progress in this view.

    3. AI is the ability of a system/device to be sentient. (how one tests that i'll leave to the philosophers). we're obviously nowhere near this.

    jefhatfield, when you ask your questions, it makes sense to interpret the answers in terms of those views. your friend may be working on AI #3, where maybe you're thinking in terms of AI #2.

    that said, what if we asked those questions about our own brains? (the ultimate AI machine)

    1. it is not data/information

    well, it's not, but it's a mass of cells that stores and processes that. i think that would always be true.

    2. does not use binary

    hm. our own neurons act as binary devices -- they're either idling or firing. the specifics of how they fire may not, to some people, be binary.

    3. yul brenner robot

    there are arguments that to achieve AI #3, we're basically becoming god -- creating conscious life from, for the sake of argument, non-animal matter. are we close to that? we're much better at blowing each other up. (oops, got political there :)

    long, but does that help?
     
  19. G4scott macrumors 68020

    G4scott

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    #19
  20. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #20
    A tidbit I remember about Quantum logic theory:

    Quantum particles exist in 32 independant states. The idea being that if each particle represents a digit, that digit could be any value between 1 and 32 with heisenberg adding a zero state just to make things fun.

    AI in any real sense adds:

    "Yes, and"

    "Sort of"

    and qualified logic statements like " Only when I feel like it"

    to traditional logic theory. The whole reason AI is often considered impossible is that math-based AI when used in an essentially mechanical computer lacks a number of basic requirements to "thinking" like the instinctual need for self preservation, procreation and conservation of energy.
     
  21. Gelfin macrumors 68020

    Gelfin

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    #21
    Artificial Intelligence is a deceptively compelling term. The current state of the art in AI is a lot more boring and mundane than making a machine that is self-aware.

    AI, in practice, means building a system which simulates complex human decision-making processes. Generally what this means is programming a large database of patterns. The machine then compares its inputs to those patterns and executes code associated with the patterns that match the inputs. In a sufficiently complex system this can give the illusion of creativity because the system's designers can't easily predict how the machine will react to certain inputs. But it is possible to design the system such that it gives results similar to a human expert in the areas covered by the machine's database. As a result these are called "expert systems." A textbook application of this sort of technology is medical diagnosis.

    Fuzzy logic is a refinement of expert systems which became something of a popular buzzword several years ago. Essentially, instead of directly matching inputs to patterns in a binary (match/no-match) sense, the system gives a rating to how well a pattern matches an input. Imagine a machine designed to process temperature readings, with a pattern that fires if a given reading "is hot." A traditional pattern recognition system might have to define a temperature threshold for the "is hot" pattern. A fuzzy logic system, however, would be able to define "is hot" relatively, so that a hundred degrees farenheit would be considered hot if you were taking room temperatures, but not hot if you were taking temperatures in an engine compartment. This allows a machine to generate even more seemingly clever deductions.

    Then there are neural networks, which are more theoretically interesting, but generally less practically useful than expert systems. A neural network, as typically implemented, is essentially a big matrix of initially mostly random numbers, coupled with a set of rules that define, first, how the system should produce outputs based on the current state of the matrix, and second, how the system should modify the state of the matrix based on the inputs. The result of this is a system that must be "trained" instead of "programmed." A human looking at the matrix cannot determine how the numbers relate to any information the neural network contains, but the system can be trained to produce consistent output relative to input.

    The problem with all these systems, increasing at the neural network end, is that while the machines can produce surprisingly good output in many cases, they do not posess the human capacity for introspection. They can give you conclusions, but they can't tell you HOW they arrived at a given conclusion. This makes some of their good answers mysterious, and more importantly, makes some of their bad answers confounding, and often very difficult to fix. With neural networks in particular, you can't be entirely sure that they're "learning" what you think they're "learning." My AI professor in college had worked on some military projects, and was able to tell me about one where they were training a system to recognize various tanks and the like from photographs. The army took dozens of snapshots of military hardware, which were fed into the neural network. The output results seemed off, and they finally figured out why: The photos of the hardware had all been taken on the same day, in roughly the same area. As a result, when they thought they were training the network to recognize tanks, they were actually training it to recognize sunny days.

    That's the kind of thing you set yourself up for when you're doing AI. It seems really neat, and the prospect of building a machine that can hold a conversation with you is the sort of thing that draws people into it, but once you get into it you realize there's no magic. It's just a different way of telling the same dumb machine what to do, and in some cases it's a much more difficult and frustrating way, especially when it occurs to you just how far off that computer you can talk to really is.
     
  22. Taft macrumors 65816

    Taft

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    #22
    It all depends on your definition of AI and intelligence. You've defined it to be the ability for machines to think like humans. Most define it more loosely as the ability for machines to behave intelligently.

    I completely agree that true intelligence has not been acheived by any machine, but that doesn't mean that AI isn't being currently employed in current software at some level.

    The programs out there right now that have the ability to adjust themselves have aquired that ability through AI research and ideas. They are representitive of the current state of AI in mainstream/commercial computing. These programs provide us the best examples of AI technology being applied today.

    Just because a computer or program doesn't have true intelligence doesn't mean its incapable of some intelligence. AI principles are being applied to more and more programs as the ideas of researchers disseminate throughout commercial programming.

    Taft
     
  23. Joshlew macrumors member

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    #23
    Quantum Computing

    As I understand it, the gateways (paths representing yes(0) or no(1)) in a quantum computer, can be either 1 or 0 not just one of the two. I'm not sure
    how the computer decides which one though...........:confused:

    Pick up a copy of the latest issue of 'Scientific American' to find out more.
     
  24. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #24
    thanks for all the input...it's much better explained than what i have seen from the net in a general search

    the "fuzzy" thing does go quite a ways to explaining how terms like data, information, processing, binary, and computing are very strictly not in the vocabulary of AI, or AI #3 (i take it those terms are for the binary, normal computing devices)

    i know that nature is not binary, 0s and 1s, thanks paul w for your excellent explanation, and the doctor (neurosugeon friend of mine) says that the brain is not binary...therefore, we can't just attach a binary device like a flash card to one's brain, like in sci fi, and do this instead of schooling...though it would be nice

    i know there is the yes, no, and maybe, but i was wondering also (last question) what the fourth "switch" was as it relates to ai and quantum computing...but i will look at your resources and hyperlinks

    thanks again everybody:p :D :D
     
  25. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #25
    wow, i didn't see your post

    ok, off the subject of ai and into guitars,,,for a second

    i had a duncan quarter pounder set in my 1978 tele and both pickups were good for lead and rhythm

    the 1965 tele was only good for rhythm and had no balls for lead (same for the 1990s squier tele...too thin)

    but the fernandes tele and the 1968 tele with stock pickups and bigsby had decent output for both rhythm and lead

    the 1990 american standard tele was good for both but the guitar sounded really muddy and nothing like what i wanted out of a fender...at least the 1978 tele with duncans was designed not to sound like a tele but fender giving me a new 1990 telecaster stock and having it sound like a heavy metal guitar put me off

    right now, i have only one guitar, and it's not a tele and not even a fender...it's an esp/ltd viper 301..kind of like a gibson or epiphone SG and priced in the same range as the high end epiphone SG/G-400 and i paid $519 US for my viper guitar

    if i was more into playing, i would ditch the viper and get a telecaster and my dream guitar would be the ronnie wood signature series telecaster by esp but the $1400 price tag and waiting forever to even get it deters me...i would much rather buy a mid range ibook for nearly the same money;)
     

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