Dead Pixel Identifier

Discussion in 'Mac Apps and Mac App Store' started by davecentral, Dec 6, 2003.

  1. davecentral macrumors newbie

    Dec 6, 2003
    Just been browsing version tracker and came accross a dead pixel identifier with built in burn.

    I want to know how many pixels need to be out for a screen to be replaced by apple, the tester shows that I have 3 stuck and one dead. Any ideas? It's a 12" powerbook, 3mths old. 5'm really annoyed as it cost £1400 from new and to go wrong now make me mad - very mad :(

    For your referecne it's a freeware you can download

  2. kylos macrumors 6502a


    Nov 8, 2002
    search the archives here. Macrumors did an article on Apple's revised dead pixel policy awhile ago. Also, try "rubbing it out". Apparently, quite often a pixel can be restored by a simple massage.
  3. dgdosen macrumors 65816


    Dec 13, 2003
    I see one dead pixel, tried to rub it out, but I don't want to harm the monitor otherwise.

    I called up apples support and they said they'd only change it if there were several or two or three grouped together.

    I've been a PC user (trying to switch) and haven't seen dead pixel issues for any laptop I've ever owned. Is this an Apple problem?

    -new and bit frustrated with Appple
  4. hobbes3113 macrumors regular

    Oct 18, 2002
    This is most certainly NOT just an Apple problem, it happens with any manufacturer.
  5. 7on macrumors 601


    Nov 9, 2003
    Dress Rosa
    My mom's HP has 3-4 dead pixels.

    My pastor's VIAO had a vertical line of dead pixels spanning to the top and bottom of the LCD.
  6. jamdr macrumors 6502a


    Jul 20, 2003
    Bay Area

    Okay, forget about what other people are telling you. If you bought a brand new computer, and it has just a single dead pixel, you better believe that Apple will replace it! Dead pixels are a manufacturing defect, and Apple gets all of their LCDs from high-quality manufacturers. A very small percentage will have dead pixels, but if it does, right out the box, of course Apple will replace it. How can they not? Believe me, I've returned a new computer for that very reason, no restock fee or anything, as have many other people. I'm sorry, but it's incredibly ridiculous and naive to believe that you can't return a product if it has a defect like that.
  7. Gymnut macrumors 68000


    Apr 18, 2003
    Hmm.....well others have had a total opposite experience, not being able to return their computer for this very same reason.
  8. Wes macrumors 68020


    Jun 22, 2001
    The official apple stance (and 95% of other companies that user LCD's) is that because of the way LCD's are made, there are bound to be a few dead pixels every once in a while. If you want a guarantee that every screen will be perfect prepare to pay the £££.
  9. jamdr macrumors 6502a


    Jul 20, 2003
    Bay Area
    I think if you complain enough, they will replace it, especially if you just bought it, took it home and found a dead pixel, and then called Apple right away. I mean, it is a defect in the product, and if I paid $1000-$2000 for something, it better not have any defects. If you explain all this an Apple Store employee, or a rep, I have no doubt that you could get get a return and replacement.
  10. MacRAND macrumors 6502a


    May 24, 2003
    Phoenix AZ USA
    NEVER take NO for an answer from Apple, or anyone.

    Be pleasant but firm, do not take "NO" for an answer. Keep climbing the chain-of-command.

    JOURNAL your contacts:
    Time & Date
    Name of Apple Person (phone #)
    Keep your story straight - who, what, where, when, why and how
    What they said
    What you said
    Try to exchange emails [you won't believe the stupind (Oops!) mistakes made in writing that can benefit you].

    I'm having fun with LaCie right now and they have painted themselves into a writing! Bought their great firewire external SuperDrive and website says
    Toast 6 ($99 value) is included but
    Toast 5.2 lite (already have) came in box - on the outside of the box is printed "includes Roxio Toast" no version number.

    Reliance on website! Contract.

    Remember - They win if you accept NO.
    You win if you refuse to accept NO for an answer.

