DNC here I COME!!

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by MrMacMan, Jul 24, 2004.

  1. MrMacMan macrumors 604

    MrMacMan

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    #1
    Hello guys, just wanted to inform you my parents are delegates so I get to go to Boston with them. haha, I'll check if I can get pictures and stuff, well see yah all later!


    Parrrtttaaayy!!

    --MrMacMan
     
  2. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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  3. MrMacMan thread starter macrumors 604

    MrMacMan

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    #3
    Convention Center

    Thank you very much, I will post many pictures when I get back.

    Oh it will be fun. :D

    I'm about to go to the DNC the actual convention center, I didn't expect to get in, you need special passes. Its very very cool.

    :D

    Oooo this is soo fun.

    I've meet senators and many other people, its just fantastic.

    --MrMacMan
     
  4. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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  5. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #5
    Bill Clinton is ridiculously amazing. I'm speechless.
     
  6. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #6
    I thought that was the finest speech Clinton has ever given, and probably better by half than anything we'll get from the candidates on either side.

    And what did David Brooks at PBS have to say about it. I quote, "It was a so-so speech." Even Mark Shields, the ostensible Democrat on the PBS pundit team, damned it with qualified praise.

    Honestly, these people spend way too much time inside the Beltway. They can't even tell the difference between a good political speech and a mediocre one anymore.
     
  7. 3rdpath macrumors 68000

    3rdpath

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    #7
    i agree, bill clinton's speech was absolutely amazing. i was impressed by carter's speech as well...he was very low key but his points were impressively sharp.

    i had to flip to cspan to watch the speeches because of the mindless/pointless punditry on cnn. it was like wolf blitzer had some bizarre case of oral flatulence...
     
  8. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #8
    All of tonight's speeches were good. Clinton's was historic. It will likely be the finest speech of the entire campaign, although Edwards might come close. The reason Edwards can't really meet it yet is because he doesn't have the stature of Clinton. Not only were the words brilliant, but it was Bill Clinton saying them, which means a lot.

    Clinton smacked of Mark Antony tonight. His backhanded compliments for the Bush administration were reminiscient of Mark Antony's "Brutus is an honorable man" speech. He twisted the knife ever so gently, and with a smile ever so sweet.

    Gore was also a surprise. He's got fire in his belly and he's a much better speaker now than he ever was as VP. I wish he'd have been as passionate in 2000 as he was tonight. If he'd spoken with similar force and style, I think he could have won.
     
  9. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #9
    Yes. Yes. Probably. Probably. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. He Did.
     
  10. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #10
    Correction, he could have won by a large enough of margin not to have gotten screwed by the supreme court.
     
  11. Durandal7 macrumors 68040

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    #11
    I missed Gore, was he in the first hour of coverage on PBS? I wasn't able to start watching until around when Carter came on. I was under the impression he was going to be in the same hour as the Clintons.
     
  12. Waluigi macrumors 6502

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    #12
    I was blown away by Clinton's speech. It was so soothing after Hillary's speech that sounded like a run-on cheer at a football game. Carter was also fantastic, especially on his post-speech interview on PBS. Gore too did a lot of good. Jon Stewart was also on MSNBC after the Clinton Speech, and was fantastic.

    Favorite Lines tonight:
    "We cannot lead if our leaders mislead"--Carter

    "Let's make sure not only that the Supreme Court does not pick the next president, but also that this president is not the one who picks the next Supreme Court"--Gore

    "Strength and wisdom are not opposing values. They go hand in hand"--Clinton

    --Waluigi
     
  13. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #13
    i guess i'm just cynical, but i got sick of listening to clinton

    i see the whole convention as a kerry lovefest, based on what? polls show that most people don't even know what he stands for. i'm not one to call him a flip flopper (i personally believe it's a *good* thing to grow and become wiser and thus change beliefs at times)... but at the same time, it's unclear where he stands on some things. or, i know where he stands, and it doesn't impress me.

    so, while clinton is surely a good speaker (look at all the smart people here who creamed their pants over his speech. hah), i see it all as just rhetoric that is washed away in my mind by the atrocities that clinton committed (as has most every us president).. not comparable to bush, but not as sparkling clean as his teeth....
     
