Disrespecting the Flag of the United States

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by SPG, Jul 25, 2003.

  1. SPG
    macrumors 65816

    SPG

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    #1
    "Respecting the Flag"

    From the US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Sec. 8 (g):

    The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
     

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    zimv20

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    #2
    oops. is that pic for real?
     
  3. SPG
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    SPG

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    #3
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    MrMacMan

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    wow that pretty bad.
     
  5. macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #5
    LOL. Pretty bad! That is funny.


    A small child hands the President a flag and asks him to sign it, or a single parent. If that is all they have for him to sign, and they ask him to sign it, then so what?


    I have a huge flag on my wall that I would love to have him sign.

    Or wait, are these the same people that say you have the right to burn the flag, but not to sign it for someone.:D
     
  6. macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #6
    though i do not advocate burning the flag, i would (and have) opposed any attempt to illegalize it because it's a first amendment issue. i also would not support any effort to make signing it illegal.

    burning the flag is to make a statement. signing the flag, imo, is something different.

    any alteration to the flag is in bad taste. in this case, it seems bush is simply ignorant of what he's doing, whereas someone burning a flag would be doing so with full knowledge of what s/he's doing.

    in the end, i don't think this is a big deal. unless bush becomes an advocate of yet-another anti-flag-burning amendment. then i shall reserve the right to be indignant :)
     
  7. macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #7
    Personally, I think we should have an amendment to outlaw flag buring. The 1st ammendment gives people the freedom of speech to talk out against the government. That doesn't mean that it can be bastardized into what it has become. That is what is wrong with this country. The extreme that the 1`st Amendment has been taken too.
     
  8. macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #8
    Extreme would be making a worthless piece of cloth sewn together in China more important than my freedom.

    I wonder if we could arrest all those dolts who drove around with tattered flags hanging off/falling off their cars after 9/11?

    What about the people who left theirs out in bad weather or overnight without illumination?
     
  9. macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #9
    I understand, but some of the left coast stuff is getting out of control. Freedom of speech doesnt' give you to right to actions. Speech should be literal.
     
  10. macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #10
    i understand the sentiment of such an amendment, though i disagree with it.

    and those are good points above. writing/enforcing any laws would be a nightmare. what is a flag? that must be defined. could i burn something w/ 14 stripes? if someone w/ a flag t-shirt throws it in the laundry, is that a federal offense? what about kids on the 4th of july having a flag painted on their face? do we arrest them when they wash it off, or the face painter? the chicago tribune has a flag on the front page. does federal law now dictate how i can dispose of my newspaper? what if the city burns it?

    it would get _very_ complicated, and for what? isn't the actual freedom more important than the symbol that represents it?
     
  11. macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #11
    No, I would make it a common sense law. I think we need more of that. Basically, if you are protesting any branch of this government, the military, or any organization legal or non in the US, and you burn a flag, you go to jail.
     
  12. macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #12
    but what is a flag? can i burn the chicago tribune? what about a "flag" w/ 14 stripes?
     
  13. macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #13
    That runs contrary to macfan and Rush's argument that speech = money. Do you think campaign contribution reform is unconstitutional because of the first amendment?

    And what is speech but an action of words? Is holding a sign an action or is it speech if it has words on it? Is assembling (also protected), lighting and holding candles for a silent vigil an action or speech?

    The Supreme Court has spoken: actions are speech as long as they don't infringe on anyone else's rights.

    How does burning the flag hurt anyone? No pollution jokes, please.
     
  14. macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #14
    that's the crux, right there. if offends people.

    there are a lot of people who want to control others actions, simply because it offends them.

    e.g.
    - homosexual or other "deviant" sexual activity
    - censorship
    - gay marriage
    - flag burning

    the observer is offended. in an effort to obfuscate the real issue (being offended), those seeking to enforce control of behavior will often couch it in other terms. e.g. god is against gays, you're burning my symbol of freedom, the sanctity of marriage is being defiled, etc.

    my personal views don't try to enforce others to change, so long as their actions affect no one but themselves.
     
  15. SPG
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    SPG

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    #15
    The real intent of banning flag burning is to elevate the flag above a notation of the country to a near religious symbol with power in it's own right. Our government was never meant to be greater than the sum of the people. We are supposed to be able to question it, even rebel against it if it does not represent us.
    Do you have blind faith in your religion? I do, and that's fine. (although I do not blindly follow the church and it's leaders)
    Do you have blind faith in your government? **** no! The government must be open and accountable.
    If we raise the flag as a sacred symbol then we begin the descent down the slippery slope of blind faith in the government where we lose the accountability and the few in charge can then act in their own interest ignoring the needs of the people.
    Some argue that we are already there.
     
  16. macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #16
    Awe, but wait. Some of the organizations that sponsor rallies that burn the flag recieve federal funds. Now, if I can't have a prayer at my high school football game, because it may offend someone, then why must I be allowed to be offended.

    The law must be applied equally. Others cannot be offended by my actions, so why must I, someone who has fought for this country and this flag, be forced to put up with someone insulting my country by burning the flag.

    I would love to see a group of protesters do a flag burning at a Nascar race.

    That would be the funniest thing that has ever happened.
     
  17. SPG
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    SPG

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    #17
    Back to the topic...
    I posted it since I thought it was funny that the same guy playing the role of the patriot doesn't realize what it means to respect the flag. It's in very bad taste, and he should know better.
    As far as who's getting their flag signed, it looks like everyone is wearing work shirts with name tags and none of the hands reaching out look like a little kid's or a single moms.

    BTTM: What do you mean by your "left coast" comment? The recall in California? Yeah I'm offended by that too.
     
  18. macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #18
    Back to off the topic ;)

    No, I think the recall is a good thing. 80% of the people in California disaprove of the job the man is doing. That is why a recall is legal.