    Persist! ;)
  11. Kwyjibo macrumors 68040


    Nov 5, 2002
    And for everyone else who doesn't ntoice a problem, don't run these tools they will only constatly draw your attention to these spots and make you paranoid, its not worth it ...
  12. jxyama macrumors 68040


    Apr 3, 2003
    Re: Arrghhh!!!!

    if you expected 100% defect free LCD screens, so many will need to be thrown away for QA reasons during the manufacturing process that the price of LCD will skyrocket - to the point they will be unaffordable.

    if you think paying $1000 to $2000 is expensive now, if everyone expected all perfect LCDs, they can easily double in price.

    it has nothing to do with high quality or otherwise "manufacturing." the inherent process of cutting plates to make those LCD process is just not perfect.

    other companies may accept your returns, but apple's general policy of requiring certain amount of dead pixels to accept returns is a norm. if everyone had the expectation you did, then there wouldn't be any LCDs priced at an affordable level.

    yes, it sucks if you get dead/stuck pixels. but the economic/manufacturing reality is such that it's not simply a matter of getting "defects" fixed or getting brand new (thus "perfect") machine.

    by the way, mine was perfect when i got it in Feb. now i got one dead pixel. this is not a static device - you may have none now, but may develop them later...
  13. MacRAND macrumors 6502a


    May 24, 2003
    Phoenix AZ USA
    Take it back.

    There is a BIG difference between being 100% pixel free when you buy it and take it out of the box, and those dead pixels that "may develop" thereafter. I agree with the position on pixels that "may develop" later, but not out of the box. Take it back.

    Your Apple Store will box the returned item, knock between 10-20% off of the price, and put it on the discounted items table. I know, I've seen "one pixel missing" products for sale.

    Customer Satisfaction out of the box. :D
    :( Reality over time, eased by AppleCare. :)
  14. jxyama macrumors 68040


    Apr 3, 2003
    Re: Take it back.

    not really. it's simply not possible with current manufacturing process to guarantee any kind of pixel perfection. a 1024 x 768 screen has nearly 2.5 million transistors, that's a lot of etching on a Si wafer - a process that has gotten very good, but it's not perfect. it also takes time to ship/sell displays - if you thought there is a big different between getting bad pixels now or later, then the only way to make sure you have a perfect display is for the manufacturer to track the machine until the second you open it. realistic? hardly. what if the exchanged machine develops bad pixels during shipping? how long is an acceptable time frame to allow bad pixels to occur?

    there needs to be some tolerance for error - when you buy an LCD as it is now, it's implied that the price reflects the understanding that there may be dead/stuck pixels. otherwise, the price would be higher. it has absolutely nothing to do with getting a perfect display because it's new.

    if QA somehow misses a display with clusters of dead pixels, then it certainly should be exchanged. but to expect absolutely perfect display out of the box is unrealistic and will end up costing all of us more money in the long run.
  15. MacRAND macrumors 6502a


    May 24, 2003
    Phoenix AZ USA
    YES, if there is one Dead Pixel - Take it back!

    We took an UNscientific poll of only 10 people, but no one agrees with jxyama
    7 say 1-year
    2 say at least 6 months.
    1 says 90 days, no wait, what's the warranty period? Oh, then 1 year unless it's an extended warranty.

    Men often wave the virginity standard when they find the right woman (now that's being realistic), but
    I doubt few would pay well over a thousand dollars for an LCD or iBook or PowerBook with a missing pixel or other cosmetic blemish, even if they love their new Mac.
    Besides, wives (and husbands, thank the goddess) are harder to return, and have no warranty other than that they are single and "free of a loathsome disease." (legal grounds for annulment)

    NEWS FLASH: LCD and Plasma screens ARE expensive, but COSTS and PRICES are coming DOWN because the manufacturing process is getting better and lots and lots of people are buying them.
    One DEAD pixel out of the box, TAKE IT BACK! :mad:
  16. jxyama macrumors 68040


    Apr 3, 2003
    Re: YES, if there is one Dead Pixel - Take it back!