  14. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #14
    Clinton was up there to illustrate some of the differences between the Republicans and the Democrats, not to set out an agenda for John Kerry. That's Kerry's job, and we'll see Thursday how well he accomplishes the task. Maybe you expect something else from a speech, but I thought Clinton made his political pitch masterfully.
     
  15. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #15
    ok, i realize this.

    my points are along these lines

    1. i can't get excited about a party, especially when history shows that it often doesn't back up what it claims

    2. i can't get excited about what i know about kerry's policies, so someone praising him does nothing for me

    see what i'm saying?
     
  16. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #16
    Erm.... History demonstrates quite well...


    To use Clinton's examples: John Adams, who arguably gave us the Bill of Rights and the Seperation of Powers. John Kennedy, who arguably brought those same Articles into the modern age.
     
  17. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #17
    Sure. I'm not a party member, so I don't get too excited by any political speech from that standpoint. But I think no matter how cynical you or I might have become, that we'd have to admit that real differences do exist between the parties. It was Clinton's task to illustrate these differences in broad strokes, which I think he accomplished with remarkable clarity and style.
     
  18. Lyle macrumors 68000

    Lyle

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    #18
    Yes, putting my political differences aside, I must admit that it was a fantastic speech. And contrary to a lot of predictions, Clinton didn't use his time to try to bring glory to himself, but instead gave his thoughts on the differences between the parties.
     
  19. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #19
    yeah, i guess he succeeded at that..

    my thinking is that the republican party is horrible (in general... there are some reps that are ok). and the democratic party is very bad. (again, a few i like)... so differences between poop and piss don't really do it for me. hah

    was that off color?


    mischief - lincoln was a republican, no?

    so?????

    what happened x years ago means little now
     
  20. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #20
    Lincoln enacted a program that is remembered as an equal rights provision. However, the backing for Emancipation was rich, white, non-slave-owning northerners who owned industrial businesses.

    Had Emancipation not been an issue the results would have been dramatic: There would have been no Civil War. The South would have Industrialized with slave labor and could have quite easily out competed their northern competitors who used (poorly) paid labor.

    It's important to remember that Emancipation caused the most dammaging war in US history, did permanent dammage to the South's economy and psyche, did almost nothing for the "freed" slaves beyond (granted this is HUGE by itself) no longer being property and served (in many respects) to de-regulate "free market" (read: wage) slavery.

    Between Reconstruction and the Civil Rights Movement a century later African Americans were nearly as screwed as they were to begin with along with any recently immigrated ethnic group.

    In many respects the original Emancipation legislation just served to create a huge indentured labor pool that could span more than just the former slave lines.

    The Republicans of the north got exactly what they wanted: A HUGE influx of dirt cheap labor that was willing to work for far less than their existing workers that were, by definition no longer working for their Southern competitors.
     
  21. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #21
    hmm. ok

    so in other words, we can find ways to pretend that because joe blow was a democrat 100 years ago, and was great, all democrats are great now! whooooo!
     
  22. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #22
    Erm... no.

    To quote Monty Python: "Universal Affirmatives can only be partially converted."

    To whit: If you recall test taking strategy you may remember that any statement in true/false mode in which the word "all" appears is usually automatically False.

    I was making the point that your statement regarding History's irrelevance is quite brazenly false and that, generally speaking, when comparing the Democrats and Republicans (Party formerly known as Anti-Democrats) the distinctions in policy and attitude go ALL THE WAY BACK.

    Benjamin Franklyn was arguably the first Republican and supported a Monarchy and a Caste system. After it became clear that a Democracy was to be the format of choice he argued to have Voting restricted to a wealthy elite.