    As for the left cost, it is for the policies that exist there. No score in games, outlawing dodge ball, those types of things.
     
  19. SPG
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    SPG

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    #19
    Wha wha what?!?!?!?!? What groups that recieve federal funds burn flags? Please back this one up.
    The prayer at the school thing is question of the seperation of church and state. One of the fundamentals of our government being eroded by your boy bush.

    There is no law against simply offending someone since it is totally subjective. If I find NASCAR offensive, should we ban it in favor of CART and Formula 1?
    I think it would be funnier to bring your NASCAR fans to meet the families of all the victims of US foreign policy of the last 50 years. Actually that would just be sad. Maybe those NASCAR fans wouldn't feel so offended by a flag burning after that.

    BTTM, I'm about to start walking on eggshells here, and I don't mean to offend you. I truly appreciate the people who've served this country in the armed forces, especially those who were called to combat. But when you were fighting, were you fighting for the flag? or were you fighting for what this country stands for? Would you risk your life to save a flag? I wouldn't. Would you risk your life to save what this country really stands for? I would.
     
  20. macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #20
    As for the organizations, I have heard that in numerous circles, but will have to do some digging to find out exaclty the names of them. As for the Nascar stuff, don't take it so literal. Most nascar fans have the Bart Simpson mentality of "you burn my flag, and I will whip your ass". THey still say a prayer before every race invoking the name of Jesus.

    As for offending me. Not at all man. I respect questions like that. No, I fought for the coutnry. But people who make comments about wishing that our troops would die, and stopping supplies from reaching them, and as someone said here recently, wishing that China would invade the US. Those are when I have a problem. As for agreeing with what you have to say, I may not agree with it, but I will die to defend your right to say what you think. However, buring the flag to me is a direct insult to those that have died to defend the country and the flag that represents it.
     
  21. SPG
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    SPG

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    #21
    Gray Davis was elected 9 months ago by a real majority, unlike oh I dunno, ahem cough cough.
    So now Issa comes in says hey my party lost, things are messed up (because of Enron and the bush economic policy as much as anythign else) so I'll dump my own money in to pay signature gatherers to oust the fairly elected governor with my disgruntled minority.
    The recall is absolutely legal, it's just in very very bad taste, and goes against what the laws were intended for.
    Puhleasee! Those are isolated anecdotal incidents in some liberal communities and they don't bother anyone. Slashing all kinds of programs that people depend on for a good quality of life to give heaps of cash to the already very wealthy does hurt people. A LOT of people.
     
  22. macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #22
    Ah, but were the energy problem in California not present long before Bush was in Office, and if it is Bush's fault, then why isn't energy going through the roof everywhere else? Also, California's debt is the largest of any state, and is out of control. Thus the recal may be in bad taste, but again, 80% of the people there are against Davis.

    As for the anecdotal incidents, those are the problem. The state of California will pay for sex change operations. I don't care is someone wants one, but that is not spending money on a program for improved quality of life. And, again, why is it the responsiblity of the government to give money to programs that do. All the government should do, is have a strong defense, enforce laws, and give people the opportunity to better themselves through education.
     
  23. SPG
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    SPG

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    #23
    Please do, since I have a strong suspicion that they don't exist.

    Okay not taking it litterally, since it is unfair to categorize someone over motorsports preference. But do you think that someone knowing, and I mean really knowing what the impacts of US foreign policy have been would be as gung ho on the flag after witnessing it?
    A friend of mine was telling me that to some Buddhists, there is no evil, only ignorance. That anyone knowing the real impact of their deeds would choose the right path. Evil is only the manifestation of choices made in an absence of knowledge.
    A lot of those things you mention like wiching ill on our troops, or an invasion of the US, are being made in total frustration at witnessing what the US is doing to other countries.
    Maybe I'm less offended (don't worry I'm still offended) by flag burning is that I don't see it as an insult to those who've died defending our country and way of life, but as a statement to our government that it should not forget those sacrifices made, that the government is ****ing up and needs to be put on notice that the people are watching and aren't happy about it.
     
  24. macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #24
    What things have we done to other countries that they, in their foreign policy have not done to us? I understand that is 1st grade mentality, but we cannot continue to blame the government of today for the flaws of the last 50 years. Bush actually has the Palistenians and Israelies talking, and peace looks like it may happen. No foriegn policy is perfect. As for the flag, I can understand the logic of what you are saying, but again, having served it is different. When you are in Basic, the flag, and the meaning of the flag is drilled into your head. It becomes part of you. It is what you defend. You defend your flag. To see a foriegn person burn the flag is enough. To see our own countrymen do it because they don't agree with the goverment, says to me that they don't respect the sacrifices of those who have died to keep that flag and this country safe.
     
  25. SPG
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    SPG

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    #25
    California got a deregulation plan pushed through in the mid 90's, a plan similar to what the WTO and IMF have been pushing disastrously on many countries. Enron took advantage of this to mess with the supply that they controlled so that they could profit trading energy on the market. I lived in California during all this and witnessed it firsthand. The power plant I could see from my street shut down, the wind generators outside SF were taken offline along with a bunch of others so that the supply would drop and the price skyrocket. Enron even had cute little names like "Operation Death Star" for this. Enron was a heavy republican contributor and sought favors from bush/cheney when the plan was discovered.

    No they don't. I don't know where you get this crap from. Just because one guy sues the state for this and LOSES doesn't mean that you can line up and get your junk cut off at taxpayer expense.

    It takes more than education to better people (and even that's being cut to the bone). Roads, police, libraries, health care, unemployment insurance, social security, welfare, FDA, FAA, OSHA, and on and on. This is what makes the US a good place to live. If you want low taxes, fewer sevices and a strong defense, I have just the place for you...Liberia.
     

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