    LCD prices are coming down because the plates they use to make LCDs are getting bigger. this reduces wasted spaces and enables the costs to get lower. it's still difficult to ensure that pixels are all functioning.

    the increase in demand itself does not justify the price drop because it still costs certain amount of money to make them. (if a widget costs $1 to make, no matter how high the demand is, the price will not go below $1.) increased demand is justifying increased investment in improving the way these things are made, namely, using bigger plates - and that results in price drops. not the demand itself.

    yes, it's expensive, but you are not seeing my point. LCDs would be even more expensive if they were required to be perfect. would you pay $1,000 extra to make sure that you have no dead pixels? that is what will happen if everyone who purchases LCD asked for perfection and companies were made to accept returns.

    i doubt even fewer would pay a thousand dollars more than the current price to ensure that they have absolutely perfect displays.

    please read what i write instead of quoting parts of it and bringing up some strange analogies. i'm trying to explain to you why apple (and other manufacturers) has the current policy regarding LCDs. it doesn't help others understand the situation better if all you are doing is blindly repeating that they take back their machine if it has one bad pixel.

    notice that i'm not denying that it sucks to get bad pixels. it does. absolutely.
  17. jamdr macrumors 6502a


    Jul 20, 2003
    Bay Area
    Re: Re: YES, if there is one Dead Pixel - Take it back!

    Okay, jxyama, you make some good points. But could you please stop stating that LCD prices would increase by $1000 if manufacturers made sure none of the screens were defective, as if that is a fact. You completely pulled that number out of the air, and you really have no idea what you are talking about. To calculate the increase in cost, you'd at least first need to know about what percentage of LCDs have dead pixels, and I don't think you know that. Does anyone out there?

    Five years ago, I expected many LCDs to have dead pixels (my 60x and G3 PowerBooks did), and I just accepted it. But if I bought a brand new PowerBook or iBook or iMac today, and it had a dead pixel, I would think I'd have a reason to return it. As far as I can tell, not many Apple LCDs do have dead pixels right out of the box, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that yours won't. To put the question out there--has anyone bought a Mac with an LCD recently that had a dead pixel? Personally, between myself and a few friends who have bought Macs recently, an iBook G3, an iBook G4, a PowerBook G4, and an iMac G4 did not have a single dead pixel. I know that's not saying much, but I just don't think that the rate of LCDs with dead pixels is all that high.
  18. Wes macrumors 68020


    Jun 22, 2001
    Re: Re: Re: YES, if there is one Dead Pixel - Take it back!

    Well that's where you are wrong because the LCD process, if better, is still the same and getting dead pixels is just luck of the draw.
  19. MacRAND macrumors 6502a


    May 24, 2003
    Phoenix AZ USA
    YES, if there is one Dead Pixel - Take it back!

    jxyama, I have to agree with jamdr on all points, including that your position is not without merit, but your argument is not backed by credible statistics or good economics.

    I didn't take you to task for the "$1,000" figure because you asked a question, rather than stating it as a fact, and that's acceptablel. In fact, except for the "$1000" supposition, it is a good question. And the answer is NO.

    Not only would I not buy an LCD that is more expensive than current market prices (by $200 let alone $1,000), I did not purchase an Apple Studio Display 2 years ago when I got my G4 literally because of the "pixel issue", Apple's stated policy (especially when compared to Formac's), and the potential for unacceptable problems, despite purchasing AppleCare - which I did.

    Because of the "elasticity" of the market place, I chose to purchase a 19" IBM CRT monitor for a fraction of the price of a 17" LCD. Lots of people now and 2 years ago have taken the CRT option. I also could have bought a disclosed "one dead pixel" iBook 18 months ago, which was discounted by $200, all BECAUSE I wanted a "perfect" LCD screen on my new nearly $2,000 investment. I'm happy because it is still "dead pixel" free. (Instead, my Combo drive just died!).

    Therefore, because of the elasticity in the market place and the variety of choices in monitors,
    • once I chose an LCD in an iBook (inelastic choice if I wanted a laptop), and
    • once I chose NOT to buy an LCD and got a CRT instead.

    However, today - prices are coming down, quality is going up, and SIZE has gotten acceptable at 20 to 23". The next iteration of LCDs from Apple promise to be even BIGGER and better, including higher resolution and greater contrast, and maybe an even better Warranty Policy on pixels.
    I AM NOW IN THE MARKET FOR AN LCD, and am a ready and willing Buyer.
    But, never with "one dead pixel", especially when it's new, or during the warranty period.