    John Adams was arguably the first Democrat and countered his friend's efforts with Populist ideology through the entire formation of the Union.

    History can teach you a lot if you bother to check it.
     
  23. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #23
    I don't know quite how we got off onto historical points, but just for the record, the Emancipation Proclamation was signed on January 1, 1863, which was during the Civil War and so not the cause of it. The North was in serious danger of losing the war at that point, so Lincoln pushed for the emancipation of the slaves as a device to give the North some clear cause for their fight, beyond the preservation of the United States as a union. The effects of the reconstruction era are an entire different matter.
     
  24. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #24
    As I recall the issue of slavery (and in particular ending the legality of the practice) was the cause for the war. Emancipation in the form it finally took was, indeed an eleventh hour attempt to salvage the war but the money behind the pre existing movement's (for the ending of Slavery) success in the flowed from industrialists in the North. Am I missing something?
     
  25. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #25
    Jello, I wonder if your dislike of the current system (and it's two parties) is overshadowing the very real differences between the Rep. and the Dem. and the effect this difference will have. I also wonder if you are paying sufficient attention to the character of the individual, separate from party and system affiliation.

    While you vocally support Nader, is he as an individual, that much better than Kerry if yo look beyond the latter's involvement with the US political system? Before Kerry entered the Senate, he did quite a bit with regards to Veterans, and more as a Prosecutor, which was not necessarily beholden to Party politics. Edwards, as a trial lawyer also made a difference in people's lives. Nader, as a consumer advocate, did accomplish much and I admire him for that...but what makes them so different, other than the fact that the Former duo is playing the "game"?

    If it is the system that irks you, with the concentration of money, the existance of established parties and Fundraising Networks (and Conventions)...why blame the individual members of this system.

    Just because Nader is on the outside of all this, running as an independent, does not make him a better candidate, nor does the fact that he takes positions that are unpopular to candidates from the established parties for reasons of pragmatism (ie voters are not ready, the nature of the system).

    To quote (badly) from the movie "The Matrix":

    " although these are the people we are trying to save, until we do so, they are potentially our enemy. Many people are so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight with their very lives to save it..."

    The point being, is that as noble as your push for an Independent Candidate and the positions he brings to the table, the public, nor the Political system is ready for such a dramatic change. Many will fight tooth-and-nail against such a development, if they even care to give it credence in the first place. It is too much a step into the unknown for many within or out of government to handle, regardless of merit.

    As I have advocated before, if you are commited to the introduction of third-party candidates into the system and the subsequent reform implied in such a change, you must be willing to work incrementally and to have patience. Starting with a President is too much, too quickly and will never take.

    What will work is the advancement of Independent Candidates at the local and State level to begin with, where the influence of money is less, and the attention on the candidates is more focused. Concentrate on Governorships, Mayoral Candidates, State Congressmen. Then work on Federal Representatives and Congressmen. Once these candidates are given a chance to prove themselves at each level, they and the possibilities they represent (ie Third-parties) will be given respect and legitimacy by both the voters and the Political System. They will also be given money and support to run in the bigger contests. It is only after this actual and perceptual framework/infrastructure is built, that a third-party Presidential Candidate will have a real chance.

    I know it is frustrating to have to deal with a system you do not like or respect, but ideology and hope are not enough. I feel you must be patient and work incrementally to reach your goals, as great is it might feel to work in broad and bold moves. While you may find some kind of moral victory in Nader receiving 5% of the Presidential vote, and some kind of further galvanization of your position on the unfairness/imperfectness of the system by this result, you have acheived relatively little in terms of advancing your goals with regards to the American Public.

    Just my opinion, jello...I do not hope you take this personally, I just find this type of idealism at the expense of pragmatism foolish. This has nothing to do with the merits or Nader or his policies, I find the latter especially decent, it has to do with the manner in which you approach the problem...
     

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