    I also don't like a star * crack in my windshield, especially in the path of primary vision.

    STATISTICS: Good question, jamdr.
    On August 18, 2003, conducted a poll surveying a population of 2,579, asking--
    How many dead/always-on pixels do you have on your LCD/Laptop Screen?
    19.39% responding "Don't own an LCD", and therefore that percentage of those surveyed should be excluded as being without any LCD "experience", leaving a little over 80% (2,079) having a choice of answering either "perfect" or "# of dead pixels".

    jamdr asked, we "first need to know about what percentage of LCDs have dead pixels, and I don't think you know that. Does anyone out there?

    YES, we do.

    66.95% have "none", or (2/3rds) "Perfect LCDs"
    24.05% had "1" dead pixel, or (1/4th)
    21.45% had "2" dead pixels
    02.41% had "3" dead pixels
    00.92% had "4" dead pixels
    21 out of 2,079 had between 5 and 7 dead pixels, but
    01.77% had "8" or more dead pixels (Lucky, since this group usually qualifies for a replacement under most LCD warranties, IF within the warranty period)

    So, statistics show that jamdr is correct in his assumption that
    "As far as I can tell, not many Apple LCDs do have dead pixels right out of the box." In fact, 91% of those surveyed had either "none" or "1", but there was no catagory for a dead pixel right "out of the box".

    It is also notable that part of the public's attraction to Formac LCD monitors is that for the last several years they have had a more lenient "pixel policy" and produced displays with a better contrast ratio than Apple's. All things being equal, Formac should make a killing in the market place, EXCEPT for three things that Apple has over Formac:
    1. Name brand (and recognition)
    2. Superior design (Apple's awards attest to this)
    3. Easy connectivity with Apple CPUs (real or imagined)
    add to this ease of purchase, and a bigger advertising budget.

    jxyama, while your sentiments over practicality and acceptance of something less than "Perfect" are praise worthy, your arguments are not supported statistically and do not reflect the dynamics of the market place, according to accepted theories of elementary economics, and therefore don't hold water. This is primarily true because of the elasticity of the market place and the availability of a cheap substitute - CRTs.

    Realistically, the prices of Plasma screens and LCDs reflect the cost of a "warranty for dead pixels". While it is relatively cheap to mass produce flat screens, thereby lowering production costs, such screens have a high rate of defects (compared to CRTs), which has to be covered in the actual overall cost because no one has come up with a practical way of fixing the dead pixel problem except by replacement. Defective screens with "dead pixels" are waste.

    Hopefully, technological advances will provide us with bigger and better LCDs, and lower and lower prices...cause I want one, a BIG one.

    MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone.
  20. Vanilla macrumors 6502a

    Mar 19, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Would you accept a small scratch on one of the panels of a new car? Would you accept a tiny dent on the hood? Would you accept a minor fading of button markings on a new DVD player? etc. etc.
    I suspect the answer to all is no.

    I find it unbelievable that in the laptop world we are asked to enter into a lottery of anticipation, hoping against hope that we receive a perfect new machine for our hard earned cash and must accept that we may receive an imperfect product.

    In my opinion we should demand a perfect product as a right, not a suggested hope. Sure the price will go up, but then they can deal with the new paradigm and apply economies of scale, improve manufacturing processes etc. to bring that price down.

    In any event Apple has always produced premium priced products so a fresh stance of "perfection or return" would surely command a continued acceptance of a premium pricing policy in the general market.

    Bottom line, for both manufacturer and client to accept a process that churns out a random mix of imperfect and perfect products as the sole means of keeping costs down is surely, simply, wrong.

    Okay, rant over, I'll get me coat
  21. iChan macrumors 6502a


    Jan 12, 2003
    Dublin, Ireland.
    got a return

    my brother recently bought a 15-inch PB and it came out of the box with a stuck pixel, not dead, as it was green.

    it was also right in the center of the screen. He called Apple and they happily agreed to put in a new order for a CTO'd PB. (2gb RAM, 40GB HD, 1.25Ghz...)

    this surprised me...

    but then I realised there is a 14-day returns policy anyways.

    the way I see it is that unless it is perfect, there is no way I'd keep it. These sentiments have been reflected here bby what more people are saying.

    Apple need to be reasonable when it comes to this kind of this. The screen is simply the simgle most important aspect of the While machine in my opinion. The thing about Apple reselling "one0dead" pixel PB at a 10-20% discount is brilliant on Apple's part because they can make money on a PB that NOONE wants!

    the people that refuse to accept defective products will not increase prices of LCD in the long run, they will ensure higher quality control standards, and that is something that will benefit all of us.
  22. MacRAND macrumors 6502a


    May 24, 2003
    Phoenix AZ USA
    Re: got a return for one dead pixel

    Could not have expressed it better myself.
    Actually, liquidating a defective PB at a discount is Apple cutting losses, rather than making any money off the sale. Their other options are to "refresh" it and put it up for sale again (often through Mac User Groups), or to cannibalize it for parts. Selling a PB with a dead or stuck pixel right in the middle of the screen would be hard to do, even at a more substantial discount; but then half price for a PB? that would be very tempting :rolleyes:
    Nothing should be wasted.:cool:
  23. jxyama macrumors 68040


    Apr 3, 2003
    while i will say $1,000 is a number i made up, i do not believe it's too far off. without proof, and you don't have to believe me, of course, i will say that the increase in price of LCDs if perfection was required is probably a lot closer to $1000 than $10.

    i cannot find any sources, so you guys have no reason to believe what i say. and that's fine, but just think about this: 1024 x 768 screen has nearly 2.5 million transistors. (1024 vertical x 768 horizontal x 3 subpixel switches for three colors = 2.36 million) if 5 sub pixels switches fail, you will have 5 stuck pixels and that's a failure rate of 0.0002%. and guess what? apple may even accept that return even though it only takes such a miniscule failure rate!

    many smart people are working on further improving the manufacturing process. but the technological sophistication required to maintain and further improve on already such low failure rate is difficult no matter what and not comparable to much of any other manufacturing process.

    making scratch/dent free car panels has nowhere near this strict of demand on the failure rate.

    and again, i DO sympathize with people with dead pixels. and if it's in middle of the screen, then you should do the best you can to get it replaced. it sucks. i'm just trying to spread some knowledge, that's all. apple is not doing this just so "screw you," there are reasons for this.

    while i am at fault for not being able to provide sources of my information, that's no reason to be completely dismissive. please, if you are not interested in hearing anything but things to fuel your "apple is screwing us all, don't accept anything less than 100% perfect!!" conspiracy theory :D, then fine, i will simply leave you guys alone.
  24. jxyama macrumors 68040


    Apr 3, 2003
    Re: Re: Re: YES, if there is one Dead Pixel - Take it back!

    by the way, i take mild offense at this. i work with LCD-technology based x-ray imagers every day. while i don't have any numbers from the world at large, i think i know a few things about the manufacturing process of LCDs.

    by the way, 90% of end users getting defect free LCD screen does not mean the LCD manufacturing process has 10% failure rate. many, many LCDs screens are thrown away long before they even have the chance to be used on a consumer product. it's 10% of those that pass the manufacturing QA and deemed good for product use that fail, not 10% of all the LCDs made.
  25. jxyama macrumors 68040


    Apr 3, 2003
    last point: would my point be better taken if i said that when apple sells you a 1024x768 screen, they aren't really selling you ONE screen. they are selling you 2.5 million independently failure-prone transistors? can you name one other product with 2.5 million parts, each of which is prone to failure?

    again, all this is just for your information. i'm not going to try to "defend" various policies regarding LCD warranty - i'm merely trying to provide a different viewpoint than "i won't accept a single failure because i'm a customer and therefore, i'm always right." :D

    by the way, unless you notice a dead one right away, the best solution is to just get going and not look for any dead ones. computer is there to do some stuff, not to stare at the screen, looking for defects. :D

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